To any mod: I meant to add [D] to the title. Can someone do this for me. Thanks
Destiny has been using a two base infestor and zergling timing attack against Protoss on his stream and it has been very effective. The attack is frequently able to take out the nexus at the expansion. The power of the attack comes from using all available infestor energy on infested terrans which can be lobbed past structures and past or on top of sentries guarding at the front of the expo. The stream of lings can be used to 'tank' for the infested terrans as they try to snipe key structures.
The build works best against Blink and Stargate openings since an early observer allows the enemy to attack the burrowed infestors before they reach the opponent base. Once the infestors reach the base one or two cannons behind the wall don't seem to be enough to prevent this attack (the infestors are frequently able to lob the infested terrans much too quickly for the opponent to react in time)
The opening is still the 11 pool 18 hatch. Burrow is researched. Lings are +1/+1 at time of attack. Five infestors are ready at about 11:30
This video shows Destiny performing the build and explaining some of his reasoning:
Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.
It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly).
On July 22 2011 00:36 MormonWithoutACause wrote: Thing is... only greedy FE don't put at LEAST 2 cannons in the natural, same thing as the early observer AND can effectively kill the "tanking" zerglings. I can see how it punishes greedy play, but if you aren't playing a pro punishing a greedy play is a LOT easier with the roach/ling or speedling Allin. One of the interesting things is if it is scouted there is really no key way of tellling ( like for roach/ling the drones are stilll in gas) if the Zerg hides his infestor tech.
Well, the Zerglings aren't tanking. You want to throw down a bunch of Infested Terrans (leaving enough energy for a Fungal or two) that distract and draw fire, then run in with the Lings during the mayhem. The ITs are quite literally free, and can cut down Pylons and buildings quickly. Also, since they get "launched" from the Infestor, they get to pass FFs and walls with little to no problem.
You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:
10 - Drone (extractor trick) 11/10 - OL 11/10 - Pool drone to 15 15 - Queen and 1 ling go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise 18 - Hatch 18 - OL after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front continue droning til 21 - 2nd queen ~23 OL, and continue droning
He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows: gas expenditure: Lair (get 2 evos) +1 melee/+1 carapace speed burrow? (I'm not sure about the timing but get as gas allows and in time for the push) infestation pit (immediately start upgrade) 6 infestors.
As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL
- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great.
edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18. edit2: AH FORGOT BURROW thx ppl
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
That's what he said. Colossus builds with observers are strong against this because they can see the Infestors. Read the thread.
Anyway, I think this build is strong because most Protosses these days are under the impression that Zergs cannot be aggressive with Ling/Infestor, that it's a defensive build designed to abuse Infestors to crush any big pushes and then counter for the win, so this should catch a lot of them off guard.
On July 22 2011 02:09 BadWolf0 wrote: You may want to throw a more detailed build in the OP. I've been watching/note-taking on this build for ZvP. The early build is:
10 - Drone (extractor trick) 11/10 - OL 11/10 - Pool drone to 15 15 - Queen and 1 ling go to expand, if hatch is blocked make an immediate OL, the lings will pop in time to expand shortly (otherwise 18 - Hatch 18 - OL after OL pops make one more ling so you can control both towers and poke his front continue droning til 21 - 2nd queen ~23 OL, and continue droning
He seems to have 2 different ways of getting his gas. Sometimes he'll wait til 44ish (about 2 base saturation) and take all 4 gas. He also gets it earlier and said yesterday in a lesson that after the second inject pops off he'll get one gas and one spine. Either way the goal is to work yourself up to 2 base saturation without too many lings or too early gas commit and get up enough spines to defend whatever he may come at you with. After saturation is reached start PUMPING lings. OL placement is important as ~7-8 minutes an ovie sac may be neccessary to gauge how many spines/spores are needed. Either way the upgrade order is as follows: gas expenditure: Lair (get 2 evos) +1 melee/+1 carapace speed infestation pit (immediately start upgrade) 6 infestors.
As you push with the infestors, Hive + double expand and possibly a roach warren (if you scout templars or feel it will be needed). You should get a good idea of what P is doing from how he responds to the infestor ling push. Drone the hell out of your two new expos while using the lings and infestors to stay safe. GLGL
- please do correct if I got anything wrong! The difference between all 4 gasses at once vs one gas and earlier spine seems to be a response to 3-gate/1-base openers vs FEs, which is usually scoutable with those first 4 lings. I'm working on a good liquipedia submission for it but wanted to get the responses/adaptations more figured out first cause I'm not that great
edit: @ayadew That build is what started it (some guy skyped him, linked him to the thread and convinced destiny to use it) but he doesn't do the double OL on 17/18.
Pretty cool, I'll have to try this.
One thing about the upgrade order: you left out burrow, burrow is necessary to position your infestors correctly. When do you get burrow in this build?
I've tried to use ling/infestor in the past, but I always have trouble with any kind of attack that comes before my infestors hatch. What do I do in these situations? Do I make a bunch of spine crawlers? That only works on certain maps. And since I'm delaying ling speed to get a faster lair, it's hard to ling backstab.
Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote: Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
You pretty much got it. Earlier lings for defense, and earlier queen, and the build pulls relatively even with 15h economically by the 6 minute mark due to the earlier queen and quicker injects.
@Vralaren Actualy the 11 pool/18 hatch is one of the most economic openings (even more then 14/15 pool, but less then 15 hatch). The reason is the early queen gives you extra larva for drones, and the early hatch gives you extra saturation just as you run out of mineral patches in your main (for the # of drones you have) 14/15 pool is a bit later on the hatchery usualy.
The key is not to get too many lings (1-2 sets at most), or you will be behind in econ. Also with an 11 pool you can get lings early enough to get a pair of lings inside a toss base before the zel is up to block (depending on map/positions). Then you can run around and see whatever you want till he gets a sentry/stalker out.
On July 22 2011 04:03 ShatterZer0 wrote: Once Tyler's storm first gets popular Destiny will have to change his opener XD
Ive done Tyler's build against this, the zergs ive faced see the lack of units and do ling attacks forcing you to make more units, delaying the push, and delaying the tech, Even when you do get out, speed lings in any sort of good position nullify any offensive forcefields and therefor cause you to basically storm on top of your army, that combined with the infestors fungal makes this a hard counter to Tyler's build At least in my experience, and ive played 12 PvZ's today and won.......1...... against a failed roach rush...... this build is terrifying
On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote: Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
He stated it in his stream. The reason is it gives same eco because of early queen, and it doesnt auto lose to stupid cannon rush.
This looks just nasty. But then again, Steven is a beast and I'm bad lol. Still it seems that all of these high dps units do very well against protoss. With the growing popularity of blink stalker play this seems like an awesome build to take the fight to the protoss, instead of just waiting to see if he might attack. Does it seem feasible to have the lings have 2 attack and one armor for the push? That would be very hard for toss to deal with if this was obtainable in a timely manner.
This is a solid build for people who are good at microing with infestors. Which is not a easy task.
I personally don't think so for the first attack. Just spam infested terrans, run lings in and profit. However if it does fail and you end up with a big ball of blink stalkers coming after you, then your fungals better be pretty good.
This is a solid build for people who are good at microing with infestors. Which is not a easy task.
I personally don't think so for the first attack. Just spam infested terrans, run lings in and profit. However if it does fail and you end up with a big ball of blink stalkers coming after you, then your fungals better be pretty good.
The micro gets difficult when you have to deal with colossus or archons or big stuff, but early on against just gateway units, it's pretty trivial.
Just watched the HuK match, and honestly I'm really unsure how viable this push really is. First of all huk opened phoenix into templar, which is kinda rare and really weak until the templars has the energy for storms.
Also, HuK didn't have a wall-in at his natural. Most protoss will at least do some sort of wall-in business, and if they have this its not too much you can do with lings until he is trying to get his third. HuK didn't have any canons either, which also is kinda rare. The lack of canons and observers was what allowed the infestors to get so closed and spew out infested terrans. Also HuK's force field reaction was kinda off, and a combination of this made this push herpderp roflstomp him.
this is a serious problem build for terran too Usually, the attack comes before you have enough siege and defense (assuming you expanded fairly quickly and didnt do a 1 base allin). It's also devastating if they manage to sneak any infestors to your mineral line..
just to say im only top 10 masters on EU but still - mass infestor ling eventually into infestor broodlord is terran nightmare right now
On July 22 2011 10:51 Vralaren wrote: Can somebody please explain to me why he does 11 pool? Woudent 14/15 pool be much more economic? Since we zergs usually are very greedy i wonder, why does he do that early pool. Reason behind it i think might be in his mind ; Earlier lings for deff vs cheese, earlier queen. right now i can figure out more. So please explain to me the reason why he does it.
He stated it in his stream. The reason is it gives same eco because of early queen, and it doesnt auto lose to stupid cannon rush.
I think what was mentioned as the up and coming metagame shift from the protosss comunity in the daily, the HT plus observer tech, would kinda just destroy this because you are banking on doing damage with the push to get another 2 bases. Also REALLY good FF can just shut this down if you aren't foccussing the Nexus down, because you need it to die. Getting it down to 35 hp ain't cutting it ;P
This is a solid build for people who are good at microing with infestors. Which is not a easy task.
I personally don't think so for the first attack. Just spam infested terrans, run lings in and profit. However if it does fail and you end up with a big ball of blink stalkers coming after you, then your fungals better be pretty good.
I think he did say that whether to fungal or spam infested terran is highly dependant on the player's skill and instinct. This is the difference between the good/bad infestors users according to him
On July 22 2011 17:46 Pillage wrote: This looks just nasty. But then again, Steven is a beast and I'm bad lol. Still it seems that all of these high dps units do very well against protoss. With the growing popularity of blink stalker play this seems like an awesome build to take the fight to the protoss, instead of just waiting to see if he might attack. Does it seem feasible to have the lings have 2 attack and one armor for the push? That would be very hard for toss to deal with if this was obtainable in a timely manner.
Destiny stated that it is better to get the extra infestors for this push than to have 2/1 ups b/c of the extra energy for fungals/infested terrans. Since this style is infestor focused, I would agree with him b/c the infestors allow you to deal with a wider variety of toss strats. Lings are really only cost effective vs stalkers in the open, and since you're trying to push into a base that is gonna be sim-citied and have to deal with FF and chokes the lings are gonna be less effective, and the infested terrans are a better choice since you can get them in range, or use NP to snag colossi, put fungals on probes/units, etc.
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly).
I've only played against Destiny's particular build once, but I don't agree with his assessment of the situation. Obviously if he actually kills the nexus he is probably ahead, but as far as I can tell, the attack has to do that much damage for him not to die to the two base collossus timing.
Ling/Infestor alone is terrible against collossi backed by many forcefields and blink. Also, collossi with +3 attack one-shot zerglings even with 3 armor. I think you're better off following up the attack with baneling drops rather than a fast hive.
I may not be a Zerg player (I am a Toss btw and have had something similar happen to me)... But would something to be considered instead of going for +1 Melee/+1 Armor might be to go +1 Melee/+1 Ranged? The infested Terrans would do a LOT more damage that way, and as he stated himself, Protoss have very few means of dealing with mass mass units. Lending help to the enemy race is kinda stupid I suppose... But it also frees up a little more gas for infestors (as ranged is 100 gas vs 150 for armor) and in the event that the opponent is going for high templar, he states that roaches are his response to this... And ranged coincidentally buffs the roaches =P
Just my $0.02... But I think +1 damage at an insane rate of fire from a bazillion infested terrans would equal more dead Protoss. The only reason I can see armor being more valuable is to help keep the infestors alive... But then again they're burrowed while doing this anyway.
CrAzEdMiKe, that was actually what I was thinking also. I think if I ever do this build, I would get the +1 attack instead of the +1 carapace, because even though the lings are supposed to be tanks, the dps of infested terrans is very very high right?
More like an all-in, in my eyes. Why you might say?
1. Doesn't take a third. 2. Spends all his larvae on units. 3. If he doesnt do damage he is on equal bases with the protoss, no infestor energy and with probably no army. 4. Bad economic situation.
On July 23 2011 12:01 Olsson wrote: More like an all-in, in my eyes. Why you might say?
1. Doesn't take a third. 2. Spends all his larvae on units. 3. If he doesnt do damage he is on equal bases with the protoss, no infestor energy and with probably no army. 4. Bad economic situation.
1) He takes a third as he's pushing out. 2) Well you need units to deal damage, so therefore you need to spend larvae. 3) It is effective against sentry expands because of the infested terran range. 4) Not really, he could have either done that attack or had 20 or so more drones. 20 or so more drones on 2 base doesn't make much of a difference. After that attack he could use his next wave of lava to make those 20 drones as his third pops.
On July 23 2011 12:01 Olsson wrote: More like an all-in, in my eyes. Why you might say?
1. Doesn't take a third. 2. Spends all his larvae on units. 3. If he doesnt do damage he is on equal bases with the protoss, no infestor energy and with probably no army. 4. Bad economic situation.
1. In the day9 VOD, destiny says as he starts to move out he takes a third_AND_a fourth and usually gets in a round or two of drones. 2. any zerg army costs larvae 3.same idea could be applied by any attack by any race. 'why did that toss go 2 base blink timing when he could have taken a third?' 4. he's got all the eco he needs to follow it up even if the third or the fourth gets sniped as the toss army rolls into his base for a counter as he gets hive as he atks -->ultra or roach depending on what he scouts in the attack. ultra/infestor/roaches are all strong units for the larvae they cost and as long as he reacts correctly and doesn't screw up micro he'll have done enough dmg to hold off whatever army the toss has left
By your logic, any zerg attack before max food is an all-in.
On July 22 2011 20:04 hvalross wrote: Just watched the HuK match, and honestly I'm really unsure how viable this push really is. First of all huk opened phoenix into templar, which is kinda rare and really weak until the templars has the energy for storms.
Also, HuK didn't have a wall-in at his natural. Most protoss will at least do some sort of wall-in business, and if they have this its not too much you can do with lings until he is trying to get his third. HuK didn't have any canons either, which also is kinda rare. The lack of canons and observers was what allowed the infestors to get so closed and spew out infested terrans. Also HuK's force field reaction was kinda off, and a combination of this made this push herpderp roflstomp him.
My 2 cents on it
This is by far the best post in this thread. While this push CAN work, there are ALOT of ifs and buts in it. First off, at the beginning, destiny got 2 lings into huks based, delayed some mining (shouldnt happen). Then he scouted the stargate with an overlord, this is already really bad for protoss. Then the phoenices obviously didnt do much damage, but huks expo was later than with other builds because of it. Then he had no cannon and didnt go robo and went for templars pretty quickly with very few units and no wallin.
I am very sure that he would have just died to any hydra push just as easily, and the hydrapush would have also been better in case there is a wallin and cannons.
Huk opened phoenix into templar, which is kinda rare and really weak until the templars has the energy for storms.
I noticed this too. Huk ended up switching his tech around quite a bit, while trying to build his economy. As a result his army suffered and Destiny steamrolled him with a well timed attack.
I may not be a Zerg player (I am a Toss btw and have had something similar happen to me)... But would something to be considered instead of going for +1 Melee/+1 Armor might be to go +1 Melee/+1 Ranged? The infested Terrans would do a LOT more damage that way, and as he stated himself, Protoss have very few means of dealing with mass mass units. Lending help to the enemy race is kinda stupid I suppose... But it also frees up a little more gas for infestors (as ranged is 100 gas vs 150 for armor) and in the event that the opponent is going for high templar, he states that roaches are his response to this... And ranged coincidentally buffs the roaches =P
Just my $0.02... But I think +1 damage at an insane rate of fire from a bazillion infested terrans would equal more dead Protoss. The only reason I can see armor being more valuable is to help keep the infestors alive... But then again they're burrowed while doing this anyway.
The +1 would be nice on infested terrans, but you need that armor upgrade for your lings other wise zealots kill them in two hits. Its vital to have the carapace because a good protoss should be +1 for this attack. Investing in all three upgrades would delay tech and lower infestor count, so I don't think that its viable to do that.
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
The push is acutally terrible vs Terran. One scan and all Siege Tanks / Marines obliterate burrowed Infestors.
Detection is not so much of an issue when you move in with infestors and lings at the same time.
It's a weak timing attack and as others have said it requires a lot of non-standard reactions/builds from P for it to work. As a Protoss, therefore, I recommend Zergs use it more. Not only will I get more wins in PvZ than I already do, but Zergs will realize the overwhelming (and to me, obvious) flaws in this unit composition that will actually make them better and think about the game more before trying the next flavor of "crazy zerg build"
i'd really be interested to listen to the thoughts of other tops zergs who are used to playing "traditional" on this new style zvp (i.e ret, idra, haypro)
d00d destiny did it so its a super 1337 and you're a idiot if u disagree :p in all seriousness this is an allin and it is SUPER gimmicky. you need to do SICK amounts of damage to make this cost effective also infestors are super squishy and super heavy on gas, one missclick will surley cost you the game. even if you do snipe the nexus the double expand and droning up will leave you quite vulnerable to a counter attack. like most of destinys builds once it is figured out by other people and reliably spotted it will just get crushed.
I have made this build my staple for ZvP. I am still new enough that I don't know how to ready what build they are doing. So there are times where I am staring down the mouth of a very aggressive strategy that goes against the basic idea behind this build. Yes, it screws with the timing, but it is still very good for me.
Because of the huge amount of droning at the beginning, if I scope out something that will kill the infestors, I could always just put down a Hydra Den instead (for example). This COULD be because I don't know how to effectively use Infestors as the multi-purpose unit they are, but oh well, I'm only platinum.
Awesome build. But I am afraid that it will end up like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher. Just another gimmick that is easily scouted, and even more easily countered.
How does this work on the new maps? I mean where (most likely) at the time of the timing attack, the protoss will be behind a wall of forge + gateway + cyber + cannons. What would you do to break them there?
I've been playing this a lot, and there are 2 KEY things to it:
1. You must not take a lair before 50 supply. This is because...
2. When Lair morphs, you need to be making only lings.
If you make a lair at say, 40ish, or even the 'normal' 30ish, you won't have nearly enough drones. If you are making drones when your lair is morphing, you have the critical problem that you'll be making lings from 50-70 supply, which means you'll miss the ~70ish timing attack window of 2/2 lings with 10+ infestors. If you make a faster lair, means less drones, means you make infestation pit when you can't support it. If you drone up during lair, it means you will have wayyyy too many drones, more than you need, and it worst of all cuts into your larva count, meaning you won't be making those lings until 70+ supply.
Now, your thinking, why, a third is always optimal around 65 supply, when your drone count can easily support it. Why yes, this is true, but there are problems with this:
1. You won't be making lings. If you made lings during lairmorph, that means you don't need a macro hatch because you don't have the money for it, which means it was pointless.
2. If you made drones during lair morph, that means your lings will be wayyy too late. Tech like high colossi counts and siege tanks means that no matter how many lings you have, it won't really matter if your sitting on 2 base forever.
The point of this timing attack is to deny the third by the opponent, and doing enough damage that you can take your own third *safely*. The issue is that if you drone up, then make lings, you *might* be able to defend, you'll at least need spines, which is fine.
But that means you pretty much autolose to anyone who takes a third. They will have the same number of workers as you (50, or 2 base saturation), but a hugeass army that can delay your third, and will be ahead by a base. Infestors pop about 30 seconds after any 2 base push comes. While it may sound like this just means a third 30 seconds later, due to how zerg larva drone/unit works, this means it's actually really really late. If you make late lair, then pure lings, you will have a fastly increasing army which can protect your third until infestors pop. If you go earlier lair, or mass drones up, that means you have to wait until your infestors pop.
However if you watch ZENexCoCa do this vP, or Destiny, you will notice they have extremely low drone counts, make about 5 drones when lair starts and then its 100% lings, and then push to deny a third. If you make only drones, a smart Protoss won't attack (and then die and GG right there) but will grab a third.
Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame.
The first and only time I tried this build, I destroyed my toss opponent. I felt like I knew what Toss felt when they 4 gated the crap out of me in silver league.
I do agree that you could be vulnerable for a counterattack even if you killed his expo, so you should probably evaluate the situation first before making those round of drones, as you'll just be left with a handful of depleted infestors.
After the attack, hive tech should be on the way, as well as your third base. You have upgrades for ultras, and infestors to harrass workers if they take a 3rd. Start upgrading NP, then mass up an army for the end game push.
Meanwhile, they're remaking their expo.
If this attack fails for me in the future, I'm not going to feel too bad. If every timing attack won, zerg would be an extinct race.
Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran.
This definitely isn't a build against terran, nor was it ever advertised as one.
On August 02 2011 23:50 Belial88 wrote: Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame.
How are banelings better against siege tanks?
The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks.
On August 02 2011 23:50 Belial88 wrote: Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame.
How are banelings better against siege tanks?
The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks.
Why would T not reactor hellions if he sees ling/infestor and can defend for a small amount of time with tank/marine? Ignore this strat and do muta/ling/bling, save yourself time and points.
On August 02 2011 23:50 Belial88 wrote: Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame.
How are banelings better against siege tanks?
The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks.
Why would T not reactor hellions if he sees ling/infestor and can defend for a small amount of time with tank/marine? Ignore this strat and do muta/ling/bling, save yourself time and points.
Don't really get what you're saying... defend what with tank/marine? The point of ling infestor zvt is to good broodlords, not do some lame destiny timing attack. And fungal can deal with helion pretty well. Alternatively you could get some roaches,
I don't know, but mutas are pretty good units against siege tanks.
The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks.
HUUUUGE timing window where you don't have broodlords. Terran simply denies your third with marine/siege tank 2 base push, grabs their own third, and wins the macro game. Ling/Infestor is very good against the cute hellion play we see recently, but a Terran who goes FE into straight up siege/marine will pretty much autowin. BL/Infestor is horrible against Terran on even bases, it's only good when you've pretty much already won the game. I don't think I've ever seen a game of BL/Infestor winning a game that the Zerg was losing, it's just a way to close a game after Zerg was allowed to win the macro game. Viking/Siege tank is a good trade against more expensive BL/Infestor, and eventually Terran will get more starports and ghosts.
FG owns hellions, if T sees infestor opening they should drop like crazy and take PFs all over the map like a Zerg fighting mech. BlackCitadel aka Rainbow vs Destiny are really good games on how to play it. He goes like Battlecruiser/ghost, or something ridiculous, but you can tell he wins because he expands all over the map and drops a lot.
Terran simply denies your third with marine/siege tank 2 base push, grabs their own third, and wins the macro game.
You saturate 2 bases then start massing lings until you get infestors. You will have enough lings to stop any siege tank push before infestors.
BL/Infestor is horrible against Terran on even bases
you are so wrong dude... destiny wins all time on equal or less bases with ling infestor, even while floating many minerals. Look at nestea vs ensnare. Nestea turtles on 3 bases, same number as ensnare, who denies his far away third. With equal bases bases, nestea wins easily with infestor bl.
Viking/Siege tank is a good trade against more expensive BL/Infestor
Siege tank only hurts the terran against inf/bl. Vikings are good at killing bl, but you have infestors and corrupters (which you make anyway) to deal with vikings. Terran cannot outproduce your corruptors with vikings, esp with fungal and np going down on them.
if T sees infestor opening they should drop like crazy
All it takes to stop drops is 2 it and 2 fg. Harder than muta but if you take a turtley position really not that difficult.
You are diamond so please dont act like you know from personal experience that terran can stomp this.
On July 22 2011 01:06 cscarfo1 wrote: It is a good push. But there are some flaws in a way. In his matche vs vVvTime, he lost bc after his 1st push failed to destroy vVvTime's Natural Expansion Nexus, which had 33HP. In that time, destiny double expanded to a 3rd and 4th base. vVvTime counter-attacked and destroyed Destiny. Build is good vs. terren, but has flaws against protoss. Especially when the toss has an observer and can detect the burrowed Infestors
Actually no. The timing push is a lot better against protoss then it is against terran. Also in the game against Time, the reason he was unable to take down the nexus was because of bad micro, if he had focused it down earlier it would have gone down. Also the reason he lost was because he thought Time would go for templar tech instead of colossus, and destiny began to make roaches, if he had made zerglings/infestors he probably could have held it off (assuming he micro'ed correctly).
I've only played against Destiny's particular build once, but I don't agree with his assessment of the situation. Obviously if he actually kills the nexus he is probably ahead, but as far as I can tell, the attack has to do that much damage for him not to die to the two base collossus timing.
Ling/Infestor alone is terrible against collossi backed by many forcefields and blink. Also, collossi with +3 attack one-shot zerglings even with 3 armor. I think you're better off following up the attack with baneling drops rather than a fast hive.
I don't want to misplace myself here, but the reason he doesn't follow up with something like baneling drops is 1, if he does that he'd only with with harass and not actually being "ahead" so like... There would be no skill involved if all he did was kill your third or natural and then kill all your probes. That is somewhat cheesy, plus if he did do baneling drops imagine in a tournament setting were they just metagame him.
The reason he gets hive because it gives him the option to do whatever he wants, if for whatever reason he goes baneling drops then he could do that as well... I guess its less about what he "should do" and more so of what he reacts to. Like any 2 base timing attack it has to do some sort of damage, plus Destiny is a very good player, if he just doesn't "lose" all 6 infestors, he is pretty smart about his infestor play. Again if he was to lose those 6 infestors without doing any damage of course he'd lose to the following attack from protoss. He just doesn't throw down 60 IT and call it a day, he thinks about the best possible solution.
I guess another thing is baneling drops take a lot of time to get out, considering you are only on 2 base and you start hive when you push out, you'd have to wait for hive to finish before you can get ovie drop (or ovie speed) because you have only 1 free hatch. Which means that the protoss in retaliation just straight up wins because destiny has all this gas spent on upgrading banelings that he doesn't even have out.
Or I could be completely wrong and Destiny should start doing baneling drops :O Fruitdealer did tons of baneling drops and he won a GSL :|
BL/Infestor is horrible against Terran on even bases
you are so wrong dude... destiny wins all time on equal or less bases with ling infestor, even while floating many minerals. Look at nestea vs ensnare. Nestea turtles on 3 bases, same number as ensnare, who denies his far away third. With equal bases bases, nestea wins easily with infestor bl.
Viking/Siege tank is a good trade against more expensive BL/Infestor
Siege tank only hurts the terran against inf/bl. Vikings are good at killing bl, but you have infestors and corrupters (which you make anyway) to deal with vikings. Terran cannot outproduce your corruptors with vikings, esp with fungal and np going down on them.
if T sees infestor opening they should drop like crazy
All it takes to stop drops is 2 it and 2 fg. Harder than muta but if you take a turtley position really not that difficult.
You are diamond so please dont act like you know from personal experience that terran can stomp this.
And yes terrans can easily stop Infestor broodlord they just don't try to. Ever play against a terran who gets 20 ghosts and 20 vikings and has a 2 layered wall of blueflame hellions? They spread cloak mass EMP Snipe your infestors and then they snipe your broodlords. Problem with terrans is that they don't make enough ghosts. they just make 2-3 and they think "derpIcounteredhisbuild" but they don't commit to it as much as the zerg commits to infestors.
I've lost plenty of ZvT were the terran just goes mass marine medivac against the infestors and all he does is keep his food under 80 (constantly expanding constantly dropping 2-3 dropships at once). Sending groups of 8 marines up to waste fungals. If you get 4 fully saturated bases as terran you can support infinity rax and medivacs. So you just trade armies a lot and take out economy. The zerg will do 3 things, either they will slowly defend and tech to broodlords, or they will die, or they will defend it easily and win.
The better the zerg the more often choice #3 occurs. However the better the terran the gap closes, like if you watched Destiny vs that Korean #1 gm terran guy (can't remember his name) the guy just punishes Steven so much. Terran needs to be played like that. Its all these idiots who get 2-3 bases and turtle up until they get 50 thors.
Please don't take this as a "terran needs to drop to win" Take it as a "Terran needs to drop, expo, deny zerg's 4th+ bases, and have 4 fully saturated bases and possible a gold". Economic terrans who do constant multiprong drops wins TvZ, if he splits units to defend key drop spots hit him in the front bring BFH, (how do you afford that? Well derp you spend your gas on a techlab and on your 4bases it should be ez to afford okay well not 4bases but after you expo you should get BFH) and you punish his front. Also zerg gets double upgrades against terran, why doesn't terran get double upgrades against zerg? Its been done to me, 2/2 marines wreck 2/2 lings, and 3/3 marines wreck spines and spores so drop defense is questionable to a 8 marine drop ship lategame.
On September 01 2011 12:40 Trozz wrote: Ever since beta, I've been doing this style. I rarely see snipe. :/
I think the main reason this style is coming into popularity now is because the fungal buff makes it possible to do this and still defend various timings when your infestors pop. It was somewhat possible before, but it was much easier to kill the infestors before you got all the fungals off before the buff.
I prefer a more robust style where I take a third while making ling/infestor for defense vs. blink stalkers. Then I make roaches while getting hive in order to get broodlords out. roach/ling/infestor is strong vs. most things protoss
doing two base vs. two base in zvp is not sustainable
On August 02 2011 23:50 Belial88 wrote: Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame.
How are banelings better against siege tanks?
The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks.
Why would T not reactor hellions if he sees ling/infestor and can defend for a small amount of time with tank/marine? Ignore this strat and do muta/ling/bling, save yourself time and points.
Why would T not go mass thor if he sees mutas ? Why would T not just go BFH and tanks if he sees ling/bling ? Why would T not just x if he sees y ? Damm people need to stop criticizing just for the sake of it, for starters this is a strat mainly designed for the ZvP matchup so it's been stated is not so good against T. This is NOT an autowin strategy nor does it work on every map, also it's not necessarily a strat to go "fast" broodlords, I like to go for ultras tier 3 to get a third and fourth safely then get a spire and deny other bases for terran with mutas. As always scouting dictates the game for you and your opponent, if the terran is going heavy ghost play then you have to change up a bit, if he sees your mass lings he has to change his strat a bit as well.
EPT
Usually, the attack comes before you have enough siege and defense (assuming you expanded fairly quickly and didnt do a 1 base allin). It's also devastating if they manage to sneak any infestors to your mineral line.. 
