• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:31
CEST 07:31
KST 14:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202548RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Update] ShieldBattery: 1v1 Fastest Support! Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 674 users

[D] Little things Blizzard should change about SC2 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
July 04 2011 20:25 GMT
#21
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350

That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.

This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
XsebT
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Denmark2980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:29:35
July 04 2011 20:28 GMT
#22
Clarification of the BW stuff being discussed

Structure dies while building units: 100% return of the unit cost
Structure dies while upgrading: 75% return of the upgrade cost
Cancel upgrade: 100% return
Cancel units (including eggs): 100% return
Cancel building: 75% return
화이팅
corpuscle
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1967 Posts
July 04 2011 20:28 GMT
#23
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...


I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).
From the void I am born into wave and particle
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:31:03
July 04 2011 20:29 GMT
#24
On July 05 2011 05:25 MCDayC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350

That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.

This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.


Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D
A time to live.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
July 04 2011 20:30 GMT
#25
On July 05 2011 05:28 corpuscle wrote:
Show nested quote +
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...


I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).


I'm guessing this is also true for upgrades?
A time to live.
Scorm
Profile Joined April 2011
United States104 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:34:05
July 04 2011 20:33 GMT
#26
I agree with the pylon slice since the units are actually being warped in, but the factory can only build one unit at a time. Thusly, it is only actually building one unit and the other Thors are simply sitting there in que waiting to be built. I could understand losing money for the first unit in que though. The pylon warp in actually has the units being build simultaneously, and therefore the Protoss player should not get a refund. I was actually not aware until now that they did get a refund for it since Protoss is not my main. Interesting and illogical.
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.” -Anton LaVey
willoc
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1530 Posts
July 04 2011 20:34 GMT
#27
As far as I know, a structure that is producing/researching would refund the research when it was killed even in BW. It refunds exactly the same as canceling the unit/research manually.

Now, onto whether the OP's change would be good:

From eSports perspective: This change would be hard to notice visually, especially for newer viewers. Not much of a bonus to implement it so Blizz should focus their attention elsewhere.

From gameplay perspective: Another corner-case micro/macro trick I suppose. It has more to do with mechanics and quick reaction and nothing to do with strategy. I wouldn't care either way but Blizz should focus development elsewhere.
Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid!
chaosfreak11
Profile Joined April 2011
Singapore367 Posts
July 04 2011 20:35 GMT
#28
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231935

Anyways this ideal is good for landing players into a shithole, but I would much rather prefer it the way it is.
KingTony
Profile Joined March 2011
United States46 Posts
July 04 2011 20:37 GMT
#29
Coming from a failure Terran in TvZ, I feel the "Macro Factory" idea thing would make TvZ impractically hard against mass muta unless you are like fucking Flash. TvZ requires insane multi task from both sides already and being forced to go home and cancel a bunch of shit (because I don't want to cancel shit that won't get destroyed by spamming ESC key in my production hotkeys) could be right when 60 banelings roll into your army. IDK, maybe I'm just being a whiney Terran but that seems a little unreasonable given the already multi task intensive demands from TvZ.

Just my 2 cents
I have top 3 control in the world.
The Final Boss
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1839 Posts
July 04 2011 20:39 GMT
#30
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350

That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.


Personally I think resources should be refunded for the Macro Factory or the Pylon snipe, but there should be some sort of drawback. Perhaps a percentage of the resources spent are returned (say 66 percent) and the cooldown on Warpgates is reset.

Also as far as the whole "harsh" punishment for a pylon snipe, since Warpgates already kind of break the common RTS mechanic of defender's advantage (to build units in close proximity to your opponent's base it should be high risk/high reward, but with Warpgates that whole concept is completely defeated), I don't think punishing the Protoss in that way would be too harsh.

If you're going to do some sort of big Gateway push and your pylon gets destroyed it should cost you a lot and therefore give you more incentive to keep the pylon alive. If Blizzard is willing to remove defender's advantage, there should be more of a drawback then what there currently is.
Percutio
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1672 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:44:09
July 04 2011 20:40 GMT
#31
On July 05 2011 05:29 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2011 05:25 MCDayC wrote:
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350

That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.

This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.


Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D

No, this mechanic you are suggesting is just awful.

A lot of toss players will warp in defensive units against drops or other harass and are at risk of having the warp in units die straight up during the 5 second warp in. This is tension and punishes a player who is careless about their warp in.

If a player wants to snipe a pylon, currently it can help a lot as it delays reinforcements by the warp in time + distance, due to the warp ins getting cancelled. That is a pretty good incentive for snap decision making by the harassing player and creates tension.

Now with your mechanic if you warp in within one pylon and some dropped marauders snipe it the reinforcements are GONE and so is a bunch of money. Even if the money was refunded but the warp in time wasn't, the damage done before defensive units can respond would be enormous.

This should only happen in the case of an artosis pylon powering a lot of structures and is a reward for good decision making by the aggressor and a punishment for bad play from the defender.

What does it matter how I loose it?
rift
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
1819 Posts
July 04 2011 20:44 GMT
#32
Maybe not a little thing, but in my mind the most important thing would be to change unit pathing so they don't push each other out of the way and clump up. Area of effect would have to be rebalanced, though.
Baarn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:48:38
July 04 2011 20:48 GMT
#33
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
There's no S in KT. :P
ProxyPL
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland230 Posts
July 04 2011 20:49 GMT
#34
WATCHING REPS WITH FRIENDS!!!
Proxy is like fire. Fire never dies alone!
Syben
Profile Joined October 2010
United States512 Posts
July 04 2011 20:50 GMT
#35
On July 05 2011 05:24 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350

That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.


Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways?

Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push.

Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?


Protoss deal with getting their units attacked for the 5second warp in when trying to reinforce so making the comment that Protoss dont have to deal with it does not work.

Having the the killed Pylon and not having the units refunded and the cool down not be reset would make defending pushes nearly impossible in some scenarios. It would effectively cripple the Protoss.
Definitely gonna switch to G, the only race I havent played yet. - TLO
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
July 04 2011 20:50 GMT
#36
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.

That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.

Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
MentalGNT
Profile Joined January 2011
Denmark1264 Posts
July 04 2011 20:53 GMT
#37
On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote:
i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.


There was some bug in the beta that transformed eggs back into larvae upon cancelling the unit. It made it possible to rush for 10 zerglings in less than 2 minutes and basically broke the ladder because it couldn't be stopped so everyone was playing zerg and doing it.
What a player
Baarn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 20:55:56
July 04 2011 20:54 GMT
#38
On July 05 2011 05:50 Uhh Negative wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.

That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.

Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.


No it's not. It'd put zerg in the same boat. So when you lose tech you lose ability to make those units immediately. It'd make everything more cerebral than it already is which is the OP goal in this. Why can't zerg participate in the oh shit i shouldn't have made that unit at the moment party with everyone else?
There's no S in KT. :P
Overpowered
Profile Joined January 2011
Czech Republic764 Posts
July 04 2011 20:55 GMT
#39
On July 05 2011 05:49 ProxyPL wrote:
WATCHING REPS WITH FRIENDS!!!

THIS. This has to be implemented to this game.
Just another gold Protoss...
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
July 04 2011 20:55 GMT
#40
On July 05 2011 05:50 Uhh Negative wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.

That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.

Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.


@Baarn Spire is tech, factory is production building. You can still kill eggs. What you say is more like killing armory would cancel all thors.

@Negative money full refund and lost warpgate time is curent status
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 29m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft569
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 847
Leta 593
ggaemo 281
Noble 79
Zeus 35
Icarus 7
Britney 0
League of Legends
JimRising 826
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K808
Other Games
summit1g11260
hungrybox275
ViBE202
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1467
BasetradeTV53
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 51
• Sammyuel 14
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki34
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra2426
• Stunt498
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
4h 29m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 5h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.