EPT[Q] ForGG's opening vs Z - Page 3
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
The first game was very clever and needs some practice to get the timings down. The second one was just lucky to be honest, has he gone roach then it would have been a 2 fac siege tank build, but he hadn't taken his natural gases fast enough for that. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:59 lambac0re wrote: Searched a bit around the forum and didn't find anything about this build. Was watching ForGG's stream earlier and noticed that he was practicing this build apparently as he opened the same way every game vs Z unless he was 2 rax/bunkering. Build goes something along the lines of hellion expand/harass standard etc etc into 2+ cloak banshee. If that doesn't do the trick, follow up with blue flame hellions + 4 thors + scv pull all in. Seen zerg after zerg fall to this strategy, the only time I've seen it fail so far was when oGsCezanne (a teammate) blind countered with spore crawlers and mass queens when all he had scouted were hellions. *Edit That was dumb of me, forgot to post my question. The question is how do you stop this as zerg (leaving out blind countering and luck)? Being a relatively new starcraft player myself, this build looked scary good. Drones and lings die to the hellions, queens to the cloak banshees, and muta's if they even get out in time to the thors. Funny things is, NamchiR has been doing something very similar to this from Day 1. He still does it today too. Basically it is bunker pressure, followed by Hellions, followed by 2 Port Cloaked Banshee, into a Thor/Marine/Banshee/Hellion all-in from 2 bases. He once claimed he could beat any Zerg in the world with it a bo9 series. From January: From August: http://sc2casts.com/cast5068-PsY-vs-NamhciR-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Own-Replay-Analysis From October: http://sc2casts.com/cast5842-SlayerS_Cella-vs-NamhciR-Best-of-3-IGN-Pro-League-Qualifier It is actually a lot more effective than the above VODs I linked. He beat Sheth two out of three games doing that strategy, even know Sheth tells him he knows what he is about to do (you can find those games here: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays?filter-hidden-top-player-name=namhcir&filter-map= ). If he suspects a blind counter (Mass queens and Spores early), he makes Medivacs with the 2 ports, and does a mass Marine Hellion drop in his opponents base. I never played (aside from a bunch of BGH vs the AI) or watched any BW games. That said, for all this talk about how good ForGG is, I am not impressed. You can see the same stuff TvZ on NamchiR's stream, and though ForGG has much better overall mechanics, refinement and timing with the build, it is still a very abusive build. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
More and more muta will come and only Thors can deal with magic boxed Mutalisks. | ||
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Flexx
United States87 Posts
However, being that it is an aggressive opening/build, a Zerg who properly scouts and defends will come out with a very large economic lead. The key issue being scouting.. I constantly watch top players FAIL to scout.. so hard. It's something we are all working on, all the time. forGG's timings are scary and brilliantly thought out, but like any timing, there are counters and defenses that work with practice and proper application. I'm personally a huge fan of Terran and Protoss doing these aggressive strategies to force Z to make units/defense and limit their drone count. Smart, dangerous play from forGG.. mad props. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
That loss vs ogs Zerg was the first I'd ever seen Forgg lose in over 20 games including gsl | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 10 2011 01:33 BronzeKnee wrote: You can see the same stuff TvZ on NamchiR's stream, and though ForGG has much better overall mechanics, refinement and timing with the build, it is still a very abusive build. Care to elaborate about what is “a very abusive build”? | ||
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AceOfSpaces
Brazil37 Posts
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loginn
France815 Posts
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
The build also only uses 1 factor + reactor to pump hellion, while two additional Facts pump thors, so if during the harass, ForGG is losing helions, his eventual ball is very low on hellion count and has almost no answer for Ling based armies since the thors are expensive and it cuts heavily into his siege tank numbers. (later expand also cuts into the siege tank numbers, and overall meatiness of the force). I feel like any zerg composition that involves lings + Tier 2/3 unit such as Infestor or Ultra will kill it if the lings are retained and the harass is not too deadly to the zerg's economy. He really doesn't push off two base every time though, this is not an all in, if he doesn't feel like he has done enough damage, he just switches to siege tank production and throws the extra minerals into an orbital... | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:59 lambac0re wrote: Searched a bit around the forum and didn't find anything about this build. Was watching ForGG's stream earlier and noticed that he was practicing this build apparently as he opened the same way every game vs Z unless he was 2 rax/bunkering. Build goes something along the lines of hellion expand/harass standard etc etc into 2+ cloak banshee. If that doesn't do the trick, follow up with blue flame hellions + 4 thors + scv pull all in. Seen zerg after zerg fall to this strategy, the only time I've seen it fail so far was when oGsCezanne (a teammate) blind countered with spore crawlers and mass queens when all he had scouted were hellions. *Edit That was dumb of me, forgot to post my question. The question is how do you stop this as zerg (leaving out blind countering and luck)? Being a relatively new starcraft player myself, this build looked scary good. Drones and lings die to the hellions, queens to the cloak banshees, and muta's if they even get out in time to the thors. Posting "something along the lines" of a build doesn't help at all. Need a replay or exactly what it was. Read forum guidelines before making any future posts. They're there to benefit everyone. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On December 09 2011 15:43 Warpath wrote: When we say mechanics we mean the practice of making what you want to happen in the game, happen. Yes, which is knowing things like shift queue and control keys to help you do what you want. Macro and micro help you win but they are not mechanics themselves but the result of your mechanics. On December 09 2011 15:55 FakeDeath wrote: Not necessary,Cezanne hold off his 2 cloak banshee and hellions harass with lings queens and spores and spine .After that forGG went for the banshee+hellions+thor with scv pulls against cezanne.cezanne crushes the push with lings and mutas. DreamZenith also barely hold off the 2 cloak banshee and hellions harass with only lings and he had a third base.This time forGG went for a push with tanks+hellions+banshees+thors with scv pull again.DreamZenith barely hold it off with roaches + infestor and won the game. The key to defeat forGG build is to not let the hellions and banshee do so much dmg.Getting an evo and lair is key to holding off the banshees harass and thors push later on.More queen is also necessary early on to deal with hellions and banshee along with couple of spore. Oh really, that's interesting ! | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Its also a good follow up to a failed quick push that forces roaches since you can hold the roach counter with only a single banshee (or tank) and enough buildings in the way. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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00Visor
4337 Posts
On December 10 2011 05:04 TheDwf wrote: Care to elaborate about what is “a very abusive build”? I believe Idra introduced the word "abusive" to Starcraft. He uses it as a deprecative word for clever strategies. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
On December 10 2011 06:03 00Visor wrote: I believe Idra introduced the word "abusive" to Starcraft. He uses it as a deprecative word for clever strategies. I'm not at all a fan of Idra, but sometimes the dude was 100% right - as in IEM finals vs. Morrow's use of the 5-rax reaper. Even as a Terran player at the time, watching Zergs try to hold that entirely broken strat was just painful, albeit, pretty funny. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On December 10 2011 05:32 loginn wrote: I saw Stephano (DreAm is his account name) hold it with lings queens and spore too and crush the thor push with Ultra Infestor (with NP) and Zerglings on his stream today. It should be online tomorow and i'll try to link the VOD. Ultra Infestor...? I'm pretty sure the 4 thor all in comes WAY before Ultras, lol.... | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On December 10 2011 06:10 willyallthewei wrote: I'm not at all a fan of Idra, but sometimes the dude was 100% right - as in IEM finals vs. Morrow's use of the 5-rax reaper. Even as a Terran player at the time, watching Zergs try to hold that entirely broken strat was just painful, albeit, pretty funny. today the old reapers wouldn't even do anything to zerg, and the only thing reapers really did was lock the zerg inside their base *looks for today* oh it seems hellion do exactly the same. Never understood why people thought that reapers were such a problem. The maps were heavily favoring reaper play and even then they were not really a problem (except if you went for speedlings like everyone at that time). It was more a omg zerg is so weak thing, with 1 thor beating endless amounts of mutas qq and other things like that. I miss the old reaper things. They went for reapers tryed to kill you, went for marauders to kill your roaches. went for thors to kill your mutas. and gged out after thors actually not even killed a muta in the engagement. And today reapers work better then ever against zerg, because they forgot the roach in tvz :p. Abusive build for me is something that takes not alot to do compared to your opponent, i actually never had to micro alot against reapers. magic boxing mutas for example is an abusive thing i would say since it involves no micro to magic box them. But i guess everyone sees that a bit different ^^. Anyway on topic. banshees in general aren't expected often anymore, just like the raven, that makes them quiet good currently. People stopped using them because they did their damage run, enemy put up defense and done. Unit was lost somewhere in battle, but since it delayed expansions and expansions are actually easier to set up early even if the opponent does play one base, these sort of things went into the basket. But people started to keep them alive or use them for their pushes, after the damage was done and delay them of course since the opponent themself delay their tech to get out more eco etc. So it allows you to do more mind games. Basically zerg atm prefer to stay 2 base then to build roaches and clear those pesky hellions, because they feel save to hold up anything the terran throws at them even without knowing what comes, because reactor hellion + expansion doesn't allow alot. Alot of terrans started abusing this, so we will soon the zerg try breaking the hellion contain, or tech faster to speed ovis, delaying ling speed, since they don't need it anyway. But until then i guess december winrates will look bad for zerg. | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
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