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[Q] ForGG's opening vs Z - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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loginn
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France815 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-10 11:29:51
December 10 2011 11:26 GMT
#81
On December 10 2011 06:24 Flonomenalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2011 05:32 loginn wrote:
I saw Stephano (DreAm is his account name) hold it with lings queens and spore too and crush the thor push with Ultra Infestor (with NP) and Zerglings on his stream today. It should be online tomorow and i'll try to link the VOD.

Ultra Infestor...?

I'm pretty sure the 4 thor all in comes WAY before Ultras, lol....


http://fr.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/302131057

Watch the first game (starts around 3 min 30)

Stephano defends with lings spore queens vs hellion banshee. Then at around 17 min in the video he defends the Thor push from fOrGG

EDIT : There's a lot more than 4 thors though
Stephano, Taking skill to the bank since IPL3. Also Lucifron and FBH
Vod.kaholic
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1052 Posts
December 10 2011 11:40 GMT
#82
From a few of the TvZ games where he used this build, it seemed that when zergs went fast muta against this style, they tended to lose (as in, when muta was the go-to response to seeing the banshees) because the first push with ~2 thors tends to hit when the muta numbers are low, and thors are ready to pop back home. The guy who was playing under the name CJentusHydra crushed it in games 2 and 3 against him on the ladder by holding the push with roaches and speedlings, and transitioning to mutas after.
._. \: |: /: .-. :\ :| :/ ._. They see me rolling...
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
December 10 2011 17:07 GMT
#83
I've been working something like that build you saw but instead of reactor hellions i just do a naked rax/fac and tech lab starport and when i have enough units i'll go for the push. Worked against 4 zerg players so far. I can post a replay(if i remember the site)
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-10 17:17:30
December 10 2011 17:15 GMT
#84
I saw this build in the GSL (at least this opening, I don't remember if the T went for thors later), but I don't remember which match it was. It seems the key is to scout the banshee when she leaves the base, which gives you enough time to build a pair of spores (perhaps you'll have 5-10 seconds delay)
Reactored hellions to banshees also has a low marine count, which means that overlord scouting is a reasonable option.
JoeAWESOME
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1080 Posts
December 10 2011 17:27 GMT
#85
I saw Stephano defend it when he played ForGG on the ladder. It's a strong build that requires a lot of multitasking from the terran and even greater multitasking from the Z. The way to defend it is with queens and blocking and drone running + some spines here and there.
Simply Awesome! - Liquid'Ret - NSHoSeo_Seal - coLMVP_DRG - EG_Idra - Fnatic.NightEnd
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
December 11 2011 05:15 GMT
#86
This build is incredibly frustrating to play against. You can't push across the map with roaches or the banshees pick them apart, and the hellions roast any lings. They also deny map control and your third base, so it really feels like you're forced into 2 base muta while they get thors out and your mutas can't do jack.
Not to say I can't beat the style, I haven't lost to it yet, but still, so annoying :|
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 11 2011 05:24 GMT
#87
On December 11 2011 14:15 Tachion wrote:
This build is incredibly frustrating to play against. You can't push across the map with roaches or the banshees pick them apart|

Why would you push across the map when you have a tier2 building which allows you to make them instantly travel to your target?
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
December 11 2011 05:59 GMT
#88
This build is still sick-- it worked a couple of times against iS.CrazymovinG-- who has qualified for Code A multiple times and is in KR GM. He holds it off with either spores or a fast lair, depending on what his midgame plan is (muta/ling or roach all in usually)
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
ImFromPortugal
Profile Joined April 2010
Portugal1368 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-11 06:46:17
December 11 2011 06:25 GMT
#89
Nice build, we terrans used to do this many times on the ladder : ) (beta times)

There is also a guy on NA that was 1800 masters some seasons ago...he even told viewers he was silver level but thanks to his build he was able to win against NA GM's, i remember watching him win against destiny to times in a row; it was an all in he did against every race, he didnt even scouted until it was time to attack move... blue flame + marine + marauder (stim) + banshee.
Yes im
whoopingchow
Profile Joined June 2011
United States293 Posts
December 11 2011 06:29 GMT
#90
What about Stephano's mass Queens and lings build? Use the queens to buy enough time for spores and spines to get up, and sim city your ramp so hellions have to file in slowly?
anApple
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore275 Posts
December 12 2011 02:27 GMT
#91
This build seems to be a coin flip as if the Zerg knows how to counter it, it's impossible for the Terran to win since they're so significantly behind and Thors don't exactly do that well against too many army compositions that Zerg has.

On a side note, I saw SlayersDragon beat SlayersMin yesterday using the same build which further proves it's effectiveness at all levels, given good mechanics and etc.
huehuehue
Thrax
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1755 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 02:39:23
December 12 2011 02:38 GMT
#92
Going up to 4 queens on two bases can help against this build. It also allows you to push back hellions and take a third potentially without going roaches. Having the two extra queens also lets you expand creep very aggressively.
It's a relatively small investment. You of course need to be careful and watch for cloaked banshees.
thesums
Profile Joined December 2010
Taiwan257 Posts
December 12 2011 07:32 GMT
#93
Maybe turtle into quick lair off 2 base and get mutas. Catch the terran before many thors are produced. If terran do not do enough damage with hellions, I feel best to go mutas for zerg i did not see many pros do this, but i think should be best solution vs mech.

thesums
Profile Joined December 2010
Taiwan257 Posts
December 12 2011 07:34 GMT
#94
Well FIN is a great player since he has solid BW foundations...i think him and MVP will be dominating until other very good BW players come up. I have not been watching FIN a lot yet, but if you look at MVP closely you can see that is multi tasking is impeccable it seems like he is in 3 locations at a time, and his reaction time is inhuman. This i find many SC2 players lack, they seem to be only able to do with 1 location +home base, but not other locations simultaneously.
SnePe
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden14 Posts
December 13 2011 16:47 GMT
#95
The way he plays is extremely technical and micro intensive. He never lets up the aggression, it is basically an agressive 4 hellion opening, into 2 banshee with cloak. Non stop harrassment, adding CC, more hellions, armory, 2fact, keeping up pressure with hellions. Add thor/banshee/tank depending on what opponent has.
You need to have amazing multitasking to pull it off and never miss a beat. Your banshees has to be active without dying, the hellions needs to be aggressive without dying cost-inefficently.
Something like this is usually how he plays, the exact build numbers is ripped from one of his games on metalopolis. They might not be exactly the same for all games but the timings were pretty fOrGG-like on this specific game...
Anyways from watching a bunch of his TvZs this is about the general way he tends to play:


10 Supply depot (Wall)
12 Barracks (Wall)
13 Refinery
16 Marine
17 Supply (Wall)
17 Orbital Command
17 Marine
18 Factory
18 Scout
20 Refinery
20 Reactor
22 Starport (Switch factory to reactor and build techlab with Barracks close to the starport)
22 Supply depot
23 Hellion x2 (When these are done, take watch towers and make 2 more. Start harrass with 4 - VERY AGGRESSIVLY)
32 Switch Starport to techlab and start Cloak resarch
** Cut hellion after the 3rd and 4th Hellion and SCV prodction for a short time to afford supply, cloak and banshee
32 Supply depot
32 Banshee
** Resume SCV production
36 Command Center (OC when done)
36 Techlab on Barracks
38 Banshee
** fOrGG lost hellions, will not continue with supply numbers but ingame time instead
** After 2nd Banshee, start producing Hellions again, dont forget supply depots/scvs etc!
** 9:20 - Fly Orbital Command to natural (Should have 2 banshees and 8 hellions if your first four died during the harrass the 8 hellions should be able to clear out your natural of any lings trying to deny it)
** 9:40 - Build armory
** Lift Starport&Barracks, build 2 more factories on the now two free techlabs
** Keep repairing banshees if they get hurt, they should never die.
** Be agressive with your hellions and just keep producing them.
** 10:25 - One medivac for Hellion drops!
** 10:40 - Two refineries
** When factories are done, get Blue flame upgrade and produce Hellions out of all three!
-- It should be timed out that your 2 reactored hellions + your other two hellions from you techlabed factories and your medivac is done at approximatley the same time. Go hellion drop him!

** Get 2 Thors!
** Against mutaling (handful of mutas to harrass and a lot of lings), fOrGG seems to add a viking and more hellions before more thors.
** Against roaches, fOrGG sometimes adds a couple of tanks+siege mode+banshees. I've also seen him not do this and just getting more thors.
** Against heavy muta, more thors.
** Against heavy ling more hellions.
** Eventually he will always build more thors and push when he has 3-4 and then he keeps producing them and reinforces!
** He also tends to add more banshees if Z switches to roach!

The more you watch him play this, the more it seems to develop, it's pretty cool I think.
Spinoza
Profile Joined October 2010
667 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 18:51:15
December 13 2011 18:49 GMT
#96
Thanks for a nice summary with generic build order SnePe!
FanTaSy | Flash | Movie | Leta | Stork | Map:Destination[BW]
SoniC_eu
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark1008 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 19:06:39
December 13 2011 19:06 GMT
#97
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 14 2011 01:47 SnePe wrote:
The way he plays is extremely technical and micro intensive. He never lets up the aggression, it is basically an agressive 4 hellion opening, into 2 banshee with cloak. Non stop harrassment, adding CC, more hellions, armory, 2fact, keeping up pressure with hellions. Add thor/banshee/tank depending on what opponent has.
You need to have amazing multitasking to pull it off and never miss a beat. Your banshees has to be active without dying, the hellions needs to be aggressive without dying cost-inefficently.
Something like this is usually how he plays, the exact build numbers is ripped from one of his games on metalopolis. They might not be exactly the same for all games but the timings were pretty fOrGG-like on this specific game...
Anyways from watching a bunch of his TvZs this is about the general way he tends to play:


10 Supply depot (Wall)
12 Barracks (Wall)
13 Refinery
16 Marine
17 Supply (Wall)
17 Orbital Command
17 Marine
18 Factory
18 Scout
20 Refinery
20 Reactor
22 Starport (Switch factory to reactor and build techlab with Barracks close to the starport)
22 Supply depot
23 Hellion x2 (When these are done, take watch towers and make 2 more. Start harrass with 4 - VERY AGGRESSIVLY)
32 Switch Starport to techlab and start Cloak resarch
** Cut hellion after the 3rd and 4th Hellion and SCV prodction for a short time to afford supply, cloak and banshee
32 Supply depot
32 Banshee
** Resume SCV production
36 Command Center (OC when done)
36 Techlab on Barracks
38 Banshee
** fOrGG lost hellions, will not continue with supply numbers but ingame time instead
** After 2nd Banshee, start producing Hellions again, dont forget supply depots/scvs etc!
** 9:20 - Fly Orbital Command to natural (Should have 2 banshees and 8 hellions if your first four died during the harrass the 8 hellions should be able to clear out your natural of any lings trying to deny it)
** 9:40 - Build armory
** Lift Starport&Barracks, build 2 more factories on the now two free techlabs
** Keep repairing banshees if they get hurt, they should never die.
** Be agressive with your hellions and just keep producing them.
** 10:25 - One medivac for Hellion drops!
** 10:40 - Two refineries
** When factories are done, get Blue flame upgrade and produce Hellions out of all three!
-- It should be timed out that your 2 reactored hellions + your other two hellions from you techlabed factories and your medivac is done at approximatley the same time. Go hellion drop him!

** Get 2 Thors!
** Against mutaling (handful of mutas to harrass and a lot of lings), fOrGG seems to add a viking and more hellions before more thors.
** Against roaches, fOrGG sometimes adds a couple of tanks+siege mode+banshees. I've also seen him not do this and just getting more thors.
** Against heavy muta, more thors.
** Against heavy ling more hellions.
** Eventually he will always build more thors and push when he has 3-4 and then he keeps producing them and reinforces!
** He also tends to add more banshees if Z switches to roach!

The more you watch him play this, the more it seems to develop, it's pretty cool I think.


Yes I agree, it is fascinating watching him "experiment" and tweak with this stuff! So much more exciting than "reactor helion". Thanks for this, I am totally stealing it and crediting u . Much appreciated, thank you sir :D
In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure. http://da.twitch.tv/sonic_eu
Mantraz
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway119 Posts
December 13 2011 19:18 GMT
#98
On December 09 2011 15:04 lambac0re wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 15:01 aviator116 wrote:
On December 09 2011 14:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE that you need the same level of execution to defend that? Why do people always ask "hey, what build order do I have to do and how many workers should I make and how many units should I make to defend against this?" when what forgg does is a very technical rush that is heavily based on micro.

also this
without micro, this build is dead.


I hear you. But the question is still valid I believe. Because while I certainly lack the execution to defend such a push from ForGG, I think I would have a reasonable chance against another ladder nub my level attempting the same build if I had a solid counter ready based from what I can scout.

Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc.

Idra held this when i watched forgg's stream, lost a few queens to the banshees/hellions (no major number of drones, less than 10) then held the thor push very comfortably with roaches.
Incandenza
Profile Joined August 2011
United States56 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 21:45:01
December 13 2011 21:43 GMT
#99
On December 12 2011 11:38 Thrax wrote:
Going up to 4 queens on two bases can help against this build. It also allows you to push back hellions and take a third potentially without going roaches. Having the two extra queens also lets you expand creep very aggressively.
It's a relatively small investment. You of course need to be careful and watch for cloaked banshees.


I heard Idra talking about this in his practice sessions. On maps with narrow chokes, he concedes the fact that hellions will contain him and instead powers up on two base, going only minerals till about 40ish supply. Four queens, one spine for D, a few lings for early scout, and the rest on drones.

ForGG really seems to bring a new level of execution to Terran. His hyper aggressive style is reminiscent of the drop play from MMA before that became the operating standard. As others have said though, his build is much more difficult than an A-move win. His micro is impeccable, and he never lets his macro slip. He's truly a terrific player.

To the OP, for clarification (if it hasn't been mentioned yet), ForGG is now known as ogsFin, and for more of his games check out GSL code A. He walked through everyone he played pretty soundly. Super solid mechanics. Super exciting for the scene.
sc2observer.net
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 01:54:54
December 14 2011 01:53 GMT
#100
I reccomend Spanishiwa's No Gas FE (AKA Ice Fisher): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017

It lets you get tons of Economy, and you can 9 drone scout to see if he gets gas. Plus, it works on all the maps, plus no more close positions on metal or shattered. So, you can afford:

- Spines and spores

- Lots of roaches to defend his push

- Enough economy to crush him afterwards

- 4+ queens to defend his harassment

Hope this helps
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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