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*POSSIBLE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED NASL*
Puma did a really interesting opening/style against July on XNC that involved a heavy, heavy, heavy dosage of Blue Flame Helions very early, despite the fact that July was prepared for it with Roaches. Although I think that July made some execution mistakes when trying to defend against the Helions, I really think what is interesting is how much pressure Puma was forcing on July on this map. Although I feel that this kind of build seems tailored towards XNC due to the way the third is positioned and how open the natural is, I can see it becoming a staple in TvZ once it is refined abit more.
Puma's build itself wasn't really anything that special, I believe that he just did a standard blue flame Helion opening, expanded behind it, and had a reactored factory constantly producing Helions I believe while massing a Tank army behind it with another 2 Factories. The interesting to note is that due to the presence of so many Blue Flame Helions, JulyZerg was forced into a Roach centric composition which does not fair well at all against Mass Tanks. Also, due to the amount of damage Puma was doing, there was no way for JulyZerg to really pull ahead on economy, as Puma was constantly frying drones left and right with his Helion stabs.
Now I know there are counters to this, and I know that BF Helion openings aren't anything new, but I felt that the way Puma executed this was really interesting because he had JulyZerg in such a defensive position, which is very unusual. I really think that due to the presence of so many Blue Flame Helions and the amount of havoc that they were causing, JulyZerg was kind of lost at how to beat this. When he saw Puma had taken the 3rd, he really had no choice but to try and go all in with his attack, which was pretty much stomped into the ground by Bio/Mass Tanks. The flooding of Helions all over the map was really interesting; I don't think I've ever seen that many Helions before unless it was a mech centric build.
So are we going to see more mass Helion openers now? I think that 2 Factory/3 Factory play is definitely going to become more and more popular due the way it forces Z players to play so defensive. Although I could see a fast Muta tech being an issue, I'm not so sure how you can get to Mutas without getting fried to death by mass Blue Flame Helions early unless you go alot of Roaches.
Edit : BTW this is totally different from the Double Factory Reactor Helion build that Puma used in G2. This one definitely did not seem very all-in at all like the Double Reactor Helion build; Puma could have easily stopped Helion production if he saw that his Helions were not doing damage, but he didn't because the amount of havoc they were causing.
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I have a build very similar to this, I only caught the tail end of that cast/discussion, but if its a 3 factory, marine/tank/hellion comp Im fairly sure his build would have to be similar.
A question for someone who saw it, Was it a 2Rax/3factory build with the 2 barracks swapping techlabs for the factories, 1rax landing with another techlab, leaving 1 factory naked and researching both BF and seige tech at nearly the same time, training 2x hellions and tank to start?
most likely didnt use a reactor till after stim which probably came only after the first two tanks
Edit- I do not think the inclusion of Bluefire hellions in this build is strictly to use hellions as large part of my army or even because I want to use them at all, Im adding bluefire to my standard composition for two main reasons. The first is because the zerg army generally uses a large amount of light units and the second is because that is literally the only meta-game strategy related reason you need to justify including them.
Aslong as there are light units on the field, Bluefire hellions have huge potential in terms of there cost effectiveness and are by far and away the most cost effective unit terrans have.
It's important to realize the advantage provided by an armys Total Cost Effectiveness is exponential and exploited over time, its not just about the concept of "how much more Effective" your army currently is.
The earlier your army becomes more cost effective then your opponents and the amount of time its been that way equally as important
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Hellions are spelt with a double L ;P
It seemed to just cause a forced tech route which you can counter hard with tanks.. It's pretty smart to do it, because July had to make roaches otherwise blueflames would roast his lings and then his drones. Very nice play.
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Is this the build Artosis called "a really lot of hellions build?". I think it is.
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My power was cut towards the end of this match. Are there any vids up yet?
He should have thrown down the roach warren as soon as he spotted the first hellion. He waited and went spines and lings.That was his undoing.
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On July 10 2011 17:06 Moobutt wrote:
Is this the build Artosis called "a really lot of hellions build?". I think it is.
That's the double reactor hellion build
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On July 10 2011 16:18 superstartran wrote:
*POSSIBLE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED NASL*
Puma did a really interesting opening/style against July on XNC that involved a heavy, heavy, heavy dosage of Blue Flame Helions very early, despite the fact that July was prepared for it with Roaches. Although I think that July made some execution mistakes when trying to defend against the Helions, I really think what is interesting is how much pressure Puma was forcing on July on this map. Although I feel that this kind of build seems tailored towards XNC due to the way the third is positioned and how open the natural is, I can see it becoming a staple in TvZ once it is refined abit more.
Puma's build itself wasn't really anything that special, I believe that he just did a standard blue flame Helion opening, expanded behind it, and had a reactored factory constantly producing Helions I believe while massing a Tank army behind it with another 2 Factories. The interesting to note is that due to the presence of so many Blue Flame Helions, JulyZerg was forced into a Roach centric composition which does not fair well at all against Mass Tanks. Also, due to the amount of damage Puma was doing, there was no way for JulyZerg to really pull ahead on economy, as Puma was constantly frying drones left and right with his Helion stabs.
Now I know there are counters to this, and I know that BF Helion openings aren't anything new, but I felt that the way Puma executed this was really interesting because he had JulyZerg in such a defensive position, which is very unusual. I really think that due to the presence of so many Blue Flame Helions and the amount of havoc that they were causing, JulyZerg was kind of lost at how to beat this. When he saw Puma had taken the 3rd, he really had no choice but to try and go all in with his attack, which was pretty much stomped into the ground by Bio/Mass Tanks. The flooding of Helions all over the map was really interesting; I don't think I've ever seen that many Helions before unless it was a mech centric build.
So are we going to see more mass Helion openers now? I think that 2 Factory/3 Factory play is definitely going to become more and more popular due the way it forces Z players to play so defensive. Although I could see a fast Muta tech being an issue, I'm not so sure how you can get to Mutas without getting fried to death by mass Blue Flame Helions early unless you go alot of Roaches.
Edit : BTW this is totally different from the Double Factory Reactor Helion build that Puma used in G2. This one definitely did not seem very all-in at all like the Double Reactor Helion build; Puma could have easily stopped Helion production if he saw that his Helions were not doing damage, but he didn't because the amount of havoc they were causing.
You realize theres two other threads already about this build????
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it definately needs an open natural and third otherwise spines into muta's just ruin mass hellion play. On a more open map Z is kind of forced to go roach to deal with hellion harass making the full mech play much better.
The best way for Z to deal with this imo is to go with some roaches and then get a quick third, going mass roach all the way through. Evo chambers or other tech buildings are very useful for making hellion tight walls which make a runby much easier to stop. A muta transition to force thors and stick the T to his base is always good but going full muta isn't easy if you went roaches first, to counter the tanks mass roach drop is the best way to go imo, just load up the roaches into 20 ovies and mass drop on top of his tank army, roaches close up to tanks do very well and nothing they have can really stop the drop.
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I haven't watch the game against July yet, but reading your descriptions, it sounds a bit like the strat he used against LuckyfOu in GSTL 3, where he went early mass blue flame hellion and used it to poke and effectively kill off tumors and gain map control. He hardly did much damage to the drones though, but I was impressed by how he used it to control the map and "soft" contain the Zerg.
Just wanted to point you guys to another game where you may be able to see the build. It was TSL vs fOu g1 in GSTL 3. I'm not sure, but you're able to watch the first games in a set without paying for subscription right?
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It was just double reactor helions. He didn't even tech up to Blue Flames.
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I read "Puma's PF Hellion Build". Now I feel sad it wasn't some awesome PF rush strategy.
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Could anyone do a write up on T v Z? I saw Puma play against Prime once in the GSTL and he and a different style of t v z
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On July 10 2011 20:49 FunnelC4kes wrote:
It was just double reactor helions. He didn't even tech up to Blue Flames.
you obviously didnt see all the matches.
OT: It was really good. THe thing that had me wowed was how well he kept him in his base, and thats the point. Once the planetary was up it was gg from there
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Guys, this wasnt the double-reactor hellion build he did in game 2, it was the build he did in game 3. Started off with Hellion expand, but instead of switching the factory and barracks to go Marine-Tank, he kept making hellions, got two more factories to make tanks and made some bio as well. He then moved out what seemed like a lot of tanks to have that early in the game (13 minutes in) and took his third.
Was a really really cool build. The double-reactor hellion build was fun but cheesy, but the one he did in game 3 seemed so solid. July was at a complete loss, just suicided his roaches into the tanks and GG'd.
I couldnt tell whether Puma was constantly producing out of the factories and barracks or whether he got a certain amount of bio units from the barracks and then stopped bio production. Seemed like a small squad of Marines meant just for Muta defence (not that July had time to get Mutas out with the constant Hellion harass)
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I have the buildorder and timings as far it was possible to write them down.
Puma TvZ Xelnaga:
Standard opening until the first marine pops out (16 supply)
16 2nd depot/techlab on rax
18 reaper
20 command center
22 build factory on techlab (fly the barracks close to your mainbase to prevent scouting)
23 2nd gas
24 reactor on the barracks
(start hellion production with your first factory/research blueflame when you collected 150 gas)
29 2nd factory near the barracks
(right after getting 4 hellions puma cleared the watchtowers without blueflame finished and attack july also with no blueflame. July had like 3-4 roaches at this point and wasn't able to keep up with the fast hellions. Puma managed to get into july's main. When he arrived the ecoline blue flame was ready and did a huge amount of damage.)
From here on i wrote down the ingame timings of pumas build:
9:00: 3rd factory/3rd gas
9:20 research siege tech/ start tank production
10:00 armory / 2 techlabs (on the first barracks and the 3rd factory)
10:30 2 rax (as soon as they finish add reactors)/ebay/first marauder/ concussive shell
11:30 3rd command center
12:00 stim research/+1 for bio and mech
13:00 puma destroyed the destructible rocks at his gold expansion and secured the position (he built a sensor tower next to his third)
Final unit composition: marines/rauder/tanks/blueflame hellions
Puma scouted/attacked july's 2nd and 3rd with 3-4 hellions several times. these tiny attacks gave him a lot of scouting information. he had not a single turret during the whole game.
i have the builds/timings of the other games, too.
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On July 10 2011 22:27 JusticiTy wrote:
I have the buildorder and timings as far it was possible to write them down.
Puma TvZ Xelnaga:
Standard opening until the first marine pops out (16 supply)
16 2nd depot/techlab on rax
18 reaper
20 command center
22 build factory on techlab (fly the barracks close to your mainbase to prevent scouting)
23 2nd gas
24 reactor on the barracks
(start hellion production with your first factory/research blueflame when you collected 150 gas)
29 2nd factory near the barracks
(right after getting 4 hellions puma cleared the watchtowers without blueflame finished and attack july also with no blueflame. July had like 3-4 roaches at this point and wasn't able to keep up with the fast hellions. Puma managed to get into july's main. When he arrived the ecoline blue flame was ready and did a huge amount of damage.)
From here on i wrote down the ingame timings of pumas build:
9:00: 3rd factory/3rd gas
9:20 research siege tech/ start tank production
10:00 armory / 2 techlabs (on the first barracks and the 3rd factory)
10:30 2 rax (as soon as they finish add reactors)/ebay/first marauder/ concussive shell
11:30 3rd command center
12:00 stim research/+1 for bio and mech
13:00 puma destroyed the destructible rocks at his gold expansion and secured the position (he built a sensor tower next to his third)
Final unit composition: marines/rauder/tanks/blueflame hellions
Puma scouted/attacked july's 2nd and 3rd with 3-4 hellions several damage. these tiny attacks gave him a lot of scouting information. he had not a single turret during the whole game.
i have the builds/timings of the other games, too.
By any chance do you have the build of which Puma ended up with bio/hellion/thor vs BBongBongPrime in the current GSTL?
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no sorry 
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All I ask is for people to actually watch the match; this is not the double reactor factory strategy that was used. Puma did an interesting Factory build where Puma constantly streamed Blue Flame Helions into JulyZerg's base due to the open 2nd and 3rd bases. People who are telling me that there are 2 other threads honestly need to read; unless I totally misread, the other two threads were talking about the double reactor factory build, not the one that I am discussing about here and the potential it has.
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I really like the build. I'm used to playing full mech from a reactor Hellion opening, the same style used by Happy in his recent Code A matches, but this feels more robust. With mech, I usually take a fast third to burn my excess minerals, but that can leave you open to a vigorous all-in, or even roach drops. By delaying the third and burning the excess minerals on barracks, I feel like you're less vulnerable in the midgame and you also sufficiently threaten Z that he's prevented from fast-teching to infestors or broodlords. Also, you can afford the gas for bio ups since mech ups aren't terribly important (usually you'll want +2 vehicle weps so your thors will 2-shot mutas, but with a boatload of marines to complement them you don't need more than +1 vehicle wep.)
Overall, it feels stronger and safer than full mech, and probably works on a much wider array of maps. I'm definitely a fan.
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I don't really know if I like this build. Normal hellion builds usually get a banshee to try be safe vs a roach counter but this build seems to be designed where no roach counter is in mind. I wonder how Puma would have reacted to a roach counter. I assume just bunkering up his main and waiting for enough forces to clear his natural but that seems a bit iffy.
The midgame plan aswell seemed a bit odd. He was relying on keeping July pinned thus not allowing a tech switch to say muta which would have drastically effected his ability to actually push July. All round it seemed like a style that worked within that game because of factors but I want to see how Puma plays it out when the reaction is different from the zerg.
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EPT
