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On April 19 2011 19:45 barrykp wrote:It seems like a lot of people are moving away from roach hydra midgames into this sort of stuff. I briefly tried infestor/ling in ZvP without much success but looking at your games it seems clear I didn't have enough infestors. Since then I was trying a pure ling/baneling style while rushing to ultras (I got that idea here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211687) and it works quite nicely. If you check the replays in the thread that I linked you will also see deathballs being crushed, even with a supply advantage (it even worked against void rays :o) I will try more infestors and see how it goes.
Just be sure to not be stingy when it comes to using up their energy. The worst thing you can do is not keep casting fungals & infested terrans during the battle thereby leaving a leftover extremely damaged yet now quite dangerous army to have free reign on your undefended infestors. (burrow!)
On April 19 2011 19:45 Flummie wrote:Here we go, finally zergs are getting creative and adaptive  Good writeup, I expect to get major problems with infestors in the nearby future.. that is; until we protoss players find a way around it again  Nice thread
Thanks! I think a certain famous zerg player's very vocal complaints about the match-up sparked the flame for me. I started thinking about this build while watching my brother's ( Zelniq) ascent up the open brackets at the last MLG. In recent months he lost to  iNSoLeNCE in back to back TSL-open qualifiers and to iNcontroL in the HD World Tournament. I hope he believes in my message and continues to try to figure out how to make it work at the grandmaster level.
Knowing what I know now, I can't barely stand to watch standard ZvPs. I didn't even tune in for Morrow's match in the TSL(seen too much of Morrow's ZvP, I'm afraid. I had to tune in for CrunCher though...I've been a believer since watching his stream following his qualifier open win. I was rooting for CrunCher to overcome the aggressive approach Mondragon was successfully using to punish him for trying to expand to far away bases, and it was a surprise to me when he did.).
At worst, I hope that zerg's incorporate neural parasite into their strategies to counter the strength of colossi. I just don't think they are open-minded enough with the idea of sacrificing lings to all those blazing lazers in order to allow their infestors to do the heavy lifting.
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I have used a similar style vs protoss in my last ~40 or so zvp and am currently ~30-10. Instead of mass infestors I go mass banes with 2-3 infestors and 2-3 ultras per army. Therefore, my final army is roughly 130 lings, 50 banes, 2-3 infestors, 2-3 ultras. It is important to get ov speed, drops, bane speed and spire. This comp obliterates most P ground armies with decent control. Just send in the banes / ultras first (with FG for more effectiveness) then follow up with the lings. (in the meantime drop ~24 lings in main). If he has air left over reinforce with mutas (you will have plenty of resources if you waited for him to max). Against mid game pushes before infestor / ultra mass ling bane works exceptionally well as long as you don't get stupid and press a bad attack (he threw down 12 ff's....screw it, attack!) As far as turtling toss once you are maxed with a strong economy just keep throwing banes / lings at his bases (use drops to spread him out).
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I've watched the first 3 replays now and I have to say:
game1: 2base colossus rush from protoss on short distance and you went pretty much all-in (because you neither had the production nor the income to recover if you would have lost your army)
LOOOOTS of builds (can) counter a 2base colossus rush (muta rush, burrow roach push, hydra drops, hydra/ling push, spinecrawler/hydra push, roach all-in, speedling all-in)
game2: I stopped watching after I've seen the "Protoss build" after expanding: 7gate+robo+stargate
game3: well, I can see this working on Teldarim, but I really have to say, if Protoss would just Forcefield better or didnt let you mindcontrol his colossi you would be in lots of trouble
I do think that this build has some potential against deathballs, but you simply lose to a 5 or 6gate pushes (which hit before infestors are out and you cant hold them with pure speedling/spinecrawler without getting seriously behind), massive air rushes before you can get your infestors out, protoss maxed armies with 6-10 colossi(from what I've seen the Protoss never was close to maxed), templar play (psi storm vs zergling, feedback vs infestor)
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Maybe you should all check
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211407
If this compo/strat really interest you.
Neural parasite work very well against collosi, because they target the zergling first and you have plenty of time to NP all of them.
HT isn't that good. Better than colossi, but without KA, it is very delicate to use.
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On April 19 2011 19:50 Micket wrote:
With this composition, how do you put any pressure on the Protoss? Toss can do Cruncher style mass cannons and every expo will be safe from harass. And the Toss main army is completely safe from any harassment at all. So basically, the ideology of this unit composition is to tell the Toss "I am going to let you get your deathball and perfect composition to try and roflstomp me." I suppose if Zerg can roflstomp the Toss consistently with this then I suppose its fine, so, I would say glhf to that.
Edit: I have also realised that it seems that Neural Parasite is the main killer here. It really makes you think that the Fungal Growth buff was simply a way of Blizzard "get your asses off the couch and think"
Blizzard might be smarter than I originally thought them to be capable of.
On April 19 2011 20:02 theMarkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 19:50 Micket wrote:
With this composition, how do you put any pressure on the Protoss? Toss can do Cruncher style mass cannons and every expo will be safe from harass. And the Toss main army is completely safe from any harassment at all. So basically, the ideology of this unit composition is to tell the Toss "I am going to let you get your deathball and perfect composition to try and roflstomp me." I suppose if Zerg can roflstomp the Toss consistently with this then I suppose its fine, so, I would say glhf to that.
This is exactly what the OP is suggesting, that Infestors in a critical amount with upgraded Lings would kill any deathball. If that is true, and you can get to that stage of the game reliably, drops/nydus/harass becomes an afterthought, a way to come even further ahead and/or to outplay your opponent. Three things need to be figured out: 1) Does mass Infestor really beat/trade with any deathball? Is there a way for protoss to micro his deathball/parts of his ball to beat this? AKA, is this a true Zerg deathball? 2) How do we get to the mass Infestor stage without dying to 1/2 base gateway pressure, early colossus timings, etc. etc. AKA, how to survive the early/midgame. Protoss buy time with Sentry/FF to get their ball up, what does Zerg do? 3) If 1) is true and 2) is solved, what are problematic responses from Protoss to this. AKA, what is problematic for Zerg?
BUMP!
On April 19 2011 20:09 Warrice wrote:
the problem is, vs good protoss you cant rely on neural parasite vs colossi, NP range is 9 and colossi range is 9 and that simple doesnt work, they get killed off before they are all NP'd. the high level zergs wouldv done this already. you can see some mess around with it here and there but you still need corrupters.
You zerglings are sacrificed to get close enough with your infestors to NP all their colossi. It is a huge blunder to walk your infestors in first.
I can't be the first SC2 player in the world to commit this heavily to this style, could I? I know the game isn't popular in S.K. yet, for various reasons, but at least the ex-bw-turned-sc2-pro's have the creativity and gumption to experiment with such an obvious unit combo (lings only cost minerals, infestors cost a lot of gas)...right?
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Edit: I have also realised that it seems that Neural Parasite is the main killer here. It really makes you think that the Fungal Growth buff was simply a way of Blizzard "get your asses off the couch and think"
But it makes no sense to reduce FG time and increase its damage for this purpose. The fungal is there not just to kill enemy units but to snare them so they can't get to your infestors. If anything, the infestor change and armored damage buff just made us zergs realize infestors are usable in ZvP as well.
Back to OP: I love this strategy, have been trying to work infestors into my ZvP builds forver, I guess I just wasn't committing to them enough because from the replays I watched they're definitely viable. However I feel they're much more important to hold off the mini-deathball coming from a 6-gate, or thermal lance timing than the ultimate deathball of voids/colossii and assorted gateway units.
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I think this build is viable, but it would be cool to see whether infestor/ling with maybe 2-3 ultras can actually do well against a maxed toss deathball with upgrades. Maybe you could make another video of just unit tester or something to see what happens?
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Fungals only last 4 seconds now and due very minimal damage. Hydras would in my opinion would be more effecient against that army as soon as the colussuses are shot down by corruptors or neutral parasited by 1/2 infestors.
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how to you deal with a protoss that goes for more air than usual?
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On April 19 2011 21:08 Olsson wrote:
Fungals only last 4 seconds now and due very minimal damage. Hydras would in my opinion would be more effecient against that army as soon as the colussuses are shot down by corruptors or neutral parasited by 1/2 infestors.
The problem is that with only 1-2 infestors you don't have the ability to both fungal and do 1-2 neurals on his colossii. I don't see why you would make anything other than lings (but perhaps cut some infestors in favor of ling upgrades). Besides, hydras are not really viable for counter-attacking, in case you do get his army down and feel you could finish the game right there and then with a counter.
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On April 19 2011 21:08 Olsson wrote:
Fungals only last 4 seconds now and due very minimal damage. Hydras would in my opinion would be more effecient against that army as soon as the colussuses are shot down by corruptors or neutral parasited by 1/2 infestors.
Well right now all pros going roach/hydra/corruptor loose badly.
The mass ling and infestor works best.
I've been promoting this strategy for almost a month now on teamliquid chat and stuff and I'm glad people like Spanishiva and the OP are promoting it more.
Its just so good against protoss and even Terran, of course sometimes you need to mix it up, add some roaches or hydras, but in 8 out of 10 situations ling and infestor work.
And defending to 6 gate push is hard to defend as zerg even with roach and hydras and I've find it that 4 spines with mass lings and 5-6 queens and you can defend until infestor comes out and then you instantly win, there is no way protoss can recover after he looses the push after that 6 gate.
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I've been working on a roach infestor ZvP, protoss who respond with immortals when they see the mass roach just die to NP on the immortals, I'm having a bit more trouble with smart protoss who go colossi and target the infestors first from behind the stalkers.
I never tried with lings instead of roaches though, I'll give this a try.
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I love ling bling infestor style ZvP, I don't know about ling infestor without blings..
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After running into trouble using my upgrade-centric ZvP build versus 6 gates, I've started experimenting with infestors. Since fungal hits loads of clumped up sentries and kills them in 2 hits, and since its the only option that outranges the forcefield casting range before broodlords.
I've had reasonable success against these 6 gate pushes, but I found that missing a fungal just made me lose games. Then I came to a revelation. If I cut out the energy-upgrade, I could have another infestor out before the push, and have 3 infestors that can fungal rather than 2 infestors that spawn with enough energy using the same amount of gas. Now that I had one more fungal to my disposal, I could make a bit more mistakes in my fungal placement and still snipe the sentries. But oftentimes my standing army was still too small and I had too much minerals in the bank that I couldn't spend.
After further testing, I built an extra macro-hatchery in my base. This gives me enough larva to pump out insanity amounts of zerglings, enough to completely swarm the protoss 6gate push while fungalling the sentries.
Even if I scout a stargate, this hatchery will allow me to get so much production that I can just get entire armies of zerglings ready to be dropped into the main, which will be relatively defenseless due to the money spent on stargate units.
However, in the lategame I find that just zerglings and infestors aren't the greatest combination. Rather, I focus on getting baneling drops and roaches, and use my leftover infestors from the midgame to pin the protoss in place while dropping their ball and attacking the leftovers with my roaches, reinforcing with whatever unit the protoss army is weak against ( either mass zerglings or mass roaches, sometimes mass mutalisks ). Just infestors and zerglings are too fragile in this match up because HT's will ruin your day ( even though HT's are hardly ever in the toss death ball composition until lategame ). And I really do not like neural parasite in this match up due to the range of toss units and blink.
Thats my input about infestor ling. Great in the midgame, diminishing in the lategame.
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There is no 100% win build in my eyes. You will always have to differentiate between the use of lings or roaches to pair up with infestors in mid game. Some protoss pressure builds simply require roaches to defend it, especially when the toss makes no mistakes in moving his stalkers.
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Relying on neural parasite is just so... gimmicky. It may work in ladder games when your opponent has never played against it before, but if this strategy ever became popular Protoss players would quickly learn how to slap it down. And your YouTube video doesn't do you any favours - telling everyone you've invented a miraculous anti-deathball strat and then showing you beating exactly 0 deathballs isn't particularly convincing. Basically...
- Neural parasite takes time to hit. I've no real experience with playing Protoss, but I distinctly remember one TvZ game I played in which I went for a thor deathball and my opponent countered with mass infestor. I simply went 1a into him and every infestor either died the instant the parasite landed, thus freeing the thor, or died before the parasite even landed. Collosi are longer ranged and do even more damage, especially in large numbers. Yes, you can try to shield with lings, but if the Protoss actually targets the infestors rather than just letting them autoattack you will die.
- Even if they do survive the collosus fire, your strategy relies on hitting every single collosus with neural parasite. In the first battle in the YouTube video, you NPed about half the collosus and won thanks to the damage from the stolen collosi. During the entire 15 second duration there were three collosus within range of your NPing infestors, all of which were conveniently forming a line. If your opponent had just double clicked his collosus and then ordered them to attack the middle infestor your entire infestor army would have been bzarped instantly and you would have lost.
- If you do hit every single collosus with neurals, you then rely on the Protoss player being unable to deal with them with anything else. You are therefore relying on catching every single blink stalker with fungals. If the Protoss spreads his stalkers before the fight, just like Terran spreads their marines, that simply won't happen. Your fungals and NPs pop, then all the mobile stalkers blink into your infestors and kill them, freeing the collosi.
- Your anti-HT play relies on spending all your infestor energy instantly to become feedback-proof. Unfortunately storms are really really good against infestors, especially when they've just used neural parasite and are unable to move. Storms also have enough range to hit the infestors even if you do fungal the entire Protoss army. If the storms land at around the same time as your fungals, every infestor will die immediately after the second fungals land. The moment the collosi are freed forcefields will once more work and your lings will melt.
- Infestors can be sniped. Blink stalkers, DTs, void rays, phoenix and collosi can all dart in and pick off infestors before the battle, rendering your army useless. HTs can run out slightly in front of the Protoss army to feedback infestors before the fight begins.
- You can be harassed to death with void rays. With nothing that can actually attack air you rely on infestors, which are horrendously inefficient unless they can hit multiple voids at once. If your opponent just sends one void ray at a time at your infestors you'll either drain all your energy in seconds or simply lose the infestors.
This style can work against the 1a deathball, but against slight amounts of micro it will fail. There are just way to many ways for the Protoss player to beat it. Neural parasites, just like seeker missiles, are crazy expensive, clunky and generally bad if your opponent knows how to react.
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To people saying that you can cast forcefields BEFORE lings get there to minimize surface area, and therefore make this less effective, that's where you back out. If the forcefields are cast just before engagement, you can usually retreat while only sacrificing a few lings. I often do this on purpose to bait them into wasting energy, I'm not really sure if its effective but I make it a point to snipe sentries early game anyway.
I'm only high diamond so I don't know if higher levels of play have better answers to that little technique. Most players at my level don't seem to. Diamond is mainly a cheese fest these days anyway.
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Does fungal grow damage stack?
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I feel this is exactly right place to ask this question about ling infestor lategame.
Are you able to cast the fungals in shift queue and whats ur setup? Trying not to make gallup but I'd like to know how much better comp i need for using infestors in late game. 1-2fps wont cut.
Myself:
radeon hd 4670
AMD phenom x3
3gb ram
-good temperatures.
-settings on low, resolution on 1280 x 1024 (i don't think i can play on lower reso after getting used to these + the mouse sensitivity would fuck up hardcore)
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EPT
