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IMStyle
Canada52 Posts
Rax 2 marines, factory Reactor on rax starport Switch fact to reactor first 4 hellions go Research cloak get two banshees and expand. While attacking he keeps making hellions, depending on zerg response he goes for more banshees or medivacs to drop hellions. | ||
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lambac0re
United States77 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:09 TheDwf wrote: IdrA left every game against fOrGG without even trying... (Except for the Antiga game, maybe, but I did not see it entirely.) The game your referencing to, Idra shut down the hellion/cloak banshee play (with 5? muta I think) but then left after he saw the 4 thor + blue flame + scv all in. Anyways I guess there isn't too much left to analyze here then. Basically the consensus appears to be scout gas, and prepare evo chamber spores/extra queens ahead of time with sim city to block as many hellions as possible. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
the opening's idea is to get reactor hellion expand (CC first if u want) and get banshees + hellions to contain and harass the zerg because of hellion and banshee being able to defend against all early zerg busts, like zerglings and banelings and roaches, and because mutas don't come until like at least 10:30 usually, you will have your third set up at 9:10-9:30 and have lots of time to get thors/turrets up. Because of this, the opening allows terran to take a very fast third base (or in this case, get a lot of factory production and tech going) safely while the zerg has to stay on 2 base until he can connect the creep to his third so he can defend his bases with queens + spines. from what i saw, forgg built 2 more factories before the CC instead of the other way like gumiho does, and he likes to get cloak banshees and i haven't seen him get ravens after the first 1-2 banshees like gumiho sometimes does the thor hellion push is just one of the many options that you can follow up the opening with As to how to deal with this kind of opening, you stay on 2 base and drone up a lot and get lots of queens and make sure u can wall off the nat from hellions (buildings and/or queens). Roaches are not safe because you don't know how many banshees he's getting or the exact build he's doing; on big maps like tal'darim especially, the 1-2 banshees will stop any kind of roach bust. If your roach bust happens to survive and deal a lot of damage to terran, it means that your econ (zerg) will be very very behind since you pumped so many roaches. Reason why I say drone up a lot is so that you can saturate your third ASAP once you finally get it, or else if he takes a fast third you will be very behind economically. Now I'm not too familiar with forgg's build but i saw it on his stream. I would say that after the queens, you simply add roaches. Roaches beat thors and hellions efficiently as long as it's not a 200/200 situation, and you should have queens to defend against banshees. Forgg's thor hellion push followup will punish zergs who go muta (and possibly infestor, im not sure about the timing of fungal though) as a response to the hellion/banshee contain/harass. (Even if terran takes a quick third instead, he will have thors + turrets up in time to deal with mutas since you build your third at 7:30). On December 09 2011 15:09 TheDwf wrote: IdrA left every game against fOrGG without even trying... (Except for the Antiga game, maybe, but I did not see it entirely.) Ugh I hate how people keep misusing the terms "metagame" "gimmicky" "mechanics" and others. Idra has strong macro. Any pro should have good mechanics. Heck any serious Masters player should know all the useful mechanics that pertain to his race and its matchups. Mechanics are not what you do but how you do them. For example, to have good macro is to inject your hatcheries all the time. To have the mechanics to do that, you know how to use a method that allows you to do that, for example backspace method. Knowing that you can shift-queue commands for units is also mechanics, so on. It would be quite embarrassing for a progamer to not know how to, for example, stutter step, or rally your workers on your mineral lines, or to a-click the ground to home in on units instead of right clicking an enemy's army. Definition: + Show Spoiler + 1.( used with a singular verb ) the branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics. 2.( used with a singular verb ) the theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc. 3.( usually used with a plural verb ) the technical aspect or working part; mechanism; structure. 4.( usually used with a plural verb ) routine or basic methods, procedures, techniques, or details: the mechanics of running an office; the mechanics of baseball. If you're a basketball player, if you have good mechanics it means that you have good form, posture, footwork, etc. It does not refer to how good you are at scoring points or stealing balls or passing, etc. | ||
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: + Show Spoiler + this kind of opening has used a lot by gumiho recently, who first showed it at WCG and beat Nestea on taldarim the opening's idea is to get reactor hellion expand (CC first if u want) and get banshees + hellions to contain and harass the zerg because of hellion and banshee being able to defend against all early zerg busts, like zerglings and banelings and roaches, and because mutas don't come until like at least 10:30 usually, you will have your third set up at 9:10-9:30 and have lots of time to get thors/turrets up. Because of this, the opening allows terran to take a very fast third base (or in this case, get a lot of factory production and tech going) safely while the zerg has to stay on 2 base until he can connect the creep to his third so he can defend his bases with queens + spines. from what i saw, forgg built 2 more factories before the CC instead of the other way like gumiho does, and he likes to get cloak banshees and i haven't seen him get ravens after the first 1-2 banshees like gumiho sometimes does the thor hellion push is just one of the many options that you can follow up the opening with As to how to deal with this kind of opening, you stay on 2 base and drone up a lot and get lots of queens and make sure u can wall off the nat from hellions (buildings and/or queens). Roaches are not safe because you don't know how many banshees he's getting or the exact build he's doing; on big maps like tal'darim especially, the 1-2 banshees will stop any kind of roach bust. If your roach bust happens to survive and deal a lot of damage to terran, it means that your econ (zerg) will be very very behind since you pumped so many roaches. Reason why I say drone up a lot is so that you can saturate your third ASAP once you finally get it, or else if he takes a fast third you will be very behind economically. Now I'm not too familiar with forgg's build but i saw it on his stream. I would say that after the queens, you simply add roaches. Roaches beat thors and hellions efficiently as long as it's not a 200/200 situation, and you should have queens to defend against banshees. Forgg's thor hellion push followup will punish zergs who go muta (and possibly infestor, im not sure about the timing of fungal though) as a response to the hellion/banshee contain/harass. (Even if terran takes a quick third instead, he will have thors + turrets up in time to deal with mutas since you build your third at 7:30). On December 09 2011 15:09 TheDwf wrote: IdrA left every game against fOrGG without even trying... (Except for the Antiga game, maybe, but I did not see it entirely.) Ugh I hate how people keep misusing the terms "metagame" "gimmicky" "mechanics" and others. Idra has strong macro. Any pro should have good mechanics. Heck any serious Masters player should know all the useful mechanics that pertain to his race and its matchups. Mechanics are not what you do but how you do them. For example, to have good macro is to inject your hatcheries all the time. To have the mechanics to do that, you know how to use a method that allows you to do that, for example backspace method. Knowing that you can shift-queue commands for units is also mechanics, so on. It would be quite embarrassing for a progamer to not know how to, for example, stutter step, or rally your workers on your mineral lines, or to a-click the ground to home in on units instead of right clicking an enemy's army. Definition: + Show Spoiler + 1.( used with a singular verb ) the branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics. 2.( used with a singular verb ) the theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc. 3.( usually used with a plural verb ) the technical aspect or working part; mechanism; structure. 4.( usually used with a plural verb ) routine or basic methods, procedures, techniques, or details: the mechanics of running an office; the mechanics of baseball. If you're a basketball player, if you have good mechanics it means that you have good form, posture, footwork, etc. It does not refer to how good you are at scoring points or stealing balls or passing, etc. When we say mechanics we mean the practice of making what you want to happen in the game, happen. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
I watched forGG stream and i highly recommended you practice build many times first.Cuz, from what i see this build is very tight and your execution with the 4 hellion harass and 2 banshees with cloak must be VERY GOOD.You must not get supply-blocked at anytime and your multi-tasking must be very very very good to execute this build. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this kind of opening has used a lot by gumiho recently, who first showed it at WCG and beat Nestea on taldarim the opening's idea is to get reactor hellion expand (CC first if u want) and get banshees + hellions to contain and harass the zerg because of hellion and banshee being able to defend against all early zerg busts, like zerglings and banelings and roaches, and because mutas don't come until like at least 10:30 usually, you will have your third set up at 9:10-9:30 and have lots of time to get thors/turrets up. Because of this, the opening allows terran to take a very fast third base (or in this case, get a lot of factory production and tech going) safely while the zerg has to stay on 2 base until he can connect the creep to his third so he can defend his bases with queens + spines. from what i saw, forgg built 2 more factories before the CC instead of the other way like gumiho does, and he likes to get cloak banshees and i haven't seen him get ravens after the first 1-2 banshees like gumiho sometimes does the thor hellion push is just one of the many options that you can follow up the opening with As to how to deal with this kind of opening, you stay on 2 base and drone up a lot and get lots of queens and make sure u can wall off the nat from hellions (buildings and/or queens). Roaches are not safe because you don't know how many banshees he's getting or the exact build he's doing; on big maps like tal'darim especially, the 1-2 banshees will stop any kind of roach bust. If your roach bust happens to survive and deal a lot of damage to terran, it means that your econ (zerg) will be very very behind since you pumped so many roaches. Reason why I say drone up a lot is so that you can saturate your third ASAP once you finally get it, or else if he takes a fast third you will be very behind economically. Now I'm not too familiar with forgg's build but i saw it on his stream. I would say that after the queens, you simply add roaches. Roaches beat thors and hellions efficiently as long as it's not a 200/200 situation, and you should have queens to defend against banshees. Forgg's thor hellion push followup will punish zergs who go muta (and possibly infestor, im not sure about the timing of fungal though) as a response to the hellion/banshee contain/harass. (Even if terran takes a quick third instead, he will have thors + turrets up in time to deal with mutas since you build your third at 7:30). Ugh I hate how people keep misusing the terms "metagame" "gimmicky" "mechanics" and others. Idra has strong macro. Any pro should have good mechanics. Heck any serious Masters player should know all the useful mechanics that pertain to his race and its matchups. Mechanics are not what you do but how you do them. For example, to have good macro is to inject your hatcheries all the time. To have the mechanics to do that, you know how to use a method that allows you to do that, for example backspace method. Knowing that you can shift-queue commands for units is also mechanics, so on. It would be quite embarrassing for a progamer to not know how to, for example, stutter step, or rally your workers on your mineral lines, or to a-click the ground to home in on units instead of right clicking an enemy's army. Definition: + Show Spoiler + 1.( used with a singular verb ) the branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics. 2.( used with a singular verb ) the theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc. 3.( usually used with a plural verb ) the technical aspect or working part; mechanism; structure. 4.( usually used with a plural verb ) routine or basic methods, procedures, techniques, or details: the mechanics of running an office; the mechanics of baseball. If you're a basketball player, if you have good mechanics it means that you have good form, posture, footwork, etc. It does not refer to how good you are at scoring points or stealing balls or passing, etc. Not necessary,Cezanne hold off his 2 cloak banshee and hellions harass with lings queens and spores and spine .After that forGG went for the banshee+hellions+thor with scv pulls against cezanne.cezanne crushes the push with lings and mutas. DreamZenith also barely hold off the 2 cloak banshee and hellions harass with only lings and he had a third base.This time forGG went for a push with tanks+hellions+banshees+thors with scv pull again.DreamZenith barely hold it off with roaches + infestor and won the game. The key to defeat forGG build is to not let the hellions and banshee do so much dmg.Getting an evo and lair is key to holding off the banshees harass and thors push later on.More queen is also necessary early on to deal with hellions and banshee along with couple of spore. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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SyrZulu
80 Posts
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Suichoy
Canada397 Posts
MMA? Great Reactor Hellion. ForGG? Both at the same time. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
The problem with this build, you get your expo so late ( around 7:30 ) that you could probably kill 20 drones and still be behind in workers. I saw Happy do it against en european zerg, he killed 24 drones in total, both the hellion harass and the banshee killed a tons of stuff, but after that ? You have almost no marines, you don't have tanks, no stim, no shield. Zerg can just take a third and drone non stop for 3min because you can't apply any pressure. | ||
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t.Swift
United States47 Posts
It is undoubtedly better with pro BW micro but if they get spores up and don't lose that many drones to hellions, you are ridiculously behind with your expo; it's almost all-in. Oh, and the build is just a reactor hellion opening but you get a 2nd gas (and a depot) after the factory, get a starport after factory finishes, and make a tech lab on the rax after swapping it for reactored hellions (which then gets swapped with factory -> get cloak, make banshee, etc.). | ||
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HardMacro
Canada361 Posts
On December 09 2011 17:21 Noocta wrote: Actually, reactor hellions into cloack banshee was very popular during beta, when people were one basing way more than today. The problem with this build, you get your expo so late ( around 7:30 ) that you could probably kill 20 drones and still be behind in workers. I saw Happy do it against en european zerg, he killed 24 drones in total, both the hellion harass and the banshee killed a tons of stuff, but after that ? You have almost no marines, you don't have tanks, no stim, no shield. Zerg can just take a third and drone non stop for 3min because you can't apply any pressure. Pretty sure that's why Idra rage quit because "you can't apply any pressure"? | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Reasonable
Ukraine1432 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:59 lambac0re wrote: Searched a bit around the forum and didn't find anything about this build. Was watching ForGG's stream earlier and noticed that he was practicing this build apparently as he opened the same way every game vs Z unless he was 2 rax/bunkering. Build goes something along the lines of hellion expand/harass standard etc etc into 2+ cloak banshee. If that doesn't do the trick, follow up with blue flame hellions + 4 thors + scv pull all in. Seen zerg after zerg fall to this strategy, the only time I've seen it fail so far was when oGsCezanne (a teammate) blind countered with spore crawlers and mass queens when all he had scouted were hellions. *Edit That was dumb of me, forgot to post my question. The question is how do you stop this as zerg (leaving out blind countering and luck)? Being a relatively new starcraft player myself, this build looked scary good. Drones and lings die to the hellions, queens to the cloak banshees, and muta's if they even get out in time to the thors. If you see a delayed expansion from terran, build one spore crawler. 4 Thors should never come out before mutalisks. Thors won't move out for a while because your mutas will shred terran's base apart. Always connect bases with creep. Thats it. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On December 09 2011 17:37 HardMacro wrote: Pretty sure that's why Idra rage quit because "you can't apply any pressure"? The build is either win right away with the harass or be behind if zerg didn't take ENORMOUS amount of damage. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
It did seem like a lot of his Zerg opponents were being affected by a stupid ray though. I mean how often does idra lose to just the first 4 hellions? I played a few games with this style. It's hard to pull off quite like he does it with the control. It's all about good control. If the Zerg tries to open aggressive though it's really fucking amazing. Zerg has to play super passive and turtley against it and fewer Zergs open like that compared to when this was popular like 6 months ago or whenever. But my conclusion is that you're essentially mising a victory. It's also possible ForGG wasn't trying a completely serious TvZ style and just wanted to show off his baller control to thousands of viewers. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On December 09 2011 18:01 Reasonable wrote: If you see a delayed expansion from terran, build one spore crawler. 4 Thors should never come out before mutalisks. Thors won't move out for a while because your mutas will shred terran's base apart. Always connect bases with creep. Thats it. No; sorry, but I don't agree at all. The kind of muta numbers we're talking about won't 'shred' anything. Don't forget we're talking about Thor/BFH/SCV-pull - there's no economy to harrass; it'd be a base race and there's no way a handful of mutas are going to win that versus thors, especially when there are SCVs with the thors that could build a barracks right next to them if it looked like a close thing. I'm not saying you can't go muta and win, I just disagree that the threat of mutalisks in his base is in any way meaningful or will slow him down even slightly. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:19 lambac0re wrote: The game your referencing to, Idra shut down the hellion/cloak banshee play (with 5? muta I think) but then left after he saw the 4 thor + blue flame + scv all in. Anyways I guess there isn't too much left to analyze here then. Basically the consensus appears to be scout gas, and prepare evo chamber spores/extra queens ahead of time with sim city to block as many hellions as possible. What games are you guys referring to? Can I watch them anywhere? | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
(it was pretty freaking sick though when he pulled it off, and he did pull it off a lot more than he didn't) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
THe answer to me seems just 2 base tech to muta, with either spores or overseers for detection (depending how fast you tech) and then with the muta the harass should be stopped and you should get an idea what t is doing. If you see continued hellion and thor production you should immediately get roaches then and I think you can hold it off just fine. | ||
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