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This is NOT a QQ thread about racial imbalance.
As a below average diamond player who probably watches a double the amount he plays, I've come to notice some little things that make Starcraft 2 lose a bit of its spectator luster in comparison with it's elder incarnation Starcraft: Brood War.
In particular, I've two things I'd like to see changed, and a third that is actually a PvZ whine, but you can ignore that 
First, the Pylon Splice:
(Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I for one feel that this is too forgiving for the Protoss player losing the pylon, the crowd should be able to ROAR at the instant evaporation of a dozen stalkers aborted in transit, not stare as the Protoss player purposefully snipes his/her own pylon to warp in their units to their currently being harassed base.
Second, the Macro Factory:
(Insert picture of a factory with five Thors cued, in the midst of being harassed to cinders by Mutalisks)
Nearly identical to the pylon splice, but much less dynamic in usage, is the Macro Factory. The Macro Factory doesn't have to be a Factory, it can be a Barracks or a Robotics Facility, either way the concept is the same. When the player with the Macro Factory loses said Macro Factory they are instantly refunded all of the prospective units they've "lost".
In Brood War it was always an amazing thing to see a Terran player getting Battlecruisers in late game TvT, only to see them speedily dropped by a fleet of Dropships filled with Goliaths and Siege Tanks, while another squad of Siege Tanks, now with vision, instantly incinerated the Starports of the Battlecruiser massing Terran player. Watching this made you, the spectator, cringe in empathetic agony, not just because late game TvT with Battlecruisers meant that the game had been going on for nearly an hour, but because of the staggering cost of losing not only the precious resources the infrastructure used, but also the time it would take to recreate said infrastructure. But here was the kicker, the icing to top it all off, if the poor Starport starved Terran hadn't cancelled his Battlecruisers, he was just about a full mineral patch of minerals and half a geyser's worth of gas further behind! I even remember watching instant replays during the OSL showing that a player HADN'T cancelled his units or upgrades, making the sting so much more pertinent!
The Main Point
I know there are often frustrated blogposts and a universal whinnying about the learning curve of Starcraft 2, and how it's so breathtakingly steep that it actually puts off the average gamer. But, as all RTS gamers know, it is that knife's edge, that sheer drop, that's so unforgiving that it's leaner than deli turkey kind of nature that makes your heart stop. The little poniards within the greater mace that make the wound splay larger.
I want the eSports viewer to have that in Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 does have this, or else it wouldn't be as damn good of a game as it is, but I feel like we deserve a few tweaks like these to make the game even sharper, even more... sublime.
If you've found anything else you think would positively aid Starcraft 2's viewer experience without changing a unit's stats or a building or upgrade's timing, please do tell. I'd love to discuss it here (also, critique of what I just posted would be quite appreciated)
LIST OF THINGS FROM THE DISCUSSION
Knutzi: zerg also get full return if morphing baneling overseer or broodlord dies
Also, for the PvZ whine...
Have any of you noticed that zealots do not get Guardian shield's +2 armor when taking damage from a ranged zerg unit using its melee animation? Do you think this was purposeful, or just a glitch on Blizzard's part that should be patched? I know it may seem a nuisance but it's a big thing to me... why should Terran bio units shooting from pointblank not ignore Guardian shield?
TL;DR?
What suggestions do you have for making Starcraft 2's spectator experience richer than it already is, without actually changing any of it's units or building's stats or purposes? How do you feel about making Starcraft 2 less forgiving?
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I actually never noticed either of these things, wow. But yeah they SHOULD be fixed. Personally as a Brotoss (yeah you heard me) I prefer to manage my cash flow and it's extremely unnerving to have +800 minerals. Besides, I feel that losing all of these features would make the game more intense to watch (but then again, I find SCII dull most of the time anyway).
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I just wish microing large armies took more skill, or more importantly, players had more of an incentive to micro. I have no idea how blizzard could implement this however.
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Zerg units meleeing is intended to bypass guardian shield.
Otherwise i knew that protoss got refunded when a pylon was destroyed with units, but i wasn't aware that it reset the warpgate timer. that kinda sucks.
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Ummm, dude IIRC it was the same in BW. Same with research
And Guardian Shield Protects you against Ranged attack. Actually I´d say its a pretty cool detail that if you go to melee range it gets nullified.
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What? You get refunded for losing a factory of queue'd units and a pylon warping in units? All this time I thought it was lost :/
Yes, please effect these changes, they should've been implemented a loooooooooooooooooong time ago.
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Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though 
I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
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On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote:Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss. If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max" No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late). Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
Yeah those Naniwa vs. Thorzain games were just terrible to watch...
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On July 05 2011 04:59 ShatterZer0 wrote:
First, the Pylon Splice:
(Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I for one feel that this is too forgiving for the Protoss player losing the pylon, the crowd should be able to ROAR at the instant evaporation of a dozen stalkers aborted in transit, not stare as the Protoss player purposefully snipes his/her own pylon to warp in their units to their currently being harassed base.
This would be pretty awesome if it actually happened.
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In Brood War you didn't lose money for units queued up.
I'd like it if you could give a replay example in which kiling the Pylon while units were being warped in is a huge concern. In my opinion if you didn't let the Warpgate cooldown reset/refund money, it'd make PvP even more fragile than it already is.
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I don't agree that the warpin should not be refunded since there is no option to cancel the warpin as there is with cancelling the units being built in factory/rax/robo and so on. Timer is another thing but I tihnk it would do too much damage to destroying only 1 pylon if all those changes were implemented.
As it is I might lose earlygame because 1 pylon is destroyed (while warpin) because you get supplyblocked that early. And let's say that another pylon is being built and you can't reinforce to defend the early pressure then this would only make early aggression in XvP so much stronger.
I do not agree with the warpin changes.
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I kind of wish they'd left in limited unit selection. Not necessarily 12, but something like 20-30 just to encourage people to have their units on separate hotkeys instead of some huge clump. It was way harder to deal with the 12-unit limit in BW because you were already so limited on hotkeys because of the lack of MBS, but now that I can have all my production on 4 hotkeys or less, that leaves 6 free for army and other buildings (like upgrade structures), so you'd still be able to have absolutely everything hotkeyed.
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zerg also get full return if morphing baneling overseer og broodlord dies
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Im pretty sure you get FULL refund for all units building inside of a production facility, while its getting destroyed in BW. Same for upgrades/research.
I agree on the pylon thing however.
It always bugged me and its just not really logical t-t
Also it would create so much more "whhhooaaaaaaaaa" moments if units and cooldown was lost while destroying the pylon.
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On July 05 2011 05:10 Animostas wrote:
In Brood War you didn't lose money for units queued up.
I'd like it if you could give a replay example in which kiling the Pylon while units were being warped in is a huge concern. In my opinion if you didn't let the Warpgate cooldown reset/refund money, it'd make PvP even more fragile than it already is.
If you had 5 siege tanks in your factory, you paid for them up front, if you got your factory sniped 10 seconds later you wouldn't be refunded for ANY of the units you queued up.
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...
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i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
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I really don't agree with any of these points and I'm a long time BW spectator.
There are a lot of other nuances within the game that create tension and make BW amazing to watch. Unit and upgrade canceling is not one of those that is worth adding for spectating pleasure when compared to the impact on the players.
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Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
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bw refunded you the cost too?
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On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways?
Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push.
Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?
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EPT
