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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
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Clarification of the BW stuff being discussed
Structure dies while building units: 100% return of the unit cost
Structure dies while upgrading: 75% return of the upgrade cost
Cancel upgrade: 100% return
Cancel units (including eggs): 100% return
Cancel building: 75% return
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EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...
I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).
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On July 05 2011 05:25 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe. This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D
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On July 05 2011 05:28 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment... I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).
I'm guessing this is also true for upgrades?
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I agree with the pylon slice since the units are actually being warped in, but the factory can only build one unit at a time. Thusly, it is only actually building one unit and the other Thors are simply sitting there in que waiting to be built. I could understand losing money for the first unit in que though. The pylon warp in actually has the units being build simultaneously, and therefore the Protoss player should not get a refund. I was actually not aware until now that they did get a refund for it since Protoss is not my main. Interesting and illogical.
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As far as I know, a structure that is producing/researching would refund the research when it was killed even in BW. It refunds exactly the same as canceling the unit/research manually.
Now, onto whether the OP's change would be good:
From eSports perspective: This change would be hard to notice visually, especially for newer viewers. Not much of a bonus to implement it so Blizz should focus their attention elsewhere.
From gameplay perspective: Another corner-case micro/macro trick I suppose. It has more to do with mechanics and quick reaction and nothing to do with strategy. I wouldn't care either way but Blizz should focus development elsewhere.
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Coming from a failure Terran in TvZ, I feel the "Macro Factory" idea thing would make TvZ impractically hard against mass muta unless you are like fucking Flash. TvZ requires insane multi task from both sides already and being forced to go home and cancel a bunch of shit (because I don't want to cancel shit that won't get destroyed by spamming ESC key in my production hotkeys) could be right when 60 banelings roll into your army. IDK, maybe I'm just being a whiney Terran but that seems a little unreasonable given the already multi task intensive demands from TvZ.
Just my 2 cents
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On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Personally I think resources should be refunded for the Macro Factory or the Pylon snipe, but there should be some sort of drawback. Perhaps a percentage of the resources spent are returned (say 66 percent) and the cooldown on Warpgates is reset.
Also as far as the whole "harsh" punishment for a pylon snipe, since Warpgates already kind of break the common RTS mechanic of defender's advantage (to build units in close proximity to your opponent's base it should be high risk/high reward, but with Warpgates that whole concept is completely defeated), I don't think punishing the Protoss in that way would be too harsh.
If you're going to do some sort of big Gateway push and your pylon gets destroyed it should cost you a lot and therefore give you more incentive to keep the pylon alive. If Blizzard is willing to remove defender's advantage, there should be more of a drawback then what there currently is.
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On July 05 2011 05:29 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:25 MCDayC wrote:On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe. This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe. Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D
No, this mechanic you are suggesting is just awful.
A lot of toss players will warp in defensive units against drops or other harass and are at risk of having the warp in units die straight up during the 5 second warp in. This is tension and punishes a player who is careless about their warp in.
If a player wants to snipe a pylon, currently it can help a lot as it delays reinforcements by the warp in time + distance, due to the warp ins getting cancelled. That is a pretty good incentive for snap decision making by the harassing player and creates tension.
Now with your mechanic if you warp in within one pylon and some dropped marauders snipe it the reinforcements are GONE and so is a bunch of money. Even if the money was refunded but the warp in time wasn't, the damage done before defensive units can respond would be enormous.
This should only happen in the case of an artosis pylon powering a lot of structures and is a reward for good decision making by the aggressor and a punishment for bad play from the defender.
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Maybe not a little thing, but in my mind the most important thing would be to change unit pathing so they don't push each other out of the way and clump up. Area of effect would have to be rebalanced, though.
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So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
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WATCHING REPS WITH FRIENDS!!!
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On July 05 2011 05:24 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote:
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push.
1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas)
7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe. Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways? Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push. Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?
Protoss deal with getting their units attacked for the 5second warp in when trying to reinforce so making the comment that Protoss dont have to deal with it does not work.
Having the the killed Pylon and not having the units refunded and the cool down not be reset would make defending pushes nearly impossible in some scenarios. It would effectively cripple the Protoss.
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On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.
Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
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On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote:
i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
There was some bug in the beta that transformed eggs back into larvae upon cancelling the unit. It made it possible to rush for 10 zerglings in less than 2 minutes and basically broke the ladder because it couldn't be stopped so everyone was playing zerg and doing it.
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On July 05 2011 05:50 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units. That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges. Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
No it's not. It'd put zerg in the same boat. So when you lose tech you lose ability to make those units immediately. It'd make everything more cerebral than it already is which is the OP goal in this. Why can't zerg participate in the oh shit i shouldn't have made that unit at the moment party with everyone else?
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On July 05 2011 05:49 ProxyPL wrote:
WATCHING REPS WITH FRIENDS!!!
THIS. This has to be implemented to this game.
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On July 05 2011 05:50 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote:
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units. That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges. Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
@Baarn Spire is tech, factory is production building. You can still kill eggs. What you say is more like killing armory would cancel all thors.
@Negative money full refund and lost warpgate time is curent status
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EPT
