To any mod: I meant to add [D] to the title. Can someone do this for me. Thanks
Destiny has been using a two base infestor and zergling timing attack against Protoss on his stream and it has been very effective. The attack is frequently able to take out the nexus at the expansion. The power of the attack comes from using all available infestor energy on infested terrans which can be lobbed past structures and past or on top of sentries guarding at the front of the expo. The stream of lings can be used to 'tank' for the infested terrans as they try to snipe key structures.
The build works best against Blink and Stargate openings since an early observer allows the enemy to attack the burrowed infestors before they reach the opponent base. Once the infestors reach the base one or two cannons behind the wall don't seem to be enough to prevent this attack (the infestors are frequently able to lob the infested terrans much too quickly for the opponent to react in time)
The opening is still the 11 pool 18 hatch. Burrow is researched. Lings are +1/+1 at time of attack. Five infestors are ready at about 11:30
This video shows Destiny performing the build and explaining some of his reasoning:
Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.
It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly).
On July 22 2011 00:36 MormonWithoutACause wrote: Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.
Well, the Zerglings aren't tanking. You want to throw down a bunch of Infested Terrans (leaving enough energy for a Fungal or two) that distract and draw fire, then run in with the Lings during the mayhem. The ITs are quite literally free, and can cut down Pylons and buildings quickly. Also, since they get "launched" from the Infestor, they get to pass FFs and walls with little to no problem.
You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:
10 - Drone (extractor trick) 11/10 - OL 11/10 - Pool drone to 15 15 - Queen and 1 ling go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise 18 - Hatch 18 - OL after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front continue droning til 21 - 2nd queen ~23 OL, and continue droning
He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows: gas expenditure: Lair (get 2 evos) +1 melee/+1 carapace speed burrow? (I'm not sure about the timing but get as gas allows and in time for the push) infestation pit (immediately start upgrade) 6 infestors.
As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL
- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great.
edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18. edit2: AH FORGOT BURROW thx ppl
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
That's what he said. Colossus builds with observers are strong against this because they can see the Infestors. Read the thread.
Anyway, I think this build is strong because most Protosses these days are under the impression that Zergs cannot be aggressive with Ling/Infestor, that it's a defensive build designed to abuse Infestors to crush any big pushes and then counter for the win, so this should catch a lot of them off guard.
On July 22 2011 02:09 BadWolf0 wrote: You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:
10 - Drone (extractor trick) 11/10 - OL 11/10 - Pool drone to 15 15 - Queen and 1 ling go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise 18 - Hatch 18 - OL after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front continue droning til 21 - 2nd queen ~23 OL, and continue droning
He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows: gas expenditure: Lair (get 2 evos) +1 melee/+1 carapace speed infestation pit (immediately start upgrade) 6 infestors.
As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL
- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great
edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18.
Pretty cool, I'll have to try this.
One thing about the upgrade order: you left out burrow, burrow is necessary to position your infestors correctly. When do you get burrow in this build?
I've tried to use ling/infestor in the past, but I always have trouble with any kind of attack that comes before my infestors hatch. What do I do in these situations? Do I make a bunch of spine crawlers? That only works on certain maps. And since I'm delaying ling speed to get a faster lair, it's hard to ling backstab.
Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote: Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
You pretty much got it. Earlier lings for defense, and earlier queen, and the build pulls relatively even with 15h economically by the 6 minute mark due to the earlier queen and quicker injects.
@Vralaren Actualy the 11 pool/18 hatch is one of the most economic openings (even more then 14/15 pool, but less then 15 hatch). The reason is the early queen gives you extra larva for drones, and the early hatch gives you extra saturation just as you run out of mineral patches in your main (for the # of drones you have) 14/15 pool is a bit later on the hatchery usualy.
The key is not to get too many lings (1-2 sets at most), or you will be behind in econ. Also with an 11 pool you can get lings early enough to get a pair of lings inside a toss base before the zel is up to block (depending on map/positions). Then you can run around and see whatever you want till he gets a sentry/stalker out.
On July 22 2011 04:03 ShatterZer0 wrote: Once Tyler's storm first gets popular Destiny will have to change his opener XD
Ive done Tyler's build against this, the zergs ive faced see the lack of units and do ling attacks forcing you to make more units, delaying the push, and delaying the tech, Even when you do get out, speed lings in any sort of good position nullify any offensive forcefields and therefor cause you to basically storm on top of your army, that combined with the infestors fungal makes this a hard counter to Tyler's build At least in my experience, and ive played 12 PvZ's today and won.......1...... against a failed roach rush...... this build is terrifying
On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote: Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
He stated it in his stream. The reason is it gives same eco because of early queen, and it doesnt auto lose to stupid cannon rush.
This looks just nasty. But then again, Steven is a beast and I'm bad lol. Still it seems that all of these high dps units do very well against protoss. With the growing popularity of blink stalker play this seems like an awesome build to take the fight to the protoss, instead of just waiting to see if he might attack. Does it seem feasible to have the lings have 2 attack and one armor for the push? That would be very hard for toss to deal with if this was obtainable in a timely manner.
EPT
