EPT
IMLosirA's Build Order for Two Base Speedling-Infestor+ Show Spoiler +
IMLosira vs 
MVPGenius on Xel'Naga Fortress. April 21, 2011 VOD (premium account required)
Basic
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14 [18] - 179 minerals - Extractor
13 [18] - Spawning Pool
15 [18] - Overlord
15 [18] - 2 pairs of Zerglings
17 [26] - Queen
19 [26] - 88 gas - Pull drones off gas one by one. Send 1 drone to scout
19 [26] - Metabolic Boost
21 [26] - Expand
22 [26] - 2nd Queen
36 [36] - Spine Crawler at natural
41 [44] - 2nd Spine Crawler
40 [44] - 3 drones back on gas
40 [52] - Sacrifice Overlord to scout Protoss main
46 [44] - 3rd Spine Crawler
45 [44] - 2nd Extractor at main
44 [44] - Upgrade to Lair
45 [46] - 3rd Extractor at natural
44 [46] - 4th Spine Crawler
52 [60] - 5th Spine Crawler
59 [60] - 6th Spine Crawler
60 [60] - 4th Extractor at natural
62 [76] - Infestation Pit at hidden creep
Expert
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10 [10] - Overlord
10 [10] - Single Extractor trick
14 [18] - 179 minerals - Extractor
13 [18] - Spawning Pool
15 [18] - 3 drones to gas
15 [18] - Overlord
15 [18] - 2 pairs of Zerglings
17 [26] - Queen
19 [26] - 88 gas - Pull drones off gas one by one. Send 1 drone to scout
19 [26] - Metabolic Boost
19 [26] - Drone x 2
21 [26] - Start Expansion Hatchery
20 [26] - Drone x 2
22 [26] - 2nd Queen
24 [26] - Drone
25 [26] - Overlord
25 [26] - Drone x 9
29 [34] - Use 2nd queen to spawn creep tumor to connect main with natural. Send queen to natural.
34 [36] - Overlord
34 [36] - Drone x 2
34 [36] - Transfer 6 drones from main to natural and inject larva at natural hatch. Split up 4 zerglings to scout the map.
36 [36] - Overlord
36 [36] - Spine Crawler at natural
35 [44] - Drone x 2
41 [44] - 2nd Spine Crawler
40 [44] - 3 drones on gas
40 [52] - Sacrifice Overlord to scout Protoss main
40 [52] - Drone x 6
44 [52] - Overlord
46 [44] - 3rd Spine Crawler
45 [44] - 2nd Extractor at main
44 [44] - Overlord
44 [44] - Upgrade to Lair
44 [46] - Drone
45 [46] - Extractor at natural
44 [46] - 4th Spine Crawler
43 [46] - Drone x 9
52 [60] - 5th Spine Crawler
51 [60] - Drone sent to empty main for building hidden Infestation Pit
51 [60] - Drone x 8
59 [60] - 6th Spine Crawler
58 [60] - Drone x 2
-- Supply Blocked --
60 [60] - Overlord 8:16
60 [60] - 4th Extractor
59 [60] - Overlord
59 [60] - Drone
60 [60] - Lair Completes. Drop creep with overlord.
60 [60] - 7th Spine Crawler
59 [60] - Drone
60 [60] - Overlord
60 [60] - Evolution chamber at natural
59 [60] - Speedling production begins
62 [76] - Infestation Pit at hidden creep
67 [84] - Hydralisk Den
Cancel Hydralisk Den
+1 Melee
Pathogen Glands
Detailed Build Order with Timestamps and Other Events
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10 [10] - Overlord 0:40
10 [10] - Single Extractor trick 1:04
14 [18] - 74 minerals - probe scouts wrong base (3-player map) 1:38
14 [18] - 179 minerals - Extractor 1:51
13 [18] - Spawning Pool
14 [18] - probe enters base 2:19
15 [18] - 3 drones to gas 2:30
15 [18] - 224 minerals - Overlord 2:41
15 [18] - overlord scouts idle gateway and protoss starts cybernetics core, 2x gas
15 [18] - 2 pairs of Zerglings 3:06
17 [26] - Queen 3:07
19 [26] - 88 gas - Pull one drone off gas back to minerals, 2nd drone
to scout, leave 3rd drone on gas 3:18
19 [26] - Metabolic Boost 3:28
19 [26] - Drone x 2
21 [26] - 20 gas - Pulls drone off gas
21 [26] - Expansion Hatchery started 4:02
20 [26] - Drone x 2
22 [26] - 2nd Queen 4:23
24 [26] - Drone
25 [26] - Overlord 4:37
25 [26] - Drone x 9
29 [34] - 2nd Queen places creep tumor to connect main to natural and lumbers to natural 5:19
34 [36] - Overlord 5:43
34 [36] - Drone x 2
34 [36] - Zergling scouts pylon below ramp. probe, 1 zealot, 2 sentry descend ramp, (another sentry almost built)
34 [36] - Transfer 6 drones from main to join returning scouting drone to mine at natural and inject larva at natural hatch. 4 zergling split up to scout the map for forward pylons, hidden tech. At about 5:59 LosirA has scouted ~80% of the map.
36 [36] - Overlord 5:58
36 [36] - Spine Crawler at natural 6:06
35 [44] - Drone x 2 6:13
41 [44] - 2nd Spine Crawler 6:19
40 [44] - 3 drones on gas 6:22
40 [52] - Sacrifice Overlord to scout Protoss main (scouts 2 gates for a total of 3) 3 sentries warp in to kill it
40 [52] - Drone x 6
42 [52] - Spreads creep tumor 6:39
44 [52] - Overlord 6:46
46 [44] - 3rd Spine Crawler 7:00
45 [44] - 2nd Extractor at main 7:01
44 [44] - Overlord 7:02
44 [44] - Lair at main 7:06
44 [46] - Drone
45 [46] - Extractor at natural 7:14
44 [46] - 4th Spine Crawler 7:16
43 [46] - Spread creep tumor 7:17
43 [46] - Drone x 9
52 [60] - 5th Spine Crawler 7:38
51 [60] - Drone sent to empty main for building hidden infestation pit
51 [60] - Drone x 8
58 [60] - Speedling scout 8 sentries, 2 zealots, no forge as nexus finishes. forge is above the ramp. hallucination 75% complete 7:57
59 [60] - Spreads creep tumor 8:02
59 [60] - 6th Spine Crawler 8:03
58 [60] - Drone x 2
-- Supply Blocked --
60 [60] - Overlord 8:16
60 [60] - 4th Extractor (257 min/244 gas) 8:19
59 [60] - Zergling spots 2 hallucinations made 8:20
59 [60] - Overlord 8:23
59 [60] - Drone
60 [60] - Lair Completes. Overlord at empty main drops creep
60 [60] - 7th Spine Crawler 8:29
59 [60] - Drone
60 [60] - Overlord (3 in production now due to supply block) 8:33
(overlay shows 1 drone and 2 zerglings killed)
60 [60] - Evolution chamber at natural 8:38
59 [60] - 9 pairs of speedlings
62 [76] - Infestation Pit at hidden creep
67 [84] - Hydralisk Den
2 drones then back to speedling production
Cancels Hydralisk Den
+1 Melee
Pathogen Glands but 0 infestors
74 [92] - 3 drones
Infestors are not as good as they should be versus Protoss -
IdrAI wonder if there are ways to adjust to [a fast-expanding Protoss] in an extreme way -
Day[9]If there's just one key thing that can make the Zerg mid-game really strong; that could flip the whole match-up. It only takes one strong thing, that's reliable, and even if your opponent knows it's coming, can't hard counter it safely. That's all it takes to revolutionize a match-up -
Tylersource
ZvP - Dominate the Mid-Game with Mass Infestors and Speedlings
The reason why Mass Infestors and Speedlings are such a powerful mid-game unit combination is because you have control over the levels of dps they can put out: from very small to extremely high. Fungal Growth prevents Protoss units from escaping to regenerate shields. The fact that Speedlings sometimes cannot get great surface area to deal damage is not as important as keeping Protoss ground units, especially Stalkers without blink, in a tight ball, while not hindering the Infestors from getting into position to cast their spells.
On April 21 2011 02:18 Yogurt wrote:
Just tried it for the first time and OMG is it powerful and so much fun. I did a spanishwa style into mass lings and all infestors with some in his mineral line. It's so so so strong even with the awful micro I had
Just tried it for the first time and OMG is it powerful and so much fun. I did a spanishwa style into mass lings and all infestors with some in his mineral line. It's so so so strong even with the awful micro I had
On April 20 2011 17:06 pt wrote:
I always open with spanishiwa's opener so that I don't have to get roaches to deal with early attacks. I can just go straight to massing infestors with very fast upgrades and hive tech.
I personally like to use fungal, then neural parasite their colossi, use them to crush force fields, then bring them into the center of my army so that my lings can destroy them.
I find that this works best in open areas. I try to use this as map control and try to stay in open areas as I take the whole map. If the protoss tries to move out into the open areas, he will most likely die. I also combine this with constant baneling drops on his mineral line so that I do not just sit there with 200/200 and wait for half an hour for him to mine out and not be able to expand. This makes me feel like a very dirty player.
I always open with spanishiwa's opener so that I don't have to get roaches to deal with early attacks. I can just go straight to massing infestors with very fast upgrades and hive tech.
I personally like to use fungal, then neural parasite their colossi, use them to crush force fields, then bring them into the center of my army so that my lings can destroy them.
I find that this works best in open areas. I try to use this as map control and try to stay in open areas as I take the whole map. If the protoss tries to move out into the open areas, he will most likely die. I also combine this with constant baneling drops on his mineral line so that I do not just sit there with 200/200 and wait for half an hour for him to mine out and not be able to expand. This makes me feel like a very dirty player.
On April 21 2011 10:56 MrBitter wrote:
So I've been playing around with this all day, and I'm pretty convinced.
Stopping 6 gate is not as trivial as some might lead you to believe, but I think that once you get into a healthy mid-game, this type of strategy is absolutely overwhelmingly powerful against a traditional deathball.
So I've been playing around with this all day, and I'm pretty convinced.
Stopping 6 gate is not as trivial as some might lead you to believe, but I think that once you get into a healthy mid-game, this type of strategy is absolutely overwhelmingly powerful against a traditional deathball.
Highlights from this thread
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The truth about Neural Parasite?
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On April 20 2011 23:39 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
Employing heavy use of Neural Parasite will lead to many lopsided games. You either win big, or lose big, it depends on a slew of factors, primarily how many NP's you land, for how long, and on which units.
Micro mistakes with infestors are punished severely and will often lose you the game. This unit composition has a high variance in combat effectiveness. I think the only way to reduce this variance is through practice.
I believe this is primarily the reason that pros have shunned Neural Parasite and infestors in general. They want reliability so that they can consistently win games and tournaments, and fear having a huge lead destroyed by a few seconds of bad micro.
Employing heavy use of Neural Parasite will lead to many lopsided games. You either win big, or lose big, it depends on a slew of factors, primarily how many NP's you land, for how long, and on which units.
Micro mistakes with infestors are punished severely and will often lose you the game. This unit composition has a high variance in combat effectiveness. I think the only way to reduce this variance is through practice.
I believe this is primarily the reason that pros have shunned Neural Parasite and infestors in general. They want reliability so that they can consistently win games and tournaments, and fear having a huge lead destroyed by a few seconds of bad micro.
Proposed openings for this build
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On April 19 2011 12:10 BallsOfSteel wrote:
I tend to favor Roach/Corruptor based strategies, but I can see that this has potential. Using Colossi controlled by NP to negate FF usage is a nice touch and I'll try it out. Since you will be getting Melee and Carapace upgrades consistently, this could also transition nicely into a late game with Baneling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
The one thing I see preventing this from being a guide is the lack of opening build(s). From the replays, I would say these are the basic requirements for this mid-game strategy:
- At least 2 bases with saturation on both minerals and gas
- Lair tech
- Enough map control to fight in favorable positions
Since these are requirements for the strategy, they should be the goals for any opening builds that you incorporate. I use two that I think would be ideal for reaching these goals quickly, without giving an edge to your opponent.
1) 11 Pool, 19 Hatch (I picked this up from a replay of EVORekatan)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rekatan#p/u/7/8tStlgu8Tfg
- Aggressive style that tries to gain advantage by denying enemy expo
- Harder to Pylon block since the Hatchery goes down as 2 sets of Lings spawn
- Has the option to forgo the mid-game of Ling/Infestor if you see an opening to end the game sooner
- Very good against 1 base play (4Gate, early Robo tech, etc)
2) 15Hatch, 14Pool or 16Hatch, 15Pool (no real difference between the two for me)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 - A good example
- Defensive style that uses Queens and Spines to deal with early pressure (if there is any)
- You can stop at 2 Queens and go heavy on Spines if you think a rush is coming
or
- You can get 2 Spines and go heavy on Queens if you think a rush is coming (preferable, since it also deals with air and doesn't lose as many Drones)
- 2 or more Extractors when you have saturation on both mineral lines
I tend to favor Roach/Corruptor based strategies, but I can see that this has potential. Using Colossi controlled by NP to negate FF usage is a nice touch and I'll try it out. Since you will be getting Melee and Carapace upgrades consistently, this could also transition nicely into a late game with Baneling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
The one thing I see preventing this from being a guide is the lack of opening build(s). From the replays, I would say these are the basic requirements for this mid-game strategy:
- At least 2 bases with saturation on both minerals and gas
- Lair tech
- Enough map control to fight in favorable positions
Since these are requirements for the strategy, they should be the goals for any opening builds that you incorporate. I use two that I think would be ideal for reaching these goals quickly, without giving an edge to your opponent.
1) 11 Pool, 19 Hatch (I picked this up from a replay of EVORekatan)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rekatan#p/u/7/8tStlgu8Tfg
- Aggressive style that tries to gain advantage by denying enemy expo
- Harder to Pylon block since the Hatchery goes down as 2 sets of Lings spawn
- Has the option to forgo the mid-game of Ling/Infestor if you see an opening to end the game sooner
- Very good against 1 base play (4Gate, early Robo tech, etc)
2) 15Hatch, 14Pool or 16Hatch, 15Pool (no real difference between the two for me)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 - A good example
- Defensive style that uses Queens and Spines to deal with early pressure (if there is any)
- You can stop at 2 Queens and go heavy on Spines if you think a rush is coming
or
- You can get 2 Spines and go heavy on Queens if you think a rush is coming (preferable, since it also deals with air and doesn't lose as many Drones)
- 2 or more Extractors when you have saturation on both mineral lines
An argument for Roach-Infestor
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On April 19 2011 15:48 Carmine wrote:
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.
-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.
-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.
-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.
-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.
-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)
I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time.
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.
-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.
-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.
-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.
-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.
-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)
I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time.
Some responses
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On April 19 2011 16:44 nymeria wrote:
You bring up a lot of good points.
- Roaches cost a lot of supply. A roach/infestor 200/200 army is weaker than a zergling/infestor 200/200 army.
- I see your Ranged Attack Upgrade synergy argument and raise you a Melee Ranged Unit-Combo synergy.
- A fungaled-but-not-NP'd colossi not safely in the middle of a protoss ball will take damage from outer lings while lings underneath it's legs are attacking other ground units. This is huge.
- Roaches tend to get in the way of your infestors while zerglings do not.
You bring up a lot of good points.
- Roaches cost a lot of supply. A roach/infestor 200/200 army is weaker than a zergling/infestor 200/200 army.
- I see your Ranged Attack Upgrade synergy argument and raise you a Melee Ranged Unit-Combo synergy.
- A fungaled-but-not-NP'd colossi not safely in the middle of a protoss ball will take damage from outer lings while lings underneath it's legs are attacking other ground units. This is huge.
- Roaches tend to get in the way of your infestors while zerglings do not.
On April 19 2011 16:52 Xanbatou wrote:
I think there's a good reason why the OP doesn't get roaches in this build. Infestors are the cornerstones for this build. If you get roaches, you are using up gas that is critical for getting plenty of infestors as well as researching all the upgrades you need. It would really slow you down.
I didn't see this in the replays I watched, but this seems like it would transition nicely into ultralisks if you have plenty of infestors left over after the first major army clash (although the game is often over at that point anyway).
I think there's a good reason why the OP doesn't get roaches in this build. Infestors are the cornerstones for this build. If you get roaches, you are using up gas that is critical for getting plenty of infestors as well as researching all the upgrades you need. It would really slow you down.
I didn't see this in the replays I watched, but this seems like it would transition nicely into ultralisks if you have plenty of infestors left over after the first major army clash (although the game is often over at that point anyway).
On April 21 2011 01:12 GosuSheep wrote:
Roaches not only cost too much food and a NOT insignificant amount of gas, but also get melted by stalkers and immortals. Also, lings prevent the protoss ball from getting a nice concave AND being able to snipe NPing infestors. When you NP a colossus, if you are using roaches, stalkers can just walk up and boop your infestors.
This needs to be combined with banelings. 2,2 or even 3,3 sling/blings murders Protoss balls. When you fungal so they can't move, all your banes hit, especially if on creep.
Also, as a side comment, if the enemy is going heavy air, mutas can be another option, but it seems that infestors still do quite well.
EDIT: Someone mentioned chargelots. They get melted by banes.
Roaches not only cost too much food and a NOT insignificant amount of gas, but also get melted by stalkers and immortals. Also, lings prevent the protoss ball from getting a nice concave AND being able to snipe NPing infestors. When you NP a colossus, if you are using roaches, stalkers can just walk up and boop your infestors.
This needs to be combined with banelings. 2,2 or even 3,3 sling/blings murders Protoss balls. When you fungal so they can't move, all your banes hit, especially if on creep.
Also, as a side comment, if the enemy is going heavy air, mutas can be another option, but it seems that infestors still do quite well.
EDIT: Someone mentioned chargelots. They get melted by banes.
On April 21 2011 07:24 AzureD wrote:
Ling Infestor is my mid game plan while going to Hive tech. It is just an army that is threatening enough to the Protoss player. Although sometimes I mix it up with Banelings.
Also I do not think Roach Infestor has as much synergy as you would think imo. The Roach has the lowest dps of any Zerg unit. Something that I do not like when used with Infestor abilities other than Infested Terrans which share upgrades. I like the high damage Zerglings more as it kills quickly.
Roaches have durability but lack killing power which does not go as well with Fungal and NP which are short time sensitive abilities. Also Roach Infestor is slower to come out while Ling Infestor is more rapidly prepared. It also does not work as well with my eventual Hive tech plan which calls for upgraded melee from either Ultra or Broodlords.
In addition Roach cuts into gas for upgrades. Although I can see Roaches being more forgiving of mistakes. Maybe a combination of both where Roaches lead the charge and Zerglings swoop in after Infestors have done their job. Roaches do not need the damage upgrades in this case.
Ling Infestor is my mid game plan while going to Hive tech. It is just an army that is threatening enough to the Protoss player. Although sometimes I mix it up with Banelings.
Also I do not think Roach Infestor has as much synergy as you would think imo. The Roach has the lowest dps of any Zerg unit. Something that I do not like when used with Infestor abilities other than Infested Terrans which share upgrades. I like the high damage Zerglings more as it kills quickly.
Roaches have durability but lack killing power which does not go as well with Fungal and NP which are short time sensitive abilities. Also Roach Infestor is slower to come out while Ling Infestor is more rapidly prepared. It also does not work as well with my eventual Hive tech plan which calls for upgraded melee from either Ultra or Broodlords.
In addition Roach cuts into gas for upgrades. Although I can see Roaches being more forgiving of mistakes. Maybe a combination of both where Roaches lead the charge and Zerglings swoop in after Infestors have done their job. Roaches do not need the damage upgrades in this case.
Success Stories
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On April 19 2011 15:48 DarthXX wrote:
I have started using Ling Infestor too recently, and I love it. Infestors beat VRs, they beat phoenixes, since ur not spending ur gas on anything else (like corruptor roach hydra) you can get a shitton of infestors who really do roll collosi, since you get heaps of NPs to burn. Also transitions nicely into Ultras later in the game if you need to since you will laready have melee attack upgrades for ur lings, or if u choose to go BLs the broodlings are updraded too.
I have started using Ling Infestor too recently, and I love it. Infestors beat VRs, they beat phoenixes, since ur not spending ur gas on anything else (like corruptor roach hydra) you can get a shitton of infestors who really do roll collosi, since you get heaps of NPs to burn. Also transitions nicely into Ultras later in the game if you need to since you will laready have melee attack upgrades for ur lings, or if u choose to go BLs the broodlings are updraded too.
Salazay Germany. April 19 2011 22:09. Posts 1 Joined TL.net Friday, 27th of August 2010
tryed it.
awesome!
tryed it.
awesome!
On April 19 2011 22:28 Antimage wrote:
This strategy is awesome. coL.Ryze has perfected the ling/infestor opening and transitions.
As a protoss, the best way to combat this is to get 2-3 colossi before taking your third. From there, TURTLEEEEE until you max, and get a few stargates and a dark shrine. You need to be able to deal with whatever transition the zerg chooses - use halluc to keep scouting their army composition. Be ready with VR's against broodlords and archons against zerglings/banelings, with of course more colossi vs roaches. Use ur gas wisely.
As zerg, to help prevent toss from taking their 3rd too easily, get banelings with speed and be ready to engage as soon as they move out into the open.
The last time I matched against him in ladder, the entire map was taken for a 40 minute long epic macro game where army trades happened all game with many tech switches from both players - definitey much more fun than the stagnant roach/hydra/corruptor vs stalker/sentry/colossus war.
PS i'm at work so no rep available =)
This strategy is awesome. coL.Ryze has perfected the ling/infestor opening and transitions.
As a protoss, the best way to combat this is to get 2-3 colossi before taking your third. From there, TURTLEEEEE until you max, and get a few stargates and a dark shrine. You need to be able to deal with whatever transition the zerg chooses - use halluc to keep scouting their army composition. Be ready with VR's against broodlords and archons against zerglings/banelings, with of course more colossi vs roaches. Use ur gas wisely.
As zerg, to help prevent toss from taking their 3rd too easily, get banelings with speed and be ready to engage as soon as they move out into the open.
The last time I matched against him in ladder, the entire map was taken for a 40 minute long epic macro game where army trades happened all game with many tech switches from both players - definitey much more fun than the stagnant roach/hydra/corruptor vs stalker/sentry/colossus war.
PS i'm at work so no rep available =)
On April 20 2011 01:25 Shinrae wrote:
I started doing something similar to this today (before even reading the thread), and havent lost a single game :D
Fungal + Infested Terran spam just cuts through armys like crazy once you get enough infestors (and if sticking to lings, thats a lot of gas for infestors)
In one game I snuck the infesters into their main and watched with a banana grin as the infested terran's cleared out all of their tech in a matter of seconds.
Im sure this wouldn't work half as well in a more respectable league, but down here in Plat im not having any problems at all with getting the numbers I need.
(Although, Ive not come up against a toss yet... But for what its worth, infestors are now my favourite unit :3)
I started doing something similar to this today (before even reading the thread), and havent lost a single game :D
Fungal + Infested Terran spam just cuts through armys like crazy once you get enough infestors (and if sticking to lings, thats a lot of gas for infestors)
In one game I snuck the infesters into their main and watched with a banana grin as the infested terran's cleared out all of their tech in a matter of seconds.
Im sure this wouldn't work half as well in a more respectable league, but down here in Plat im not having any problems at all with getting the numbers I need.
(Although, Ive not come up against a toss yet... But for what its worth, infestors are now my favourite unit :3)
On April 20 2011 05:50 etceteraetcetera wrote:
Lately I've been going ling/roach (if needed) early game into standardish mutaling play midgame to get the econ up and prevent his econ, and as my mutas slowly start to lose their value, anyone who plays mutaling vs protoss knows that point I'm talking about, I start to get infestors out to complement my lings, and i don't think I've lost a single zvp using this where I've gotten to the point where I have about 15 mutas. The rest of the game of keeping their econ stifled with mutas and crushing their army with ling/infestor, brood lord if it goes on long enough, is just ez mode. Sometimes I mix in banelings for fun if I'm at a huge advantage :B
So yeah, this definitely works, I've tried it, and it's a blast, and fungal counters the counter to mutaling, blink, and honestly suiciding mutas to pick off high templar if they make them is the best way to deal with them, and if you successfully get all of his templar even losing all your mutas, you pretty much win.
Lately I've been going ling/roach (if needed) early game into standardish mutaling play midgame to get the econ up and prevent his econ, and as my mutas slowly start to lose their value, anyone who plays mutaling vs protoss knows that point I'm talking about, I start to get infestors out to complement my lings, and i don't think I've lost a single zvp using this where I've gotten to the point where I have about 15 mutas. The rest of the game of keeping their econ stifled with mutas and crushing their army with ling/infestor, brood lord if it goes on long enough, is just ez mode. Sometimes I mix in banelings for fun if I'm at a huge advantage :B
So yeah, this definitely works, I've tried it, and it's a blast, and fungal counters the counter to mutaling, blink, and honestly suiciding mutas to pick off high templar if they make them is the best way to deal with them, and if you successfully get all of his templar even losing all your mutas, you pretty much win.
On April 20 2011 07:24 EternaL_9 wrote:
Add in mass banelings with this and I have NO idea what to do against it.
I used to deal with baneling / baneling drops by using blink / forcefield / sentry micro (FF wall banelings, blink back, micro back / spread colossei.. but now with fungal being used by every master zerg I can't do any micro, I'm calling it broken but that's fine considering that the infestor will probably be nerfed once it becomes more popularized. Forget mass void rays, a few fungals on them and they're dead
Add in mass banelings with this and I have NO idea what to do against it.
I used to deal with baneling / baneling drops by using blink / forcefield / sentry micro (FF wall banelings, blink back, micro back / spread colossei.. but now with fungal being used by every master zerg I can't do any micro, I'm calling it broken but that's fine considering that the infestor will probably be nerfed once it becomes more popularized. Forget mass void rays, a few fungals on them and they're dead
On April 20 2011 07:41 Dudemeister wrote:
I do the same thing but I mix in some Hydras and get Ultras afterwards:
http://www.emilj.se/zergvtoss.jpg
Look at his army value!
1300 more gas and 1900 more minerals and I smash him!
I come out ahead with 40 supply of army left. Ling, hydra infestor.
The strength lies in fungal growth. Because the Protoss army clumps up so much, a single fungal can potentially deal ~700 damage
When I get Ultras later I find it really effective to mix in some banes because they just slaughter zealots and forcefields isn't an issue anymore.
I do the same thing but I mix in some Hydras and get Ultras afterwards:
http://www.emilj.se/zergvtoss.jpg
Look at his army value!
1300 more gas and 1900 more minerals and I smash him!
I come out ahead with 40 supply of army left. Ling, hydra infestor.
The strength lies in fungal growth. Because the Protoss army clumps up so much, a single fungal can potentially deal ~700 damage
When I get Ultras later I find it really effective to mix in some banes because they just slaughter zealots and forcefields isn't an issue anymore.
On April 20 2011 08:27 Noocta wrote:
Getting 10+ Infestors is ridicously strong for zerg atm. Terrans or protoss can't move out until they have the perfect army.
If they do, they finish crush and zerg only lost lings as keeping infestor alive is way easier than ppl think ( use burrow, don't group all your infestor when you're poking to FG, spell range 9, etc )
It's way more efficient than a baneling heavy army since you don't have to remake them.
Getting 10+ Infestors is ridicously strong for zerg atm. Terrans or protoss can't move out until they have the perfect army.
If they do, they finish crush and zerg only lost lings as keeping infestor alive is way easier than ppl think ( use burrow, don't group all your infestor when you're poking to FG, spell range 9, etc )
It's way more efficient than a baneling heavy army since you don't have to remake them.
On April 20 2011 08:39 MrCon wrote:
Mr Bitter just pwned a protoss deathball on his stream, with this exact build, lings and infestors. The P even had feedback and storm, but it didn't matter, it was a roflstompage. As soon as you have enough infestor to chain 3 or 4 fungals on 2 places at once, and when you neural the colossi, it's just brutal <3
Mr Bitter just pwned a protoss deathball on his stream, with this exact build, lings and infestors. The P even had feedback and storm, but it didn't matter, it was a roflstompage. As soon as you have enough infestor to chain 3 or 4 fungals on 2 places at once, and when you neural the colossi, it's just brutal <3
On April 20 2011 08:58 DeltaForce wrote:
yeah omg ive been facing this build online and its brutal
*sigh* needs a master toss to come along with a counter to this, but im guessing 4 gate with good ground upgrades with 1-2 stargates massing out phinux? i is a sad protoss player as im just getting back into ladder. oh well, back to laddering
yeah omg ive been facing this build online and its brutal
*sigh* needs a master toss to come along with a counter to this, but im guessing 4 gate with good ground upgrades with 1-2 stargates massing out phinux? i is a sad protoss player as im just getting back into ladder. oh well, back to ladderingOn April 20 2011 09:46 Crescend1 wrote:
I have tested it today in unit tester vs protoss friend. We were both masters. Generally, its viable, and very strong, but every zerg needs alooot of training with this to make it work. This strategy is entirely about positioning/micro. If u mess anything, you get raped in a hardcore way, and u have no chance to come back. If you do it right, battle is even, or u rape Protoss, depending on minor factors. Also, infested terrans are key to this strategy, as fungals dont stack. So after some point, mass energy increase dps of army only with terrans. It's very very tricky strategy, but it's ridiculosuly strong. Also, this must be supplemented with ultras late game, i think that getting collosus to break ff is crazy hard, u need to make good engagement, u need to fungal like 3-4 segments of P army, neural all collosus, reneural collosus if infestors are killed, throw terrans, and not let infestors die if they charge on enemy, or get too close. Microing single collosus to break 6 ffs, is quite hard, and still slow.
And ultra infestor raped most P armies with easy. Thanks for author for this thread, i tried infestors before, but thought they cant work. I guess getting like 15-20 helps alot to turn tides.
PS. Even with collosus count about 5-7 this strategy is viable. We tested it many times, nearly always with armies about 100-120 supply. Also hts doesnt help too much, same goes for archons.
I have tested it today in unit tester vs protoss friend. We were both masters. Generally, its viable, and very strong, but every zerg needs alooot of training with this to make it work. This strategy is entirely about positioning/micro. If u mess anything, you get raped in a hardcore way, and u have no chance to come back. If you do it right, battle is even, or u rape Protoss, depending on minor factors. Also, infested terrans are key to this strategy, as fungals dont stack. So after some point, mass energy increase dps of army only with terrans. It's very very tricky strategy, but it's ridiculosuly strong. Also, this must be supplemented with ultras late game, i think that getting collosus to break ff is crazy hard, u need to make good engagement, u need to fungal like 3-4 segments of P army, neural all collosus, reneural collosus if infestors are killed, throw terrans, and not let infestors die if they charge on enemy, or get too close. Microing single collosus to break 6 ffs, is quite hard, and still slow.
And ultra infestor raped most P armies with easy. Thanks for author for this thread, i tried infestors before, but thought they cant work. I guess getting like 15-20 helps alot to turn tides.
PS. Even with collosus count about 5-7 this strategy is viable. We tested it many times, nearly always with armies about 100-120 supply. Also hts doesnt help too much, same goes for archons.
On April 20 2011 11:45 voy wrote:
Here's my replay with that: http://www.mediafire.com/?4rvf08dn6400tas
This is high platinium, both of us. I should have parasite as well, because I was using parasite with bane drop on the protos 200/200( in antoher game)deathball with voids (with success, i got like 50 larva to remax, he had 1 almost dead colo and 6 stalks left), this game i chosed teching to hive and going ultras instead(toss had blink stalkers). Ultras were late anyway
I see a great deal of potential in this unit composition, on my level of skill (plat/dia) toss is struggling with this. Mass high templar can feedback infestors and hard counter this, but almost never toss is going HT even when he know my unit compo and tech.
Here's my replay with that: http://www.mediafire.com/?4rvf08dn6400tas
This is high platinium, both of us. I should have parasite as well, because I was using parasite with bane drop on the protos 200/200( in antoher game)deathball with voids (with success, i got like 50 larva to remax, he had 1 almost dead colo and 6 stalks left), this game i chosed teching to hive and going ultras instead(toss had blink stalkers). Ultras were late anyway
I see a great deal of potential in this unit composition, on my level of skill (plat/dia) toss is struggling with this. Mass high templar can feedback infestors and hard counter this, but almost never toss is going HT even when he know my unit compo and tech.
On April 20 2011 12:00 Knutzi wrote:
i always knew this day would come... now im gonna have to work to win in pvz : (
this strategy is crazy strong and there is just so much that can be added to it.. baneling drops zergling drops ultralisks to crush forcefields etc etc
i fear that if the really highlevel pro zergs start practicing this instead of clinging to the outdated roach/hydra and corrupter mix zerg will start to crush protoss
i always knew this day would come... now im gonna have to work to win in pvz : (
this strategy is crazy strong and there is just so much that can be added to it.. baneling drops zergling drops ultralisks to crush forcefields etc etc
i fear that if the really highlevel pro zergs start practicing this instead of clinging to the outdated roach/hydra and corrupter mix zerg will start to crush protoss
On April 20 2011 12:09 Dommk wrote:
Well if anyones watching HuK's stram, CheckPrime is doing this in some way. Roach/Infestor/Ling/Broodlord late game, absoutely crushed a 200/200 3/3/2 upgrade Templar/Colossu/Archon Deathball with the use of Neural Parasite.
Then he switched into Ultra/Ling/Infestor, which he would have won if he didn't sacrifice 8 Ultras/3 Infestors and a bunch of Roach/Ling trying to kill 5 Archons -.-
In other news, Archons with 2 Shield upgrades and 3 attack upgrades are scary
Well if anyones watching HuK's stram, CheckPrime is doing this in some way. Roach/Infestor/Ling/Broodlord late game, absoutely crushed a 200/200 3/3/2 upgrade Templar/Colossu/Archon Deathball with the use of Neural Parasite.
Then he switched into Ultra/Ling/Infestor, which he would have won if he didn't sacrifice 8 Ultras/3 Infestors and a bunch of Roach/Ling trying to kill 5 Archons -.-
In other news, Archons with 2 Shield upgrades and 3 attack upgrades are scary
Infested Terrans hard counter Archons
On April 20 2011 15:30 Barrin wrote:
Dude I was saying InfestorLing was awesome since the beta! Some people were intrigued but many disregarded it. But I knew. I KNEW IT WAS BALLER. I knew that in time people would figure it out. I was right.
By the way I just throw in some hydras if they try to go air, works like a charm with fungal growth added in.
I also predict Neural Parasite being used more often against terran but also protoss.
also this. ultralisks are stronger than people think.
Dude I was saying InfestorLing was awesome since the beta! Some people were intrigued but many disregarded it. But I knew. I KNEW IT WAS BALLER. I knew that in time people would figure it out. I was right.
By the way I just throw in some hydras if they try to go air, works like a charm with fungal growth added in.
I also predict Neural Parasite being used more often against terran but also protoss.
also this. ultralisks are stronger than people think.
On April 20 2011 17:45 Dommk wrote:
This is such a pain in the ass especially when after a battle you go for the push but the Zerg is poping nothing but Infestors and you can't make it up the ramp because everytime a fungal wares off two/three more Infestors pop and keep you in place whilst whittling your army down to nothing :/
This + Mass spine crawlers late game gives me head aches <_>
That was what Double forge was like for the first 3-4 Months, it really took a few good players--namely Tyler-- to actually start turning heads.
From what I've played on the ladder this seems to work quite well, especially on HUGE maps.
This is such a pain in the ass especially when after a battle you go for the push but the Zerg is poping nothing but Infestors and you can't make it up the ramp because everytime a fungal wares off two/three more Infestors pop and keep you in place whilst whittling your army down to nothing :/
This + Mass spine crawlers late game gives me head aches <_>
That was what Double forge was like for the first 3-4 Months, it really took a few good players--namely Tyler-- to actually start turning heads.
From what I've played on the ladder this seems to work quite well, especially on HUGE maps.
On April 20 2011 18:36 gnutz wrote:
I'm a Protoss player, low master league (after reset, before 3k).
And i think Infestors are highly viable. i faced them a few times.
If you play standard InControl style they are ... unfair. Infestor/Ling demolishes Stalker/Sentry and the 2 Colossus you have when you get your 3rd so badly. It feels worse than getting FFed, because you think you can't get anywhere on the map, no Harrass possible, because everytimeyou move out you lose all your sentries and half of your Stalkers die.
I really need a whole new gameplan against Ling/Infestor, and still i think i will be the one who is the Terran in BW TvZ.
If you go Cruncher Camping Style, yoou do no damage with your air, ifdefended properly. Then you move out against a 3-or-4-Base Zerg. And what happens? Your unkillable "Deathball" with like 10 VRs, 5 Colossi, rest Stalker/Sentry gets DEMOLISHED by Zergling/Ulralisk/Infestor.
After that game i waslike "wtf? did he have anti-air?"
So i can say. It has to be the right way. Infestors are the future and imo now a must-have against Protoss.
As Protoss you now cannot get a Zerg to T3 anymore. You need timings. Really good timings.And if you miss the first, your next timing will get destroyed by Infestors. Without a way to come back.
I fear Infestors. Badly
Keep up good threads !
I'm a Protoss player, low master league (after reset, before 3k).
And i think Infestors are highly viable. i faced them a few times.
If you play standard InControl style they are ... unfair. Infestor/Ling demolishes Stalker/Sentry and the 2 Colossus you have when you get your 3rd so badly. It feels worse than getting FFed, because you think you can't get anywhere on the map, no Harrass possible, because everytimeyou move out you lose all your sentries and half of your Stalkers die.
I really need a whole new gameplan against Ling/Infestor, and still i think i will be the one who is the Terran in BW TvZ.
If you go Cruncher Camping Style, yoou do no damage with your air, ifdefended properly. Then you move out against a 3-or-4-Base Zerg. And what happens? Your unkillable "Deathball" with like 10 VRs, 5 Colossi, rest Stalker/Sentry gets DEMOLISHED by Zergling/Ulralisk/Infestor.
After that game i waslike "wtf? did he have anti-air?"
So i can say. It has to be the right way. Infestors are the future and imo now a must-have against Protoss.
As Protoss you now cannot get a Zerg to T3 anymore. You need timings. Really good timings.And if you miss the first, your next timing will get destroyed by Infestors. Without a way to come back.
I fear Infestors. Badly
Keep up good threads !
On April 21 2011 00:15 decaf wrote:
Ive been using infestors to great success lately and I would like to proudly present you 2 late game ZvPs I won with it:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166456-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166457-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
(backwater gulch is typhon peaks)
You can really turn the tide of any battle, they work insanely well. With NP youre able to be to deal with immortals AND colossi which is a huge advantage over corruptors. I have to experiment more though.
(I'm masters league btw)
Ive been using infestors to great success lately and I would like to proudly present you 2 late game ZvPs I won with it:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166456-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/166457-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
(backwater gulch is typhon peaks)
You can really turn the tide of any battle, they work insanely well. With NP youre able to be to deal with immortals AND colossi which is a huge advantage over corruptors. I have to experiment more though.
(I'm masters league btw)
On April 21 2011 00:46 Alejandrisha wrote:
I remember the first time I lost my 200/200 deathball to ling/infestor/ultra/baneling drops. It wasn't even close. Fungal combined with baneling bombs on a toss ball is absolutely retarded strong. Think about it. Toss units get exponentially better the more you have and the tighter they are balled up due to forcefield and the surface area of attackers. You exploit that by bling drops (ya if they have blink they only lose 2.25 speed units if they aren't looking... UNLESS YOU FUNGAL 2X AHHHH) and just cleaving the stalkers to death with ultras.. you only need like 1 or 2 to trample forcefields honestly.
Sure, you have to make sure you're not getting 6gated (and baneling bombs can even be out in time for the 6gate push but you have to wait above a cliff since they won't have an obs to see it coming.
I remember the first time I lost my 200/200 deathball to ling/infestor/ultra/baneling drops. It wasn't even close. Fungal combined with baneling bombs on a toss ball is absolutely retarded strong. Think about it. Toss units get exponentially better the more you have and the tighter they are balled up due to forcefield and the surface area of attackers. You exploit that by bling drops (ya if they have blink they only lose 2.25 speed units if they aren't looking... UNLESS YOU FUNGAL 2X AHHHH) and just cleaving the stalkers to death with ultras.. you only need like 1 or 2 to trample forcefields honestly.
Sure, you have to make sure you're not getting 6gated (and baneling bombs can even be out in time for the 6gate push but you have to wait above a cliff since they won't have an obs to see it coming.
On April 21 2011 03:55 Volka wrote:
This is the way to play zvp. I really enjoy the dynamics between Infestor and HT. Screw boring Colossi and Roaches!
This is the way to play zvp. I really enjoy the dynamics between Infestor and HT. Screw boring Colossi and Roaches!
On April 21 2011 05:56 phrenzy wrote:
I feel like on Cloud[9] at the moment
. I just beat a Master Protoss (not off-race btw) on Metalopolis...Close Positions!!!.... I on the other hand just got into Platinum.
All it took was around 5 or 6 infestors.
And I just got back into Platinum from being demoted to Gold (when I played my placement match in Season 2, which I won) after having a really tough time against toss. And being so frustrated, since getting back in ive played no games on the Platinum ladder and have been doing custom games trying new stuff out.
Very Short Synopsis of the Game
+ Show Spoiler +
After trying to pylon/cannon block me in when i seen he went forge first i noticed something that i guess a lot of players are noticing. Extremely greedy play.
He still went ahead and tried to fast expand, so i made a bunch of lings and shut it down. He tried it again after no warpgate tech (I think). All he had was zealots but then out came the void rays.
After spreading creep right up to his base unchallenged and with the attempted and failed phoenix/void ray harass, i wondered how much of a ground force he had by poking a ling around his natural. There were two Stargates at the front I saw around 8 or 9 void rays.
Im not the greatest player in the world (obviously) and i knew i wouldn't be good enough to hold a third base, but i think i could get it down in the attempt to catch his army off guard and rush his natural. Well... thankfully it work.
I expanded to the far Gold and those 10 or so void rays strolled right over my bitching creep (clumped together in a nice big ball with a ribbon attached) and the 8-9 infestors that i had couldn't scuttle fast enough to lay down the best fungals ive ever landed.
After a flurry of fungals all but two were left.
The biggest grin ive ever had was on my face and after he GG'd, my smile turned into the biggest laugh iv'e had playing this game. (Even though he played really badly)
Ive been really having a tough time just playing the ladder, i know my apm far exceeds Platinum, probably well past low Diamond (with no spamming) but my mechanics I think are on par with my rank.
And as i said earlier, i don't think i would have been able to hold a third, especially the gold (it wouldnt really matter what expansion i took).
But i think i dont really understand the game that much and maybe for a lot of other players. After watching the replay, i think i could have just busted the front and killed him when i shut the expansion down. So it seems wrong that i didnt.
Question
I guess thats another topic, but can one be aggressive with infestors, there is a lot of talk is about using them when you need to... when they push out, can a zerg initiate a battle when they feel comfortable to instead of holding off what comes at them?
I feel like on Cloud[9] at the moment
. I just beat a Master Protoss (not off-race btw) on Metalopolis...Close Positions!!!.... I on the other hand just got into Platinum. All it took was around 5 or 6 infestors.
And I just got back into Platinum from being demoted to Gold (when I played my placement match in Season 2, which I won) after having a really tough time against toss. And being so frustrated, since getting back in ive played no games on the Platinum ladder and have been doing custom games trying new stuff out.
Very Short Synopsis of the Game
+ Show Spoiler +
After trying to pylon/cannon block me in when i seen he went forge first i noticed something that i guess a lot of players are noticing. Extremely greedy play.
He still went ahead and tried to fast expand, so i made a bunch of lings and shut it down. He tried it again after no warpgate tech (I think). All he had was zealots but then out came the void rays.
After spreading creep right up to his base unchallenged and with the attempted and failed phoenix/void ray harass, i wondered how much of a ground force he had by poking a ling around his natural. There were two Stargates at the front I saw around 8 or 9 void rays.
Im not the greatest player in the world (obviously) and i knew i wouldn't be good enough to hold a third base, but i think i could get it down in the attempt to catch his army off guard and rush his natural. Well... thankfully it work.
I expanded to the far Gold and those 10 or so void rays strolled right over my bitching creep (clumped together in a nice big ball with a ribbon attached) and the 8-9 infestors that i had couldn't scuttle fast enough to lay down the best fungals ive ever landed.
After a flurry of fungals all but two were left.
The biggest grin ive ever had was on my face and after he GG'd, my smile turned into the biggest laugh iv'e had playing this game. (Even though he played really badly)
Ive been really having a tough time just playing the ladder, i know my apm far exceeds Platinum, probably well past low Diamond (with no spamming) but my mechanics I think are on par with my rank.
And as i said earlier, i don't think i would have been able to hold a third, especially the gold (it wouldnt really matter what expansion i took).
But i think i dont really understand the game that much and maybe for a lot of other players. After watching the replay, i think i could have just busted the front and killed him when i shut the expansion down. So it seems wrong that i didnt.
Question
I guess thats another topic, but can one be aggressive with infestors, there is a lot of talk is about using them when you need to... when they push out, can a zerg initiate a battle when they feel comfortable to instead of holding off what comes at them?
Related Threads
+ Show Spoiler +
9 pool opening
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 19 2011 20:20 aXa wrote:
Maybe you should all check
9 pool opening ZvP. Zergling/baneling/Infest
If this compo/strat really interest you.
Neural parasite work very well against collosi, because they target the zergling first and you have plenty of time to NP all of them.
HT isn't that good. Better than colossi, but without KA, it is very delicate to use.
Maybe you should all check
9 pool opening ZvP. Zergling/baneling/Infest
If this compo/strat really interest you.
Neural parasite work very well against collosi, because they target the zergling first and you have plenty of time to NP all of them.
HT isn't that good. Better than colossi, but without KA, it is very delicate to use.
Questions, Research, and Analysis on Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 20 2011 23:33 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
I knew, and posted about it too! Haha, credit to the @OP though for taking the time to really drive the point home by including the video and the replays. I don't think much was written about Neural Parasiting Colossus, certainly not presented so well. I had done unit tests where I Neural Parasited Colossus, and fungaled the deathball, but usually failed to pull it off in real games, but this was before the fungal buff.
The key to infestor/ling working I think is that mass lings often force the Protoss to go into ball formation and lay down a lot of force fields as the lings charge in.... which sets them up perfectly for fungal and NP. Force fields actually can make Neural Parasite far more effective by keeping the enemy away from your infestors!
Definitely takes some micro skill to pull this off, but I think after a little practice most players can pull this off, and certainly pros can.
I think most of us that have theorycrafted our brains out about infestors have predicted that eventually they would start to be used a lot more, to solve many zerg weaknesses. The same thing has happened, or will happen for Queens, Neural Parasite, and Nydus. We are already seeing more top players utilize that stuff that was ignored for a long time. Even baneling drops used to be a rarely seen tactic, but it is now becoming increasingly more common.
Appendix:
Some pretty long posts I have made about infestors:
Infestors in general (before the Fungal buff, so I had my doubts still)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189261¤tpage=7#137
Infestors ZvP
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208275¤tpage=7#122
My analysis on using the (newly buffed Fungal) combined with Corruption
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198374
My guide to Neural Parasite versus Thor, where I discuss the "damage swing" caused by stealing a Thor, the same type of analysis could be applied to Colossus. (spoiler, by stealing a single Thor, it can cause a 1500-2000 swing in health loss/dealt)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144948
I knew, and posted about it too! Haha, credit to the @OP though for taking the time to really drive the point home by including the video and the replays. I don't think much was written about Neural Parasiting Colossus, certainly not presented so well. I had done unit tests where I Neural Parasited Colossus, and fungaled the deathball, but usually failed to pull it off in real games, but this was before the fungal buff.
The key to infestor/ling working I think is that mass lings often force the Protoss to go into ball formation and lay down a lot of force fields as the lings charge in.... which sets them up perfectly for fungal and NP. Force fields actually can make Neural Parasite far more effective by keeping the enemy away from your infestors!
Definitely takes some micro skill to pull this off, but I think after a little practice most players can pull this off, and certainly pros can.
I think most of us that have theorycrafted our brains out about infestors have predicted that eventually they would start to be used a lot more, to solve many zerg weaknesses. The same thing has happened, or will happen for Queens, Neural Parasite, and Nydus. We are already seeing more top players utilize that stuff that was ignored for a long time. Even baneling drops used to be a rarely seen tactic, but it is now becoming increasingly more common.
Appendix:
Some pretty long posts I have made about infestors:
Infestors in general (before the Fungal buff, so I had my doubts still)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189261¤tpage=7#137
Infestors ZvP
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208275¤tpage=7#122
My analysis on using the (newly buffed Fungal) combined with Corruption
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198374
My guide to Neural Parasite versus Thor, where I discuss the "damage swing" caused by stealing a Thor, the same type of analysis could be applied to Colossus. (spoiler, by stealing a single Thor, it can cause a 1500-2000 swing in health loss/dealt)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144948
Mass Infestor FAQ
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Introduction / General
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Eh, who's this noob?
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Hi there! I’m phrontis, 31 year old korean-american Zerg player.
I am a long time reader/lurker of TL.net. Before this thread, I was vying with TSL 1's Liquibet winner BreakEnter for the crown of fewest posts per year.
I started playing BroodWar 1998 with my brotherZelniq. In BroodWar, we played all three races in mostly non-mirror matchups. I partly blame this for our difficulty breaking into B- level on ICCup. If only there was a tournament where players had to play each matchup (best of 9).
Unlike my brother who started playing StarCraft 2 since the beginning of the beta, I only picked it up last November. Here's my sc2rank profile if you're interested. My brother advised me to pick a race besides Zerg to play (i think because he said something about how he feels Blizzard designed Zerg poorly), and thinks I did it just to spite him. Not true. Zerg was my strongest race in BroodWar. Speedlings were just too good. (hmm....) My speciality was only being able to comfortably use 3 hotkeys for Zerg units (Maximum of 12 Mutas on #1, 12 Zerglings on #2, 12 Zerglings on #3...which is only about 28 supply hotkeyed. Yet somehow i was able to manage siege tanks on #4 and vessels on #5. Go Figure). The rest of my units I had to micro without hotkeys. As you'll see in the video above and the replays below, 3-5 unit hotkeys has now become 1. Don't play like I do, just see the strength of what I'm talking about.
Thanks and I'd love to read your comments. And if you're a protoss player who honestly thinks this strategy isn't viable, please feel free to wholeheartedly praise the merits of this build.
I am a long time reader/lurker of TL.net. Before this thread, I was vying with TSL 1's Liquibet winner BreakEnter for the crown of fewest posts per year.
I started playing BroodWar 1998 with my brother
Zelniq. In BroodWar, we played all three races in mostly non-mirror matchups. I partly blame this for our difficulty breaking into B- level on ICCup. If only there was a tournament where players had to play each matchup (best of 9).Unlike my brother who started playing StarCraft 2 since the beginning of the beta, I only picked it up last November. Here's my sc2rank profile if you're interested. My brother advised me to pick a race besides Zerg to play (i think because he said something about how he feels Blizzard designed Zerg poorly), and thinks I did it just to spite him. Not true. Zerg was my strongest race in BroodWar. Speedlings were just too good. (hmm....) My speciality was only being able to comfortably use 3 hotkeys for Zerg units (Maximum of 12 Mutas on #1, 12 Zerglings on #2, 12 Zerglings on #3...which is only about 28 supply hotkeyed. Yet somehow i was able to manage siege tanks on #4 and vessels on #5. Go Figure). The rest of my units I had to micro without hotkeys. As you'll see in the video above and the replays below, 3-5 unit hotkeys has now become 1. Don't play like I do, just see the strength of what I'm talking about.
Thanks and I'd love to read your comments. And if you're a protoss player who honestly thinks this strategy isn't viable, please feel free to wholeheartedly praise the merits of this build.
What’s this thread about?
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Hopefully, an evidence based discussion of how to incorporate mass infestors into your mid-game ZvP. I will review replays posted and attempt to give any advice I can.
Part of the beauty of standard PvZ is Protoss' ability to poke with their army (i.e. seeHuK play PvZ) and make good use of the sentry energy they've been building up (instead of letting them sit on max energy). Engaging the protoss army once you have baneling drops or infestors to eliminate the bulk of the sentries will force Protoss to adapt from their standard sentry heavy openings.
Part of the beauty of standard PvZ is Protoss' ability to poke with their army (i.e. see
HuK play PvZ) and make good use of the sentry energy they've been building up (instead of letting them sit on max energy). Engaging the protoss army once you have baneling drops or infestors to eliminate the bulk of the sentries will force Protoss to adapt from their standard sentry heavy openings.Background of the Current State of ZvP
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IdrA talking about Zerg problems on the new maps+ Show Spoiler +
"People are starting to realize that Zerg's late game isn't actually that strong. It was just that Terrans and Protoss lacked experience with it. They're gaining that experience. It's kind of kicking in how bad our hive tech units actually are.
The thing you get with big maps is there's this tipping point. If it's too small then we die to rushes because we are the defensive race early on, generally speaking. Protoss and Terran aggressive builds are quite a bit stronger than ours. But if if you make [the maps] too big, then yeah we don't die to rushes but we don't have good creep spread mid-game.
Mid-game is where Zerg has to win right now. You have to get that muta ball up and do a bunch of damage to Terran or you have to be able to engage Protoss and keep their army, especially their Colossus count, down. If you don't have creep, it really becomes nearly suicidal to do that with most units.
So basically we're stuck at this point where yeah we can get up a big economy. But we can never use it aggressively if Terran or Protoss just chooses to defend. Then we get to late game situations where Terran or Protoss have their death balls and we're stuck with Brood Lords hoping they don't see them. The big maps aren't really helping Zerg that much."
--IdrA on SotG EP 30 , March 9, 2011
The thing you get with big maps is there's this tipping point. If it's too small then we die to rushes because we are the defensive race early on, generally speaking. Protoss and Terran aggressive builds are quite a bit stronger than ours. But if if you make [the maps] too big, then yeah we don't die to rushes but we don't have good creep spread mid-game.
Mid-game is where Zerg has to win right now. You have to get that muta ball up and do a bunch of damage to Terran or you have to be able to engage Protoss and keep their army, especially their Colossus count, down. If you don't have creep, it really becomes nearly suicidal to do that with most units.
So basically we're stuck at this point where yeah we can get up a big economy. But we can never use it aggressively if Terran or Protoss just chooses to defend. Then we get to late game situations where Terran or Protoss have their death balls and we're stuck with Brood Lords hoping they don't see them. The big maps aren't really helping Zerg that much."
--
IdrA on SotG EP 30 , March 9, 2011Tyler's Five-Door Analogy+ Show Spoiler +
Here's an analogy:
You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?
Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.
The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."
IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.
That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!
source
You are regularly presented with a set of 5 doors. The only way you ever get food is by opening the doors. Every time that you opened 5 doors, you got food from at least one of them. You've currently opened 2 doors, but can't figure out how to open any more. Are you going to spend your time trying to open a 3rd door, or are you gonna ponder whether opening all 5 doors guarantees food? How much time will you spend trying to open the 3rd door, and how much time will you spend checking the two opened doors again and again?
Day[9] thinks StarCraft players' only job is to open doors. There is nothing else. Perhaps on your lunch break you can engage in some idle conversation about the metaphysics of the doors and the morality of opening them. But it's just idle conversation. 99% of the time it's just this: open doors, open doors, open doors.
The real argument that would happen between Day[9] and IdrA is about whether or not all 5 doors have been opened. Day[9] thinks they're not all opened. He can see them. Maybe one is cracked, and no one is sure whether food can be smelt on the other side, but it's certainly not open and clear to everyone. This isn't faith or belief or any kind of "balance zealotry." Perhaps people have interacted with the closed doors, but they haven't picked the lock and turned the handle and swung it wide open. Faith comes in if he says "I know you guys worked your asses off to open 4 doors only to be disappointed. And you've spent months trying to open the 5th door. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT rebel against your circumstances!!! TRUST me. Keep working on opening the last door. When you do, you will get food." Such opinions would certainly constitute faith of a sort. But like we've said at the start, every time that all the doors have been opened, food was in at least one. There's just never been a way to prove that food is guaranteed. Faith would also come in when Day[9] says "Hey, there's definitely a 6th door out there somewhere. It's nowhere in sight, but let's try all sorts of crazy things and see if we come upon it."
IdrA would say he's opened all the doors, or at least inspected the unopen ones well enough to know there's no food behind them. Or he's gonna say how it's easier for his Protoss friend to open his doors.
That's the gist of things. And we can't very well be experts on things that aren't in the open and clear. So that's all Day[9] can say is "hey try getting a ton of infestors in this specific way and see how that works" and I can say "hey, balance your resources toward gas as heavily as possible without dying and see how that works" because those kinds of things are unopened doors to us. And IdrA would have to spend many hours of practice to open them and perhaps find no food behind them, which would be doubly frustrating when that was his suspicion the whole time. But damn it, that's StarCraft. Opening doors is what we do. Being the first to find food is the greatest pleasure a player can have!
source
Two Protosses walk into a bar...
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Day[9]: I still haven't seen many Zerg's just go NUTS with Infestors in Zerg vs Protoss.iNcontroL: That's true...Day[9]: Because if you do - dear Protosses please speak to this truth - It's like unfair. When Zerg has like 12 Infestors, and it's like his whole army.iNcontroL: They're expensive. It's harder. But you're right. There should be more of them, that's for sure.Tyler: Yeah.Day[9]: It's like, I hardly wanna build anything that costs gas except for [Infestors].iNcontroL: Brood Lord, Corruptor, Infestor, and anything to support them is invincible, actually.Day[9]: I've been saying this to tons of people lately.and a little bit later
Tyler brings up one of the most poignant points of the episode:Tyler: The other thing about Nydus Worms is like, Zerg will say "Well, it can be stopped." That's why they say it's too expensive, I think. They're like, "It's not high enough success rate." But it's not that bad. Let me tell you a story about this game called StarCraft 1... In TvZ, dropships are going around the map nonstop, and Zerg had these units called Scourge. Which are faster than dropships. And pretty much flying everywhere from any decent Zerg playing ZvT.Day[9]: And Scourge are flying banelings! That don't do 30 damage, they did 110 damage per hit!Tyler: You got a pair of them for 25 minerals and 75 gas. You just fly 'em around in pairs. Any time a dropship was spotted by your billion overlords everywhere, You're just like...Oh! kill the dropship easily. And yet, you can't play TvZ without threatening to drop, and actually dropping all game long.iNcontroL: Yes! Such a good point.Tyler: That's when we saw nonstop drops in high-level TvZ. High-level TvZ is like, just drops! And Scourge exist! It's like, if this happened if where we were in StarCraft 1 like we are at with StarCraft 2 right now, we would tell Terrans, "Hey, you need to drop more." And they're like, "Uhh, are you dumb? Zerg have scourge. You can't do drop play against Zerg." But it's like, that's not how StarCraft works! You can't just say, "There's this way to stop it. Easily. And my opponents are always gonna stop it." There's ways to force things. That's what pro players have to do.Day[9]: Yeah!- From SotG - EP 34,
segment begins at 57:30 mark. Every Zerg should listen to that discussion.
iNcontroL is not happy with how immobile current Zerg styles are.This FAQ format seems awfully familiar...
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Yeah, I stole it straight from my favorite guide: [G] Terran FAQ for BroodWar
Before and After:
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![[image loading]](http://s1.bild.me/bilder/110211/7942210death-star-1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s1.bild.me/bilder/110211/6963322BeachBall.jpg)
The Four-Stages of Mass-Infestor ZvP
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- Under Construction
- Make Zerglings. You will need macro/expansion hatches to afford all the larva you'll need for this strategy. Having good inject mechanics is very helpful here. At the same time you begin researching Pathogen Glands, start one round of Infestors as well. Start another round of Infestor production at about the halfway mark of research. This timing is to allow your second round of Infestors to start with 75 energy instead of 50. Any Infestors you started at the beginning of Pathogen Glands research will have 70 energy. Research Neural Parasite to counter Colossus Tech.
- Now that you have Speedlings and Infestors, you can control the open middle of the map. I will try to map out suggestions for what to do with your units soon.
- After you've established your lead, you can tech to some finishing Hive-Tech units. I am still quite underwhelmed with Ultralisks, but in the right situations, I'm sure they are a good thing to have. I prefer Broodlords, and think they might be necessary to break some Protoss static defensive positions.
20 Reasons Why Zergs Should Go Zergling-Infestor
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- The mid-game is your playground
- No over/under-making a unit anymore(roaches, corruptors, banelings, etc.)
- The tech is cheaper
+ Show Spoiler +- Zergling-Infestor (w/ NP): 400/400 + 1 drone
- Roach-Muta/Corruptor: 600/450 + 2 drones
- Roach-Infestor (w/ NP): 800/650 + 2 drones
- Baneling-Infestor(w/ NP): 850/800 + 2 drones
- Roach-Hydra-Corruptor: 850/700 + 3 drones
Zerg Tech Costs
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bane nest 100/50
roach warren 150
hydra den 100/100
spire 200/200
glial reconstitution 100/100
tunneling claws 150/150
grooved spines 150/150
centrifugal hooks 150/150
pneumatized carapace 100/100
ventral sacs 200/200
infestation pit 100/100
pathogen glands 150/150
neural parasite 150/150 - Zergling-Infestor (w/ NP): 400/400 + 1 drone
- Fungal is psi storm + ensnare that only hits enemy units.
- Neural gives you their units for 15 seconds. 15!
- You can dispel forcefields with your colossi.
- An infestor can cast as many as 8 infested terrans to complement your fungals and zerglings.
- No hive tech needed.
- Scouting is almost pointless now.
- Fungal catches phoenixes.
- Fungal attacks and reveals cloaked units.
- Unlike banelings, you get to keep your infestors after a battle.
- Infestors can move while burrowed (and they are faster than burrowed roaches).
- A fungaled colossi cannot be micro'd away.
- Two fungals or one fungal and one terran to kill an observer. (goes well with 13)
- If you decide to sac your hive/lair, all you need to do before it dies is rebuild an infestor pit somewhere else on the map. Now you are fully teched up again.
- Learning how to win ZvP now is just learning how to most effectively use the zergling and the infestor.
- You have plenty of zerglings at all times for harassment, scouting, blocking nexuses.
- Zerglings typically require little or no micro to be effective.
- Zerglings have the shortest build-times.
New! - Void Rays cannot build up a charge vs Zerglings. (credit: theMarkovian)
- Zerglings can quickly reinforce an army; they get there before the battle ends. (credit: Yoshi Kirishima)
Disadvantages
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- The early game is different and possibly tougher than current standards.
- Zerglings require a lot of surface area to be effective on their own, making chokes and well placed force fields problematic for engagements.
i.e. low surface area rocks
unit blocking an entrance/exit
low surface area cannons - Zerglings are larva heavy. You need extra hatches. Injects are more important than with other current builds.
- Infestors have only 90 hp, no armor, and take longer to build than any other lair tech unit. They’re also more valuable to your army than any other type of unit. Make more than you need.
- New! Infestors off creep are slower than fast roaches, but faster than hydras. Sentries, Zealots, Colossi are slower but Stalkers can chase them down.
Tips for engaging any composition of Protoss units:
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- Do not fall into one-hotkey syndrome. Your Infestors will charge into the Protoss units instead of making use of their superior range 9 spells.
- Use Zerglings to deal and take damage.
- Keep Infestors safe near the back of your lings.
- Use 2-3 fungals to take out their clustered sentries or high-templar.
- Use neural parasite to add colossi to your forces.
- Experts-only: walk your colossi closer towards your army before letting them engage, not only to dispel any forcefields but if you should lose your NP'ing infestors somehow, your fungals will keep the colossi in the open where your lings can attack them.
- Use fungals when their army is clumped and infested terrans when they are not.
- I don't usually do this but I suppose it makes sense: after all their units are dead and only your colossi remain, instead of letting your zerglings finish them off, NP them again and have them attack each other. Do not try this in the battle because the splash damage no longer affects the other protoss units.
I followed your suggestions but I still lost the battle!
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- Did you do your best to flank their units with Speedlings while casting your spells from afar?
- Did the battle end with Infestors not expending all of their energy on spells?
- If they blocked your Zerglings with force fields, did you have to continue the engagement or could you back away and wait for the force fields to disappear(15 seconds)?
But what about High-Templar?
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So far, I haven't had to transition away from Zergling-Infestor, maybe because my opponents are used to rolling zergs using Colossi-centered strategies and have been slow to adapt.
Taking a page from standard BroodWar ZvP, I might transition to a flock of 9 Mutas to one-shot them. (credit:etceteraetcetera)
Which spells do I use?
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- Colossi-centered units: Neural Parasite, Fungal Growth, and Infested Terrans
- High Templar: Fungal Growth and Infested Terrans
- Zealot/Stalker/Sentry: Fungal Growth and Infested Terrans
- Colossi/Void Ray with warpgate units: Neural Parasite, Fungal Growth, and Infested Terrans
- Archons: Infested Terrans (Neural Parasite for laughs)
Replays
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Grandmasters Level
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Under Construction
Masters Level
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My replays
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On April 21 2011 03:37 BlasiuS wrote:
I've watched most of the replays and...wow, you really show the potential of ling/infestor -> ling/bane/infestor/ultra.
Almost every game your opponent has more workers, more bases, bigger army supply, higher army cost, and your macro is generally poor (you regularly have 1k/1k resources banked) and yet you still roflstomp them into the ground with pure ling/infestor. Very impressive. I'd like to see this build done in the hands of a more skilled player.
However your protoss opponents aren't as good as they could be. For one, their FFs are not very good. The only opponent I saw who wasn't afraid of using FF was LeafBlower on shakuras, but even then he wasn't able to actually wall off with FF, he just spammed FF to reduce surface area.
Secondly, you never actually fought against a proper maxed deathball. By 'proper' I mean a maxed army with at least 6-8 sentries, 5-6 colossus, lots of void rays (like 8+) and the rest stalker. This is the scariest deathball protoss can make. In the game on scrap & shakuras, protoss did make a maxed army, but it wasn't a void/colo army. I'm interested to see how well mass infestor performs against a maxed void/colo army.
In my opinion against HT, since you already have lots of zerglings and a baneling nest (and melee/carapace upgrades)you should get drop, and morph enough banelings to kill his HT (probably 10-15). Fungal the HT and drop the banes on them.
In fact, any ZvP strategy that uses banelings should also use baneling drops.
I've watched most of the replays and...wow, you really show the potential of ling/infestor -> ling/bane/infestor/ultra.
Almost every game your opponent has more workers, more bases, bigger army supply, higher army cost, and your macro is generally poor (you regularly have 1k/1k resources banked) and yet you still roflstomp them into the ground with pure ling/infestor. Very impressive. I'd like to see this build done in the hands of a more skilled player.
However your protoss opponents aren't as good as they could be. For one, their FFs are not very good. The only opponent I saw who wasn't afraid of using FF was LeafBlower on shakuras, but even then he wasn't able to actually wall off with FF, he just spammed FF to reduce surface area.
Secondly, you never actually fought against a proper maxed deathball. By 'proper' I mean a maxed army with at least 6-8 sentries, 5-6 colossus, lots of void rays (like 8+) and the rest stalker. This is the scariest deathball protoss can make. In the game on scrap & shakuras, protoss did make a maxed army, but it wasn't a void/colo army. I'm interested to see how well mass infestor performs against a maxed void/colo army.
In my opinion against HT, since you already have lots of zerglings and a baneling nest (and melee/carapace upgrades)you should get drop, and morph enough banelings to kill his HT (probably 10-15). Fungal the HT and drop the banes on them.
In fact, any ZvP strategy that uses banelings should also use baneling drops.
Replays from the video clip
[list]
[*]replay of clip 1 on metalopolis
[*]replay of clip 2 on typhon peaks
[*]replay of clip 3 on tal'darim altar
[*]replay of clip 4 on scrap station
More Replays:
- The protoss in this game had no answers at all for ling-infestor: http://drop.sc/6703
![[image loading]](http://s1.bild.me/bilder/110211/thumb_7476399info_of_vathus.jpg)
- Instant-GG game from the screenshot above: http://drop.sc/6704
- Good Forcefields are not the answer: http://drop.sc/6705 (skip to 14 min mark to see why. eventually i stop playing seriously to see if he can figure out a solution to my approach)
- Winning w/o using NP vs a less than stellar void ray/colossus ball http://drop.sc/6706
- 17 min mark: workers even at 85 a piece. 72-104 army supply. one minute later: 41-40. this despite terrible micro from me http://drop.sc/6707
![[image loading]](http://s1.bild.me/bilder/110211/7476399info_of_vathus.jpg)
Here's some replays of me botching this build:
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http://drop.sc/6701
this game shows what poor decision making, poor macro, an inferior economy, and disasterous micro can look like with this build.
http://drop.sc/6702
fast forward to the 25 min mark to see how i failed at the key moment of the game. had i won this battle i think i could have come back to win.
I would like to add replays of all levels here. Please post replays to the thread for analysis and discussion and we can put up some good examples here. Thanks!
Masters League Highlights
Stuff I'd like to add to the OP
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Map Specific Guide
How many Queens and Hatches do you need?
How many Infestors to reach Diminishing Returns?
Comparing Zergling-Infestor to SK Terran
Featured Streams:
1st to 10-game win streak with Mass Infestors-Speedlings to be featured here.
If you're interested in helping to update the OP, here's a copy of the source
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204113.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204114.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-204116.jpg)
