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France815 Posts
On December 10 2011 06:24 Flonomenalz wrote: Ultra Infestor...? I'm pretty sure the 4 thor all in comes WAY before Ultras, lol.... http://fr.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/302131057 Watch the first game (starts around 3 min 30) Stephano defends with lings spore queens vs hellion banshee. Then at around 17 min in the video he defends the Thor push from fOrGG EDIT : There's a lot more than 4 thors though | ||
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Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Reactored hellions to banshees also has a low marine count, which means that overlord scouting is a reasonable option. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
Not to say I can't beat the style, I haven't lost to it yet, but still, so annoying :| | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 11 2011 14:15 Tachion wrote: This build is incredibly frustrating to play against. You can't push across the map with roaches or the banshees pick them apart| Why would you push across the map when you have a tier2 building which allows you to make them instantly travel to your target? | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
There is also a guy on NA that was 1800 masters some seasons ago...he even told viewers he was silver level but thanks to his build he was able to win against NA GM's, i remember watching him win against destiny to times in a row; it was an all in he did against every race, he didnt even scouted until it was time to attack move... blue flame + marine + marauder (stim) + banshee. | ||
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whoopingchow
United States293 Posts
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
On a side note, I saw SlayersDragon beat SlayersMin yesterday using the same build which further proves it's effectiveness at all levels, given good mechanics and etc.  | ||
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Thrax
Canada1755 Posts
It's a relatively small investment. You of course need to be careful and watch for cloaked banshees. | ||
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
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thesums
Taiwan257 Posts
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SnePe
Sweden14 Posts
You need to have amazing multitasking to pull it off and never miss a beat. Your banshees has to be active without dying, the hellions needs to be aggressive without dying cost-inefficently. Something like this is usually how he plays, the exact build numbers is ripped from one of his games on metalopolis. They might not be exactly the same for all games but the timings were pretty fOrGG-like on this specific game... Anyways from watching a bunch of his TvZs this is about the general way he tends to play: 10 Supply depot (Wall) 12 Barracks (Wall) 13 Refinery 16 Marine 17 Supply (Wall) 17 Orbital Command 17 Marine 18 Factory 18 Scout 20 Refinery 20 Reactor 22 Starport (Switch factory to reactor and build techlab with Barracks close to the starport) 22 Supply depot 23 Hellion x2 (When these are done, take watch towers and make 2 more. Start harrass with 4 - VERY AGGRESSIVLY) 32 Switch Starport to techlab and start Cloak resarch ** Cut hellion after the 3rd and 4th Hellion and SCV prodction for a short time to afford supply, cloak and banshee 32 Supply depot 32 Banshee ** Resume SCV production 36 Command Center (OC when done) 36 Techlab on Barracks 38 Banshee ** fOrGG lost hellions, will not continue with supply numbers but ingame time instead ** After 2nd Banshee, start producing Hellions again, dont forget supply depots/scvs etc! ** 9:20 - Fly Orbital Command to natural (Should have 2 banshees and 8 hellions if your first four died during the harrass the 8 hellions should be able to clear out your natural of any lings trying to deny it) ** 9:40 - Build armory ** Lift Starport&Barracks, build 2 more factories on the now two free techlabs ** Keep repairing banshees if they get hurt, they should never die. ** Be agressive with your hellions and just keep producing them. ** 10:25 - One medivac for Hellion drops! ** 10:40 - Two refineries ** When factories are done, get Blue flame upgrade and produce Hellions out of all three! -- It should be timed out that your 2 reactored hellions + your other two hellions from you techlabed factories and your medivac is done at approximatley the same time. Go hellion drop him! ** Get 2 Thors! ** Against mutaling (handful of mutas to harrass and a lot of lings), fOrGG seems to add a viking and more hellions before more thors. ** Against roaches, fOrGG sometimes adds a couple of tanks+siege mode+banshees. I've also seen him not do this and just getting more thors. ** Against heavy muta, more thors. ** Against heavy ling more hellions. ** Eventually he will always build more thors and push when he has 3-4 and then he keeps producing them and reinforces! ** He also tends to add more banshees if Z switches to roach! The more you watch him play this, the more it seems to develop, it's pretty cool I think. | ||
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Spinoza
667 Posts
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On December 14 2011 01:47 SnePe wrote: The way he plays is extremely technical and micro intensive. He never lets up the aggression, it is basically an agressive 4 hellion opening, into 2 banshee with cloak. Non stop harrassment, adding CC, more hellions, armory, 2fact, keeping up pressure with hellions. Add thor/banshee/tank depending on what opponent has. You need to have amazing multitasking to pull it off and never miss a beat. Your banshees has to be active without dying, the hellions needs to be aggressive without dying cost-inefficently. Something like this is usually how he plays, the exact build numbers is ripped from one of his games on metalopolis. They might not be exactly the same for all games but the timings were pretty fOrGG-like on this specific game... Anyways from watching a bunch of his TvZs this is about the general way he tends to play: 10 Supply depot (Wall) 12 Barracks (Wall) 13 Refinery 16 Marine 17 Supply (Wall) 17 Orbital Command 17 Marine 18 Factory 18 Scout 20 Refinery 20 Reactor 22 Starport (Switch factory to reactor and build techlab with Barracks close to the starport) 22 Supply depot 23 Hellion x2 (When these are done, take watch towers and make 2 more. Start harrass with 4 - VERY AGGRESSIVLY) 32 Switch Starport to techlab and start Cloak resarch ** Cut hellion after the 3rd and 4th Hellion and SCV prodction for a short time to afford supply, cloak and banshee 32 Supply depot 32 Banshee ** Resume SCV production 36 Command Center (OC when done) 36 Techlab on Barracks 38 Banshee ** fOrGG lost hellions, will not continue with supply numbers but ingame time instead ** After 2nd Banshee, start producing Hellions again, dont forget supply depots/scvs etc! ** 9:20 - Fly Orbital Command to natural (Should have 2 banshees and 8 hellions if your first four died during the harrass the 8 hellions should be able to clear out your natural of any lings trying to deny it) ** 9:40 - Build armory ** Lift Starport&Barracks, build 2 more factories on the now two free techlabs ** Keep repairing banshees if they get hurt, they should never die. ** Be agressive with your hellions and just keep producing them. ** 10:25 - One medivac for Hellion drops! ** 10:40 - Two refineries ** When factories are done, get Blue flame upgrade and produce Hellions out of all three! -- It should be timed out that your 2 reactored hellions + your other two hellions from you techlabed factories and your medivac is done at approximatley the same time. Go hellion drop him! ** Get 2 Thors! ** Against mutaling (handful of mutas to harrass and a lot of lings), fOrGG seems to add a viking and more hellions before more thors. ** Against roaches, fOrGG sometimes adds a couple of tanks+siege mode+banshees. I've also seen him not do this and just getting more thors. ** Against heavy muta, more thors. ** Against heavy ling more hellions. ** Eventually he will always build more thors and push when he has 3-4 and then he keeps producing them and reinforces! ** He also tends to add more banshees if Z switches to roach! The more you watch him play this, the more it seems to develop, it's pretty cool I think. Yes I agree, it is fascinating watching him "experiment" and tweak with this stuff! So much more exciting than "reactor helion". Thanks for this, I am totally stealing it and crediting u . Much appreciated, thank you sir :D | ||
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Mantraz
Norway119 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:04 lambac0re wrote: I hear you. But the question is still valid I believe. Because while I certainly lack the execution to defend such a push from ForGG, I think I would have a reasonable chance against another ladder nub my level attempting the same build if I had a solid counter ready based from what I can scout. Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc. Idra held this when i watched forgg's stream, lost a few queens to the banshees/hellions (no major number of drones, less than 10) then held the thor push very comfortably with roaches. | ||
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Incandenza
United States56 Posts
On December 12 2011 11:38 Thrax wrote: Going up to 4 queens on two bases can help against this build. It also allows you to push back hellions and take a third potentially without going roaches. Having the two extra queens also lets you expand creep very aggressively. It's a relatively small investment. You of course need to be careful and watch for cloaked banshees. I heard Idra talking about this in his practice sessions. On maps with narrow chokes, he concedes the fact that hellions will contain him and instead powers up on two base, going only minerals till about 40ish supply. Four queens, one spine for D, a few lings for early scout, and the rest on drones. ForGG really seems to bring a new level of execution to Terran. His hyper aggressive style is reminiscent of the drop play from MMA before that became the operating standard. As others have said though, his build is much more difficult than an A-move win. His micro is impeccable, and he never lets his macro slip. He's truly a terrific player. To the OP, for clarification (if it hasn't been mentioned yet), ForGG is now known as ogsFin, and for more of his games check out GSL code A. He walked through everyone he played pretty soundly. Super solid mechanics. Super exciting for the scene. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
It lets you get tons of Economy, and you can 9 drone scout to see if he gets gas. Plus, it works on all the maps, plus no more close positions on metal or shattered. So, you can afford:- Spines and spores - Lots of roaches to defend his push - Enough economy to crush him afterwards - 4+ queens to defend his harassment Hope this helps | ||
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