[Q] ForGG's opening vs Z - Page 6

On January 22 2012 23:35 Arisen wrote:
Some of the responses to this thread really aren't correct. I'm not saying this to be a dick, but to make sure people aren't listening to incorrect information and starting to believe you need to "hard counter" this build blindly or something.

So, banshee followups are probably the second or third most common followup to reactor hellion epand. I'm not going to give you the timings I use, just the thought process behind them. Now, I haven't watched this build on fOrGG's, stream, but I've seen several people do very similar builds.

The first thing you need to know is that every good zerg hides lings. If terran comes out with reactor hellions and all 4 of your lings get roasted right away, you've got no map vision and you have to sac an overlord very quickly to see if he's going for more stuff off one base or if he's taking a quick CC. Quick CC is probably the safest and most common way to play after reactor hellion, but obviously since he has full map control with his hellions, a quick followup with an all-in is very powerful as the zerg is generally droning behind 3 queens and spinecrawler.

So step one is to take your first 4 lings and put 1 or 2 of them somewhere obscure so you can move them to his natural while he's holding back your creep with hellions to see whats up.

So, if he doesn't go gas first, he should build 2 marines, then a reactor. Hence, if you poke up when the reactor should be building and it's where it should be HP wise and there's 2 marines, you know difinitively that's what's up. If he has less and the reactor is at more HP, he went gas first.

Play the build or watch pro VODs/Reps and figure out when his CC is supposed to start. Send your lings in to his natural and see if he's building it. Now, this isn't surefire because some people build their CC in their main to try to fool you into building more defenses, but don't freak out just yet. Poke up with your ling to see what's at his choke. Typically, the standard build goes rine=OC, fact, 1 more rine, reactor.4 hellions + CC+Tech Lab, switch fact+2 more rax.

If he's not building his CC at his nat and you poke up the ramp, the first thing you look at is that reactor. What's on it? If it's a fact, he's following up with more hellions and dealying his CC. If this is what he's doing, what are your options versus a lot of hellions? Roaches/banes/and queens are the only thing you have before lair tech that can trade cost effectively with hellions; but remember that he could follow up with hellion/marauder, and your roaches are a liablity. In this case, you can afford to build more defense, and maybe sac an overlord if you're really uncomfortable (though I'd wait). You have to know if he's still making hellions, he's got access to a starport, and thus banshees. Remember that cloak doesn't shit out from thesky though, it takes time/resources. Generally if I see one base after reactor hellions, I get a 4th queen and maybe a second spine because I don't want to make roaches if possible.

Time to do more testing! Do the reactor hellion build and find out when a CC in your main gets sent down to your nat. Time to check with those lings again (Your lingspeed is done at this point for sure unless you way delayed your gas or went lair first, so if your hidden lings are dead, you should be able to run past his hellions to check). If he's delayed his CC, he's doing an early attack; either with tech (marine drop, blue flame, banshees, etc), or infrastructure (a fuckton of units). Moar defense; it's ok to sac some econ of your own if he is also saccing econ by delaying his CC.

Keep doing testing to see when he gets banshees when he rushes to them, and see when he gets cloak. Ask yourself if your regular build gives you lair by the time his cloak finishes. No? You need spores. Yes? queens/overseer. Keep scouting! It's OK to sac an overlord if you know he's going for an early attack (especially with tech). If his CC is delayed, sac that ovie!

The important part of the defense here is to know the timings of the typical build (CC into marine+support, weather that be blue flame, medivacs or more typically tanks) and know what that "imaginary player" has. Can he be going for a build like this and have a lot of marines? No, he can't, so if he has very little marine support, think to yourself, "woah, he's investing a LOT in tech, what are his options?"

-Marauders+Hellions
-Mech (blue flame, thor and tanks)
-Banshees

I'm not going to tell you precisely what to do versus this all in either, because that's not going to help you become a better player. Figure out these timing for when different builds attack. I can say for this particular case the "ideal" unit composition to fight his army is bane/roach/queen, however you can't rush right to that every time you see a delayed CC, can you? The most important thing to know is your own build first. Are you going for mutalisks? What time do you start getting them? Are you going for infestors? When do you get those? After you figure out your OWN timings, you can then look at his build and use those timings of the "imaginary player" to figure out if your normal build works versus what he's doing. Is his cloak going to hit before you have your mutas/infestors? No? Ezpz, his cloak is useless. Yes? What about your lair? Yes? You need spores. No? Queens will do fine holding off the banshees. If he's not building a lot of marines, are you going roaches? If you are, what if he is going for a marauder hellion all-in? Are you going for bane/ling? How can you deal with this hellion/thor thing?

For me, I can say that I go very standard ling/bane/muta off 3 hatch. In a situation like he presents, I might throw down a roach warren but never build any roaches at all becuase he could be doing A, B or C and I need roaches to hold off C but roaches are a liability versus A&B. I'll figure out the timings and if it looks like he's doing C, I'll throw in a few roaches. Remember you can build the building and never make the unit, and all you lost was the 150 minerals. In a case like this, may thought process looks like this (assuming I didn't know timings already). I'd build some more queens because I know he could be building a banshee and if I know cloak is a possibility before lair(test in single player), I'd get spores, if not I'd get an overseer. I'd stick to bane ling and throw down a roach warren when I know he's not going for a marauder/hellion all in. If I still scout a lack of marines, I'd pepper in some roaches while keeping my scouting up and when I see that train of SCV's coming with a thor across the map I'm pumping roaches and banes, because I know all I have to do is hold this all in and I've won the game.