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[D] Mass Infestors - Dominate ZvP Mid-Game - Page 2

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rollout
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4 Posts
April 19 2011 03:52 GMT
#21
Safely get to lair and infestor tech


Agreed...the getting to this is the serious issue in ZvP

Also it seems to me that the sheer micro and energy requirements are too high...if you are looking to be fungling and neuraling repeatedly, you're gunna need a TON of infestor. Also accounting for any infestors being sniped off means you need even MORE, Where's this gas coming from?
the most normal thing in the world
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10383 Posts
April 19 2011 03:53 GMT
#22
Thanks for sharing, and the youtube video was fun to watch xD must have been rare to get that far into the game with such big and diverse protoss deathballs (the last one was so fun to watch :D).

Anyway, here's another advantage:

Zerglings move super fast so they are very good at reinforcing an army; they get their before the battle ends.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
ShamTao
Profile Joined September 2010
United States419 Posts
April 19 2011 04:09 GMT
#23
On April 19 2011 10:27 nymeria wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2011 10:19 HelloThere wrote:
I can't help but feel like against a decent protoss they will shut this attack down in two ways:

1) Much better forcefields before the lings arrive greatly reducing surface area
2) Focusing down the infestor that has the colossi NPed


1 -- This is more theory before evidence. In my experience, I do not lose to well placed forcefields that do exactly what you say.

2 -- This also is theory before evidence. Another idea that seems to make some sense until you try it in a game.

There's just so much to say about both arguments here that I don't know where to start.

Well here goes anyway.
---1--- Forcefields
You can cancel them with a colossus or an ultralisk.
You don't have to continue the engagement.
They prevent his army from advancing forward.
A completely isolated protoss army means none of their zealots can hit any of your zerglings.
Your zerglings take shots while your infestors can still fungal.
Your 2-3 fungals will kill all of their sentries.

--2-- Targeting A Channeling Infestor
Feedback tickles.
Are they using their entire army to focus down the infestor? just the chargelots? just the stalkers? so all 16 stalkers target your infestor...does that mean 7 shots were wasted on overkill? the range of np is 9. i don't think stalkers match that. Are you using the fungaled void rays w/ less range to chase down each infestor? In my experience, it's just too difficult/costly for them to go after my thiefs.


Just a couple things in response-

It's important to note that ALL colossi really should be hit with NP (assuming they have thermal lance at this point). I keep my colossus in a separate control group than my army so that if one of them is NP'd, I can have them target the infestor, because both abilities have the same range. If all of them are NP'd then the lings and fungals that tie up the stalkers/sentries/zealots and keep the infestors safe for a longer period of time.

I'll try to get some replays to back this, but this is through my experience as a protoss player in masters (not to sound snarky- I'm no pro).
In the game of drones, you win or you die!
drcatellino
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada346 Posts
April 19 2011 04:14 GMT
#24
I was playing a game earlier today where he had the deathball coming to me (6 void rays, 4 colossus, gateway units). I used fungal 8 times on the army: in the end, only void rays and colossus survived and he killed me with these.

Yeah I died, but I realized that fungal can really help you buy time to prepare for the incoming push and kill the annoying sentries.
quote unquote
nymeria
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 05:00:28
April 19 2011 04:21 GMT
#25
On April 19 2011 12:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Thanks for sharing, and the youtube video was fun to watch xD must have been rare to get that far into the game with such big and diverse protoss deathballs (the last one was so fun to watch :D).

Anyway, here's another advantage:

Zerglings move super fast so they are very good at reinforcing an army; they get their before the battle ends.

I just call them protoss balls now. Like the big colorful ones people bring to ballparks.

On April 19 2011 12:52 rollout wrote:
Show nested quote +
Safely get to lair and infestor tech


Agreed...the getting to this is the serious issue in ZvP

Also it seems to me that the sheer micro and energy requirements are too high...if you are looking to be fungling and neuraling repeatedly, you're gunna need a TON of infestor. Also accounting for any infestors being sniped off means you need even MORE, Where's this gas coming from?

Check out my video/replays to see how poor micro still crushes protoss armies. The gas comes from not making anything that requires gas.

On April 19 2011 13:09 ShamTao wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2011 10:27 nymeria wrote:
On April 19 2011 10:19 HelloThere wrote:
I can't help but feel like against a decent protoss they will shut this attack down in two ways:

1) Much better forcefields before the lings arrive greatly reducing surface area
2) Focusing down the infestor that has the colossi NPed


1 -- This is more theory before evidence. In my experience, I do not lose to well placed forcefields that do exactly what you say.

2 -- This also is theory before evidence. Another idea that seems to make some sense until you try it in a game.

There's just so much to say about both arguments here that I don't know where to start.

Well here goes anyway.
---1--- Forcefields
You can cancel them with a colossus or an ultralisk.
You don't have to continue the engagement.
They prevent his army from advancing forward.
A completely isolated protoss army means none of their zealots can hit any of your zerglings.
Your zerglings take shots while your infestors can still fungal.
Your 2-3 fungals will kill all of their sentries.

--2-- Targeting A Channeling Infestor
Feedback tickles.
Are they using their entire army to focus down the infestor? just the chargelots? just the stalkers? so all 16 stalkers target your infestor...does that mean 7 shots were wasted on overkill? the range of np is 9. i don't think stalkers match that. Are you using the fungaled void rays w/ less range to chase down each infestor? In my experience, it's just too difficult/costly for them to go after my thiefs.


Just a couple things in response-

It's important to note that ALL colossi really should be hit with NP (assuming they have thermal lance at this point). I keep my colossus in a separate control group than my army so that if one of them is NP'd, I can have them target the infestor, because both abilities have the same range. If all of them are NP'd then the lings and fungals that tie up the stalkers/sentries/zealots and keep the infestors safe for a longer period of time.

I'll try to get some replays to back this, but this is through my experience as a protoss player in masters (not to sound snarky- I'm no pro).

I'm also no pro and in masters too. lets play sometime. NA server - phrontis.572

On April 19 2011 13:14 drcatellino wrote:
I was playing a game earlier today where he had the deathball coming to me (6 void rays, 4 colossus, gateway units). I used fungal 8 times on the army: in the end, only void rays and colossus survived and he killed me with these.

Yeah I died, but I realized that fungal can really help you buy time to prepare for the incoming push and kill the annoying sentries.

next time try NP on all four colossi, fungal, and throw out tons of terrans. should clean that composition right up.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
April 19 2011 05:09 GMT
#26
Hmmm, sounds pretty interesting. I can't wait to try this out when I play a ZvP.

I have one question:

Do you think that this could work with a lower Infestor count(maybe just only matching the colossi numbers, maybe a little more) and a more Roach heavy composition?

Roaches are better in holding the line and do decent against a Gateway army and with a "meatier" it would be harder for the P to snipe your Channeling infestors?

Anyways, good to see some people not giving into QQ and trying new stuff, hopefully this can help Zergs
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Chinesewonder
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada354 Posts
April 19 2011 05:17 GMT
#27
In the ZvP matchup theres been so much discussion on how to overcome it. I still will always stick by baneling drops because I feel theres just nothing that depletes it faster than baneling drops. Also it opens room up for mineral harass which are really hard to defend as protoss.

This seems viable but also very volatile way to play it. Infestors are so delicate and depending on NP just seems really risky. I also wonder if you've ever faced a complete 200/200 death ball with ~5-6 colossi, 6-7 void rays, and stalker + sentry support. I can watch all your replays because Im on my laptop right now, but the one youtube clip the protoss didnt have much.

I still really prefer baneling drops. Nothing wipes the protoss clean quite like these
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 05:25:48
April 19 2011 05:23 GMT
#28
This strategy kind of works before colossus but I really feel like neural parasite just doesn't cut it for dealing with them. Normally I get great NP's by using cliffs but Colossi see up cliffs. Also colossi are almost always safely in the back, meaning your Infestors can be attacked by the gateway units, and your lings are guaranteed to take damage from the colossi.

All in all, I like going this route but I think you just have to get Ultralisks or Corruptors/Brood lords anyways. Infestors with neural parasite are just not reliable enough, too micro intensive, to fully counter colossi and forcefields. however the rest is true, a straight ling infestor build is great against any non-colossi comp. If you can't get a surround with your lings though (maybe a nasty choke or forcefield donut) you pretty much lose the game.
nymeria
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 06:16:01
April 19 2011 05:38 GMT
#29
On April 19 2011 14:09 windsupernova wrote:
Hmmm, sounds pretty interesting. I can't wait to try this out when I play a ZvP.

I have one question:

Do you think that this could work with a lower Infestor count(maybe just only matching the colossi numbers, maybe a little more) and a more Roach heavy composition?

Roaches are better in holding the line and do decent against a Gateway army and with a "meatier" it would be harder for the P to snipe your Channeling infestors?

Anyways, good to see some people not giving into QQ and trying new stuff, hopefully this can help Zergs

less infestors means less fungals available for protecting your channeling-neural-parasite infestors. i believe idra and others are trying to work out roach-infestor, so im sure they have some hope for that. roaches also crowd up some of the space infestors would like to reach when NP'ing/fungaling/terraning.

I can't bear to watch anymore "standard" ZvP games. They all look old-fangled to me.

On April 19 2011 14:17 Chinesewonder wrote:
In the ZvP matchup theres been so much discussion on how to overcome it. I still will always stick by baneling drops because I feel theres just nothing that depletes it faster than baneling drops. Also it opens room up for mineral harass which are really hard to defend as protoss.

This seems viable but also very volatile way to play it. Infestors are so delicate and depending on NP just seems really risky. I also wonder if you've ever faced a complete 200/200 death ball with ~5-6 colossi, 6-7 void rays, and stalker + sentry support. I can watch all your replays because Im on my laptop right now, but the one youtube clip the protoss didnt have much.

I still really prefer baneling drops. Nothing wipes the protoss clean quite like these

I'll post any replays of those compositions that i can find. To me, 6 colossi + 7 void ray + 200/200 army doesn't scare me in the least. (send your 100+ lings first[flanking would be ideal], fungal if the beach-ball tries to run away, np at least 5 colossi if it doesn't, while keeping as many units in the ball fungaled throughout the battle, cast terrans all around to support and wipe up the mess. if you micro poorly like i do, you probably left 1-2 hurt void rays alive)

I've heard of people succeeding with baneling drops to complement ling-infestor. Seems much harder to me than what I'm trying to do.

On April 19 2011 14:23 darkscream wrote:
This strategy kind of works before colossus but I really feel like neural parasite just doesn't cut it for dealing with them. Normally I get great NP's by using cliffs but Colossi see up cliffs. Also colossi are almost always safely in the back, meaning your Infestors can be attacked by the gateway units, and your lings are guaranteed to take damage from the colossi.

All in all, I like going this route but I think you just have to get Ultralisks or Corruptors/Brood lords anyways. Infestors with neural parasite are just not reliable enough, too micro intensive, to fully counter colossi and forcefields. however the rest is true, a straight ling infestor build is great against any non-colossi comp. If you can't get a surround with your lings though (maybe a nasty choke or forcefield donut) you pretty much lose the game.

everyone worries too much about lings evaporating to colossi but it just hasn't been true for me. send them in first and your infestors will come in safely from behind to NP. unless the protoss runs their colossi away. win-win scenario.
Tumor
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria192 Posts
April 19 2011 06:16 GMT
#30
i tray to play Zergling infestor also gainst T and it dammed works, with good ling upgrade and NP and good agression. keep the Toss at 2 bases and drop and contain. its working wonders XD
PopoChampion
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia91 Posts
April 19 2011 06:18 GMT
#31
Feedback or a competent protoss who can snipe the NPing infestors would be pretty effective against this. Seems like it would be almost a hard counter?
nymeria
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 06:59:23
April 19 2011 06:31 GMT
#32
On April 19 2011 15:18 PopoChampion wrote:
Feedback or a competent protoss who can snipe the NPing infestors would be pretty effective against this. Seems like it would be almost a hard counter?

Feedback only hurts you for whatever energy you have remaining after you neural parasite. Chances are you were close to full health but not close to full energy with the infestor you used to NP. Stalkers & Void Rays cannot snipe NPing infestors with their short range weapons.
jazzbassmatt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States566 Posts
April 19 2011 06:40 GMT
#33
wow that video was really cool looking
DarthXX
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia998 Posts
April 19 2011 06:48 GMT
#34
I have started using Ling Infestor too recently, and I love it. Infestors beat VRs, they beat phoenixes, since ur not spending ur gas on anything else (like corruptor roach hydra) you can get a shitton of infestors who really do roll collosi, since you get heaps of NPs to burn. Also transitions nicely into Ultras later in the game if you need to since you will laready have melee attack upgrades for ur lings, or if u choose to go BLs the broodlings are updraded too.
Carmine
Profile Joined September 2010
United States263 Posts
April 19 2011 06:48 GMT
#35
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.

-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.

-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.

-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.

-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.

-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time.
Terran was created third, with purity of tanks.
Attica
Profile Joined February 2010
United States277 Posts
April 19 2011 06:48 GMT
#36
That video is deceiving. The only time it was 200 vs 200 was the last part and the zerg didn't have ling-infestor. He had lings, banelings, infestors, and ultralisks while the toss had like 5 immortals. I'd like to see how it does vs a real deathball of 5 colossus and 7+ voids with ground support,
theMarkovian
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands183 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 06:54:37
April 19 2011 06:52 GMT
#37
What I have found, trying to go Ling(/Bane)/Infestor is that, to survive midgame pushes, you need Burrow just as you would get Burrow for heavy Roach styles, and Banelings. 6Gate is though, as it always is, but with Burrow you can engage with your Ling/Bane army, he will have to forcefield himself into a wall to not die to the banes, which means you can Burrow your entire army and wait for reinforcements. He can't move due to forcefields (and after forcefields, can only retreat, as there are baneling mines in your natural choke). Once your reinforcements pop, engage again and repeat until the push is dead.

All other one-base pushes and early two-base pushes can be dealt with with Ling/Spine (maybe an emergency Roach Warren), Queens or Burrow/Bane. For Two-base Colossus timings, you will have Fungal and drop.

Banelings are essential in any melee focussed midgame IMO and are nice tech to have if the Protoss decides to go heavy Zealot/Sentry in response to your Lings. If he goes pure Stalker/Colossus(/Void) lategame, just don't make any more Banelings. Also, +2 Banes are awesome when dropped on mineral lines.

Just make sure you have Burrow in time, start mining gas at 5.00-5.30 (if you aren't already) and start Lair at 6.00-6.30 and you'll have Burrow in time for any 6Gate.
Hit me up ingame! ID: Markovian.126; Diamond@EU
nymeria
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-19 07:46:03
April 19 2011 07:44 GMT
#38
On April 19 2011 15:48 DarthXX wrote:
I have started using Ling Infestor too recently, and I love it. Infestors beat VRs, they beat phoenixes, since ur not spending ur gas on anything else (like corruptor roach hydra) you can get a shitton of infestors who really do roll collosi, since you get heaps of NPs to burn. Also transitions nicely into Ultras later in the game if you need to since you will laready have melee attack upgrades for ur lings, or if u choose to go BLs the broodlings are updraded too.

I'm afraid of the upcoming nerfs to zerg because of this. Then I'll have to relearn what roaches were like.

On April 19 2011 15:48 Carmine wrote:
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.

-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.

-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.

-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.

-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.

-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time.

You bring up a lot of good points.

- Roaches cost a lot of supply. A roach/infestor 200/200 army is weaker than a zergling/infestor 200/200 army.

- I see your Ranged Attack Upgrade synergy argument and raise you a Melee Ranged Unit-Combo synergy.

- A fungaled-but-not-NP'd colossi not safely in the middle of a protoss ball will take damage from outer lings while lings underneath it's legs are attacking other ground units. This is huge.

- Roaches tend to get in the way of your infestors while zerglings do not.

On April 19 2011 15:48 Attica wrote:
That video is deceiving. The only time it was 200 vs 200 was the last part and the zerg didn't have ling-infestor. He had lings, banelings, infestors, and ultralisks while the toss had like 5 immortals. I'd like to see how it does vs a real deathball of 5 colossus and 7+ voids with ground support,

I agree that the video right underneath the thread title infers that you'll see battles of 200/200 Zergling-Infestor crushing 200/200 Protoss. I'm still searching through my replays to find examples of just that. I'm working on a new video that only shows battles of Zergling-Infestor vs Protoss.

But since I'm only mid-masters level, what I'd really like to see is what a professional can pull off with this unit-composition.

The colossus/void ray ball is among the easier compositions to defeat with this build.

On April 19 2011 15:52 theMarkovian wrote:
What I have found, trying to go Ling(/Bane)/Infestor is that, to survive midgame pushes, you need Burrow just as you would get Burrow for heavy Roach styles, and Banelings. 6Gate is though, as it always is, but with Burrow you can engage with your Ling/Bane army, he will have to forcefield himself into a wall to not die to the banes, which means you can Burrow your entire army and wait for reinforcements. He can't move due to forcefields (and after forcefields, can only retreat, as there are baneling mines in your natural choke). Once your reinforcements pop, engage again and repeat until the push is dead.

All other one-base pushes and early two-base pushes can be dealt with with Ling/Spine (maybe an emergency Roach Warren), Queens or Burrow/Bane. For Two-base Colossus timings, you will have Fungal and drop.

Banelings are essential in any melee focussed midgame IMO and are nice tech to have if the Protoss decides to go heavy Zealot/Sentry in response to your Lings. If he goes pure Stalker/Colossus(/Void) lategame, just don't make any more Banelings. Also, +2 Banes are awesome when dropped on mineral lines.

Just make sure you have Burrow in time, start mining gas at 5.00-5.30 (if you aren't already) and start Lair at 6.00-6.30 and you'll have Burrow in time for any 6Gate.

I'm hoping that I or someone else can figure out a way to avoid wasting any gas on baneling nest/burrow/pneumatized carapace/ventral sacs and then banelings themselves just to hold off early 2 base attacks.

A good protoss can always run their probes from baneling drops. You can't run from fungal. If he has cannons protecting his probes use lings to take the damage while casting your fungals.

Do me a favor and try transitioning from your baneling opening to only making zergling-infestor afterwards. Post replays here and I'll add them to the OP (or i could make videos of them).
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
April 19 2011 07:52 GMT
#39
On April 19 2011 15:48 Carmine wrote:
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.

-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.

-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.

-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.

-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.

-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time.


I think there's a good reason why the OP doesn't get roaches in this build. Infestors are the cornerstones for this build. If you get roaches, you are using up gas that is critical for getting plenty of infestors as well as researching all the upgrades you need. It would really slow you down.

I didn't see this in the replays I watched, but this seems like it would transition nicely into ultralisks if you have plenty of infestors left over after the first major army clash (although the game is often over at that point anyway).

Question for the OP: I know you talked about this a bit already, but can you talk more about your thoughts on more banelings vs more infestors? There is another thread with a similar strategy that focuses more on banelings than infestors. I feel like infestors are a better choice because they don't compete for melee space with the zerglings and are reusable. On the other hand, I think that banelings can be used very effectively in this build after +2 melee is done, because they can then one-shot probes. However, that requires getting drop tech. Do you think that's feasible with this build? On that note, do you research overlord speed with this build?
Kaniwani
Profile Joined April 2011
United States20 Posts
April 19 2011 08:05 GMT
#40
Not to be a naysayer, but the thing that stood out most to me in your video was a complete lack of competent forcefield use from the Protoss players.

What level are you and what level are the opponents that your steamrolling? They all look pretty bad...
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