EPT[D]Destiny's Infestor/Ling Timing Attack - Page 3
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
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krelkor
3 Posts
Here's a quick replay of my first attempt at it. Timings are not perfect, but close enough to be good in platinum. He went a kind of weird build. This should help out my ZvP a ton! http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10317 | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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TechnoZerg
Australia75 Posts
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GypsyBeast
Canada630 Posts
in all seriousness this is an allin and it is SUPER gimmicky. you need to do SICK amounts of damage to make this cost effective also infestors are super squishy and super heavy on gas, one missclick will surley cost you the game. even if you do snipe the nexus the double expand and droning up will leave you quite vulnerable to a counter attack. like most of destinys builds once it is figured out by other people and reliably spotted it will just get crushed. | ||
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teh_longinator
Canada725 Posts
Because of the huge amount of droning at the beginning, if I scope out something that will kill the infestors, I could always just put down a Hydra Den instead (for example). This COULD be because I don't know how to effectively use Infestors as the multi-purpose unit they are, but oh well, I'm only platinum. Awesome build. But I am afraid that it will end up like Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher. Just another gimmick that is easily scouted, and even more easily countered. | ||
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-eXalt
United States462 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. You must not take a lair before 50 supply. This is because... 2. When Lair morphs, you need to be making only lings. If you make a lair at say, 40ish, or even the 'normal' 30ish, you won't have nearly enough drones. If you are making drones when your lair is morphing, you have the critical problem that you'll be making lings from 50-70 supply, which means you'll miss the ~70ish timing attack window of 2/2 lings with 10+ infestors. If you make a faster lair, means less drones, means you make infestation pit when you can't support it. If you drone up during lair, it means you will have wayyyy too many drones, more than you need, and it worst of all cuts into your larva count, meaning you won't be making those lings until 70+ supply. Now, your thinking, why, a third is always optimal around 65 supply, when your drone count can easily support it. Why yes, this is true, but there are problems with this: 1. You won't be making lings. If you made lings during lairmorph, that means you don't need a macro hatch because you don't have the money for it, which means it was pointless. 2. If you made drones during lair morph, that means your lings will be wayyy too late. Tech like high colossi counts and siege tanks means that no matter how many lings you have, it won't really matter if your sitting on 2 base forever. The point of this timing attack is to deny the third by the opponent, and doing enough damage that you can take your own third *safely*. The issue is that if you drone up, then make lings, you *might* be able to defend, you'll at least need spines, which is fine. But that means you pretty much autolose to anyone who takes a third. They will have the same number of workers as you (50, or 2 base saturation), but a hugeass army that can delay your third, and will be ahead by a base. Infestors pop about 30 seconds after any 2 base push comes. While it may sound like this just means a third 30 seconds later, due to how zerg larva drone/unit works, this means it's actually really really late. If you make late lair, then pure lings, you will have a fastly increasing army which can protect your third until infestors pop. If you go earlier lair, or mass drones up, that means you have to wait until your infestors pop. I had a lot of trouble personally first doing this, I wrote a guide on ling/infestor actually : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676¤tpage=5 And I felt you always need a mass of spines to defend your third and even your natural against 2 base timings. However if you watch ZENexCoCa do this vP, or Destiny, you will notice they have extremely low drone counts, make about 5 drones when lair starts and then its 100% lings, and then push to deny a third. If you make only drones, a smart Protoss won't attack (and then die and GG right there) but will grab a third. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Horst
338 Posts
 ling/infestor might not be great vs terran, but roach/bane/infestor is amazing against it. | ||
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Grayboosh
United States68 Posts
I do agree that you could be vulnerable for a counterattack even if you killed his expo, so you should probably evaluate the situation first before making those round of drones, as you'll just be left with a handful of depleted infestors. After the attack, hive tech should be on the way, as well as your third base. You have upgrades for ultras, and infestors to harrass workers if they take a 3rd. Start upgrading NP, then mass up an army for the end game push. Meanwhile, they're remaking their expo. If this attack fails for me in the future, I'm not going to feel too bad. If every timing attack won, zerg would be an extinct race. Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. This definitely isn't a build against terran, nor was it ever advertised as one. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 02 2011 23:50 Belial88 wrote: Also I'd say Destiny's ling/infestor play is horrible against Terran. Good Terran drop the crap out of you, and will have high siege tank counts. Ling/Bling/Muta is much, much better imo. You see Destiny die to Terran who make siege tanks. However lots of Terran like to open 2 rax or fancy factory/banshee play, which means lower siege tank counts. Kind of like it works in the current metagame. How are banelings better against siege tanks? The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:22 kushm4sta wrote: How are banelings better against siege tanks? The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks. Why would T not reactor hellions if he sees ling/infestor and can defend for a small amount of time with tank/marine? Ignore this strat and do muta/ling/bling, save yourself time and points. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:33 tehemperorer wrote: Why would T not reactor hellions if he sees ling/infestor and can defend for a small amount of time with tank/marine? Ignore this strat and do muta/ling/bling, save yourself time and points. Don't really get what you're saying... defend what with tank/marine? The point of ling infestor zvt is to good broodlords, not do some lame destiny timing attack. And fungal can deal with helion pretty well. Alternatively you could get some roaches, | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How are banelings better against siege tanks? I don't know, but mutas are pretty good units against siege tanks. The point of ling infestor is to tech up to broodlords quickly for the kill. In the meantime upgraded lings + neural is pretty good vs tanks. HUUUUGE timing window where you don't have broodlords. Terran simply denies your third with marine/siege tank 2 base push, grabs their own third, and wins the macro game. Ling/Infestor is very good against the cute hellion play we see recently, but a Terran who goes FE into straight up siege/marine will pretty much autowin. BL/Infestor is horrible against Terran on even bases, it's only good when you've pretty much already won the game. I don't think I've ever seen a game of BL/Infestor winning a game that the Zerg was losing, it's just a way to close a game after Zerg was allowed to win the macro game. Viking/Siege tank is a good trade against more expensive BL/Infestor, and eventually Terran will get more starports and ghosts. FG owns hellions, if T sees infestor opening they should drop like crazy and take PFs all over the map like a Zerg fighting mech. BlackCitadel aka Rainbow vs Destiny are really good games on how to play it. He goes like Battlecruiser/ghost, or something ridiculous, but you can tell he wins because he expands all over the map and drops a lot. | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + watch the VOD  --> http://www.justin.tv/steven_bonnell_ii/b/291752681 starts @ minute 32 | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
Terran simply denies your third with marine/siege tank 2 base push, grabs their own third, and wins the macro game. You saturate 2 bases then start massing lings until you get infestors. You will have enough lings to stop any siege tank push before infestors. BL/Infestor is horrible against Terran on even bases you are so wrong dude... destiny wins all time on equal or less bases with ling infestor, even while floating many minerals. Look at nestea vs ensnare. Nestea turtles on 3 bases, same number as ensnare, who denies his far away third. With equal bases bases, nestea wins easily with infestor bl. Viking/Siege tank is a good trade against more expensive BL/Infestor Siege tank only hurts the terran against inf/bl. Vikings are good at killing bl, but you have infestors and corrupters (which you make anyway) to deal with vikings. Terran cannot outproduce your corruptors with vikings, esp with fungal and np going down on them. if T sees infestor opening they should drop like crazy All it takes to stop drops is 2 it and 2 fg. Harder than muta but if you take a turtley position really not that difficult. You are diamond so please dont act like you know from personal experience that terran can stomp this. | ||
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BlueHydra
21 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On July 23 2011 07:31 vVvTime wrote: I've only played against Destiny's particular build once, but I don't agree with his assessment of the situation. Obviously if he actually kills the nexus he is probably ahead, but as far as I can tell, the attack has to do that much damage for him not to die to the two base collossus timing. Ling/Infestor alone is terrible against collossi backed by many forcefields and blink. Also, collossi with +3 attack one-shot zerglings even with 3 armor. I think you're better off following up the attack with baneling drops rather than a fast hive. I don't want to misplace myself here, but the reason he doesn't follow up with something like baneling drops is 1, if he does that he'd only with with harass and not actually being "ahead" so like... There would be no skill involved if all he did was kill your third or natural and then kill all your probes. That is somewhat cheesy, plus if he did do baneling drops imagine in a tournament setting were they just metagame him. The reason he gets hive because it gives him the option to do whatever he wants, if for whatever reason he goes baneling drops then he could do that as well... I guess its less about what he "should do" and more so of what he reacts to. Like any 2 base timing attack it has to do some sort of damage, plus Destiny is a very good player, if he just doesn't "lose" all 6 infestors, he is pretty smart about his infestor play. Again if he was to lose those 6 infestors without doing any damage of course he'd lose to the following attack from protoss. He just doesn't throw down 60 IT and call it a day, he thinks about the best possible solution. I guess another thing is baneling drops take a lot of time to get out, considering you are only on 2 base and you start hive when you push out, you'd have to wait for hive to finish before you can get ovie drop (or ovie speed) because you have only 1 free hatch. Which means that the protoss in retaliation just straight up wins because destiny has all this gas spent on upgrading banelings that he doesn't even have out. Or I could be completely wrong and Destiny should start doing baneling drops :O Fruitdealer did tons of baneling drops and he won a GSL :| | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On August 06 2011 01:01 kushm4sta wrote: On August 04 2011 11:06 Belial88 wrote: You saturate 2 bases then start massing lings until you get infestors. You will have enough lings to stop any siege tank push before infestors. you are so wrong dude... destiny wins all time on equal or less bases with ling infestor, even while floating many minerals. Look at nestea vs ensnare. Nestea turtles on 3 bases, same number as ensnare, who denies his far away third. With equal bases bases, nestea wins easily with infestor bl. Siege tank only hurts the terran against inf/bl. Vikings are good at killing bl, but you have infestors and corrupters (which you make anyway) to deal with vikings. Terran cannot outproduce your corruptors with vikings, esp with fungal and np going down on them. All it takes to stop drops is 2 it and 2 fg. Harder than muta but if you take a turtley position really not that difficult. You are diamond so please dont act like you know from personal experience that terran can stomp this. And yes terrans can easily stop Infestor broodlord they just don't try to. Ever play against a terran who gets 20 ghosts and 20 vikings and has a 2 layered wall of blueflame hellions? They spread cloak mass EMP Snipe your infestors and then they snipe your broodlords. Problem with terrans is that they don't make enough ghosts. they just make 2-3 and they think "derpIcounteredhisbuild" but they don't commit to it as much as the zerg commits to infestors. I've lost plenty of ZvT were the terran just goes mass marine medivac against the infestors and all he does is keep his food under 80 (constantly expanding constantly dropping 2-3 dropships at once). Sending groups of 8 marines up to waste fungals. If you get 4 fully saturated bases as terran you can support infinity rax and medivacs. So you just trade armies a lot and take out economy. The zerg will do 3 things, either they will slowly defend and tech to broodlords, or they will die, or they will defend it easily and win. The better the zerg the more often choice #3 occurs. However the better the terran the gap closes, like if you watched Destiny vs that Korean #1 gm terran guy (can't remember his name) the guy just punishes Steven so much. Terran needs to be played like that. Its all these idiots who get 2-3 bases and turtle up until they get 50 thors. Please don't take this as a "terran needs to drop to win" Take it as a "Terran needs to drop, expo, deny zerg's 4th+ bases, and have 4 fully saturated bases and possible a gold". Economic terrans who do constant multiprong drops wins TvZ, if he splits units to defend key drop spots hit him in the front bring BFH, (how do you afford that? Well derp you spend your gas on a techlab and on your 4bases it should be ez to afford okay well not 4bases but after you expo you should get BFH) and you punish his front. Also zerg gets double upgrades against terran, why doesn't terran get double upgrades against zerg? Its been done to me, 2/2 marines wreck 2/2 lings, and 3/3 marines wreck spines and spores so drop defense is questionable to a 8 marine drop ship lategame. | ||
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