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On April 19 2011 16:52 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 15:48 Carmine wrote:
I don't have any evidence but i think that roach-infestor would be a better unit composition. There are several reasons.
-Roaches cost a little gas. This gives you something to spend gas on other than just infestors/upgrades. This is important because of saturation reasons.
-Roaches can burrow-move similar to the infestor. This gives you more incentive/rewards for researching burrow.
-Roaches and infested terrans both share the same attack upgrade. A synergy you wont enjoy with zerglings.
-Roaches have a ranged attack. This would be more useful against fungaled zealots. Also, less stalkers would be able to attack your army at a time.
-Fungal growth and Neural parasiting Colossi are both going to give you a lot of DPS vs the protoss army, so I think the tankier roaches would compliment this better than the zergling (with high dps, low health.)
I'm not saying you shouldn't get some Zerglings, but i think a very roach heavy army would compliment the infestors more. Also ofc making Zerglings when remaxing could be a good idea because of the fast build time. I think there's a good reason why the OP doesn't get roaches in this build. Infestors are the cornerstones for this build. If you get roaches, you are using up gas that is critical for getting plenty of infestors as well as researching all the upgrades you need. It would really slow you down. I didn't see this in the replays I watched, but this seems like it would transition nicely into ultralisks if you have plenty of infestors left over after the first major army clash (although the game is often over at that point anyway). Question for the OP: I know you talked about this a bit already, but can you talk more about your thoughts on more banelings vs more infestors? There is another thread with a similar strategy that focuses more on banelings than infestors. I feel like infestors are a better choice because they don't compete for melee space with the zerglings and are reusable. On the other hand, I think that banelings can be used very effectively in this build after +2 melee is done, because they can then one-shot probes. However, that requires getting drop tech. Do you think that's feasible with this build? On that note, do you research overlord speed with this build?
I haven't had much experience using banelings vs Protoss. I really like not having to decide on how many banelings to make.
That's a good point about not competing for melee space with zerglings. Knowing me, my lings in front will have to die before the speedbanes can roll in ... oh wait ... nevermind ... he just blocked them with forcefields.
It makes me sad to see that my overlords w/ banes are too slow to catch up to the fleeing probes. A fungal drop seems more effective. Though I suppose if the opponent knew you had baneling tech you could fake a drop to force some probe evacuations.
I sometimes get overlord speed, I sometimes don't. In general it seems like the right thing to do, despite not needing the scouting info as much anymore. It's nice for scouting/escaping from anything that flies, as well as dropping creep on potential protoss expos (double it up with a burrowed zergling). I've had a lot of opponents wait for pylon then cannon to clear overlord/zergling. (since they didn't make or they lost their observers).
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this may work agasinst colossi but would fail quite hard against any sort of ht comp against a player with any sort of micro. storm would rape all the lings you can throw and feedback would prevent any np. the protoss should also have blink (he has ht after all) so he will be able to easily snipe infestors should they get nps off with a few stalkers. you also lack anti air so the protoss would be able to nearly always see your infestors with obs, if you chose to fungle them then you would have less energy for battles.
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On April 19 2011 17:05 Kaniwani wrote:
Not to be a naysayer, but the thing that stood out most to me in your video was a complete lack of competent forcefield use from the Protoss players.
What level are you and what level are the opponents that your steamrolling? They all look pretty bad...
Naysay away my friend. I'm working on another video with more clips of different kinds of battles (including good forcefields).
phrontis.572 (na server)
season 1 masters: 3280 points 244-211 record
season 2 masters: 519 points 92-90 record
http://sc2ranks.com/us/2253969/phrontis
according to sc2gears, in games since i started working on this build where i made at least 25 infestors and researched neural parasite, i am 21-8 versus Protoss.
On April 19 2011 17:10 mR.bONG789 wrote:
this may work agasinst colossi but would fail quite hard against any sort of ht comp against a player with any sort of micro. storm would rape all the lings you can throw and feedback would prevent any np. the protoss should also have blink (he has ht after all) so he will be able to easily snipe infestors should they get nps off with a few stalkers. you also lack anti air so the protoss would be able to nearly always see your infestors with obs, if you chose to fungle them then you would have less energy for battles.
Feedback >> Neural Parasite
Fungal > Feedback
I agree what you say makes some sense in theory. In the real world, things are not quite the way you think they are. Are you a zerg or protoss player who has experienced this in real games? Feel free to post replays, I will update the OP with anything interesting you can find.
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im facing infestors more and more in my experiance blinkers shut this down pretty hard. Blink a small gorup to the infestors and focus fire them heavy zealot army will kill the lings np with collo sentry support. only problem is gracklings with the 20 procent dmg speed upgrade they seem to rip off my small taskforce of blinkers ot fast ^^
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You do realize, that the video and screenshot u posted showcases a Protoss army with 2 colossi, 0 VRs and it's not even close to maxed?
Ling ifestor is cool, it definetly does not crush the Protoss deathball, actually it wont kill a single unit vs a well shaped P deathball with good FFs, what infestor ling is good for is to stall the P long enough to rush out the hive units/ surround-stun it in order for Baneling drops to work perfectly
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On April 19 2011 17:16 Shadowcloak wrote:
im facing infestors more and more in my experiance blinkers shut this down pretty hard. Blink a small gorup to the infestors and focus fire them heavy zealot army will kill the lings np with collo sentry support. only problem is gracklings with the 20 procent dmg speed upgrade they seem to rip off my small taskforce of blinkers ot fast ^^
Please post your replays vs pure Zergling-Infestor. (wins and losses are fine).
On April 19 2011 17:31 Geo.Rion wrote:
You do realize, that the video and screenshot u posted showcases a Protoss army with 2 colossi, 0 VRs and it's not even close to maxed?
Ling ifestor is cool, it definetly does not crush the Protoss deathball, actually it wont kill a single unit vs a well shaped P deathball with good FFs, what infestor ling is good for is to stall the P long enough to rush out the hive units/ surround-stun it in order for Baneling drops to work perfectly
I do realize this. I'm working on a better video of all the ways this counters everything protoss has thrown at me.
The battle you're referring to in the video is between 20 speedlings, 7 infestors, and 5 queens vs 14 stalkers, 11 sentries, 2 zealots, and 2 colossi. Protoss is at 139/180 and I am at 86/116. He's advancing to finish me off after my failed spine push with close positions on Metalopolis. It is what it is.
Zerglings cannot do any damage to a walled-off deathball. You can dispell the forcefields with your Colossi if you really feel you have to engage in that situation. Typically in my games, there aren't many sentries left after the first pokes out (i fungaled them). Also, I suspect you have no experience of what you're talking about and are just theorizing based on what you think you know (please post replays of zergling-infestor failing to destroy Protoss deathballs). The strength of this vs a ball of Protoss units is obvious to me because even with poor micro I crush these old-fangled balls with ease. This is definitely not just a way to stall for hive units, you can sit on lair tech as long as you like. (as long as you have more of the map than he does).
You're gonna have to find a new sig soon.
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On April 19 2011 17:16 Shadowcloak wrote:
im facing infestors more and more in my experiance blinkers shut this down pretty hard. Blink a small gorup to the infestors and focus fire them heavy zealot army will kill the lings np with collo sentry support. only problem is gracklings with the 20 procent dmg speed upgrade they seem to rip off my small taskforce of blinkers ot fast ^^
Fungal Growth stops Blink. I'd love to see some Sentries get NP'd actually. Counter productive Force Fields ahoy!
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I did this in a game recently and it got stomped ridiculously by zealot-colossus. There was a lot of colossus and a lot of zealot.
I think this works as long as the colossus numbers are kept below like 5-6, and/or there is a large component of stalkers or immortals.
Obviously I know zealot-colossus is vulnerable vs air (but air is not part of this build).
When you get past 6 colossus it start to get close to a point where zerg can get ultralisk, but it still takes time, which leaves zerg vulnerable, and even with ultralisks, zealots do very well against them. As long as zealots are kept around colossi, they can do quite well (protoss would probably want to get some VR and/or immortal for good measure anyway though)
I also found void rays to be quite problematic as well. While the fact that they are air makes for nice fungals, you need to plant down SO MANY (6, or more if shields regenerate) fungals, and the void rays DPS the infestors down SO FAST it's hard to do it without loosing 80% of the infestors. Also when fungaling the VRs, they can oftentimes be spread out (or just have 1-3 in a different position than where teh ground force is, meaning you need to fungal 12-18 times instead of 6.
On April 19 2011 17:31 Geo.Rion wrote:
You do realize, that the video and screenshot u posted showcases a Protoss army with 2 colossi, 0 VRs and it's not even close to maxed?
Ling ifestor is cool, it definetly does not crush the Protoss deathball,
Somewhat/partially agree with this
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On April 19 2011 16:44 nymeria wrote:I'm hoping that I or someone else can figure out a way to avoid wasting any gas on baneling nest/burrow/pneumatized carapace/ventral sacs and then banelings themselves just to hold off early 2 base attacks.
A good protoss can always run their probes from baneling drops. You can't run from fungal. If he has cannons protecting his probes use lings to take the damage while casting your fungals.
Do me a favor and try transitioning from your baneling opening to only making zergling-infestor afterwards. Post replays here and I'll add them to the OP (or i could make videos of them).
I don't see how you can hold off a good timed 6Gate without Burrow Roach or Burrow Banes. I'll do some practice testing tonight, but these are my thoughts: You don't have the critical mass of Infestors (3-4 I think?), which means that he can retreat, reinforce, regen shields a bit and push in again. Good forcefield usage will negate your lings at the 6Gate timing. Yes, you can hold it off with just Ling/Infestor, but that means you will have to pump units earlier (and thus scout it earlier). With Burrow and Banes, you can reactively make units and drone harder, at the expense of somewhat later Infestor.
I don't think the investment into Burrow (100/100) and a Baneling Nest (100/50) is too much for the droning advantage you get. It's 4 Lings and an Infestor. You can skip Banespeed (and maybe drop) until you are certain he is going some kind of heavy Zealot/Sentry deathball.
I don't know much about holding 2 base Colossus timing with Infestors, it might be possible to hold it without drop, which would free up 200/200 in the midgame for Infestors, tech, etc. In that case, drop tech can come later, as a harass tool.
I am only thinking about surviving the early/midgame, because I definitely agree that LOTS of Infestors (with upgraded Lings and later Ultra's/Broodlord) are the key to killing standard Stalker/Colossus/Voidray) deathballs.
As said, I'll experiment some tonight with pure Ling/Infestor. I've been doing Ling/Bane for a while now and just started using Infestors in the midgame (instead of Corruptors), so let's stop theory and see in practice what can and cannot be held off with pure Ling/Fungal. I am not as skilled as you are though 
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This is going way OT people.. stick to the topic which is Z deathball vs P deathball please.
I am sorry but I didnt see a max Z beating max P in any of the replays or videos with ling-infestor.
Nothing to see here, move along people.
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On April 19 2011 18:04 Xapti wrote:I did this in a game recently and it got stomped ridiculously by zealot-colossus. There was a lot of colossus and a lot of zealot. I think this works as long as the colossus numbers are kept below like 5-6, and/or there is a large component of stalkers or immortals. Obviously I know zealot-colossus is vulnerable vs air (but air is not part of this build). When you get past 6 colossus it start to get close to a point where zerg can get ultralisk, but it still takes time, which leaves zerg vulnerable, and even with ultralisks, zealots do very well against them. As long as zealots are kept around colossi, they can do quite well (protoss would probably want to get some VR and/or immortal for good measure anyway though) I also found void rays to be quite problematic as well. While the fact that they are air makes for nice fungals, you need to plant down SO MANY (6, or more if shields regenerate) fungals, and the void rays DPS the infestors down SO FAST it's hard to do it without loosing 80% of the infestors. Also when fungaling the VRs, they can oftentimes be spread out (or just have 1-3 in a different position than where teh ground force is, meaning you need to fungal 12-18 times instead of 6. Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 17:31 Geo.Rion wrote:
You do realize, that the video and screenshot u posted showcases a Protoss army with 2 colossi, 0 VRs and it's not even close to maxed?
Ling ifestor is cool, it definetly does not crush the Protoss deathball, Somewhat/partially agree with this
Hi Xapti.
Could you send me the replay of the game you're talking about?
With only colossi and zealots, he has nothing to target your NP'ing infestors. There are no forcefields. You will melt his fungaled zealots as fast as he melted your zerglings. And if he does commit to that many colossi, I suppose you could build a spire if you doubt me. I think professional zerg players would be happy to transition away if they scouted someone going purely zealot/colossus. You could make 4 overseers(overseers cost no food) per robotics facility and permanently goop them rendering them useless.
Void Rays have a range of 6. Fungal Growth is range 9. You're in no danger. Complement your Fungals with Infested Terrans (range 9 as well) and the void rays melt. Come on man, I expected more from you. Don't tell me in your 31 ladder games this season that you've really been letdown by mid-game Zergling-Infestor vs Protoss.
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infestors get really ugly to deal with as Protoss on ladder
good infestor usage with neural parasite is actually really strong against deathballs
the thing is if you keep colossus in the back
Infestors can easily Neuralparasite Immortals and wreak havoc (outside of the range of Colossus)
if the army is fungaled P can't do shit to deal with it. beside Colossus nothing has enough range to even reach the Infestors that are protected by other units.
if you move your colossus forward, you still have the risk of also getting your Colossus NP.
this strategy works really well if Infestor count > Immortal+Colossus count
(obviously it won't work if infestor count is low.)
If you get colossus as P you pray that they deal their damage before they die, or you will be left with alot of useless Stalkers against a way superior mix.
Fungal prevents any Stalker micro, which is the only advantage Stalkers have to make them at least not suck for costs.
People say P Deathball is easy mode, but that is only true if Zerg let P get their Deathball uncontested.
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On April 19 2011 18:17 theMarkovian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 16:44 nymeria wrote:I'm hoping that I or someone else can figure out a way to avoid wasting any gas on baneling nest/burrow/pneumatized carapace/ventral sacs and then banelings themselves just to hold off early 2 base attacks.
A good protoss can always run their probes from baneling drops. You can't run from fungal. If he has cannons protecting his probes use lings to take the damage while casting your fungals.
Do me a favor and try transitioning from your baneling opening to only making zergling-infestor afterwards. Post replays here and I'll add them to the OP (or i could make videos of them). I don't see how you can hold off a good timed 6Gate without Burrow Roach or Burrow Banes. I'll do some practice testing tonight, but these are my thoughts: You don't have the critical mass of Infestors (3-4 I think?), which means that he can retreat, reinforce, regen shields a bit and push in again. Good forcefield usage will negate your lings at the 6Gate timing. Yes, you can hold it off with just Ling/Infestor, but that means you will have to pump units earlier (and thus scout it earlier). With Burrow and Banes, you can reactively make units and drone harder, at the expense of somewhat later Infestor. I don't think the investment into Burrow (100/100) and a Baneling Nest (100/50) is too much for the droning advantage you get. It's 4 Lings and an Infestor. You can skip Banespeed (and maybe drop) until you are certain he is going some kind of heavy Zealot/Sentry deathball. I don't know much about holding 2 base Colossus timing with Infestors, it might be possible to hold it without drop, which would free up 200/200 in the midgame for Infestors, tech, etc. In that case, drop tech can come later, as a harass tool. I am only thinking about surviving the early/midgame, because I definitely agree that LOTS of Infestors (with upgraded Lings and later Ultra's/Broodlord) are the key to killing standard Stalker/Colossus/Voidray) deathballs. As said, I'll experiment some tonight with pure Ling/Infestor. I've been doing Ling/Bane for a while now and just started using Infestors in the midgame (instead of Corruptors), so let's stop theory and see in practice what can and cannot be held off with pure Ling/Fungal. I am not as skilled as you are though
I haven't figured out a solid method to survive the early game Protoss attacks. Sometimes speedling counters work. Sometimes i rely on queens and spines. Speedlings and Queens alone seem to not be sufficient (transfusing a queen just isn't the same as transfusing a spine). There is a synergy between having many spines and many queens early in the game. You can use the spines to help you secure the middle and your queens are used to help generate larva for your larva-hungry zerglings from either your many macro hatches (if you're bad at injects like me) or from your many expansion hatches.
When someone maps out a solid opening for this build I will add it to the OP.
On April 19 2011 18:45 Knuppe wrote:
This is going way OT people.. stick to the topic which is Z deathball vs P deathball please.
I am sorry but I didnt see a max Z beating max P in any of the replays or videos with ling-infestor.
Nothing to see here, move along people.
Everyone should read this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145494¤tpage=712#14228
Because the SC2 Strategy Section has lots of misinformation and misguided ideas that turn many masters and grandmasters level player away from reading thread here, I chose to go ahead and post a sampling of what Zergling-Infestor looks like vs Protoss even in the hands of someone with bad micro. I want this thread to be seen and heard all the way to the IM Team house so that hopefully my boy IMLosira can take away oGsMC's $85,700. Let any and all challengers step up and prove me wrong.
On April 19 2011 19:06 freetgy wrote:
infestors get really ugly to deal with as Protoss on ladder
good infestor usage with neural parasite is actually really strong against deathballs
the thing is if you keep colossus in the back
Infestors can easily Neuralparasite Immortals and wreak havoc (outside of the range of Colossus)
if the army is fungaled P can't do shit to deal with it. beside Colossus nothing has enough range to even reach the Infestors that are protected by other units.
if you move your colossus forward, you still have the risk of also getting your Colossus NP.
this strategy works really well if Infestor count > Immortal+Colossus count
(obviously it won't work if infestor count is low.)
If you get colossus as P you pray that they deal their damage before they die, or you will be left with alot of useless Stalkers against a way superior mix.
Fungal prevents any Stalker micro, which is the only advantage Stalkers have to make them at least not suck for costs.
People say P Deathball is easy mode, but that is only true if P doesn't let Zerg get their Deathball uncontested.
Fixed.
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It seems like a lot of people are moving away from roach hydra midgames into this sort of stuff. I briefly tried infestor/ling in ZvP without much success but looking at your games it seems clear I didn't have enough infestors.
Since then I was trying a pure ling/baneling style while rushing to ultras (I got that idea here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211687) and it works quite nicely. If you check the replays in the thread that I linked you will also see deathballs being crushed, even with a supply advantage (it even worked against void rays :o)
I will try more infestors and see how it goes.
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Here we go, finally zergs are getting creative and adaptive  Good writeup, I expect to get major problems with infestors in the nearby future.. that is; until we protoss players find a way around it again 
Nice thread
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With this composition, how do you put any pressure on the Protoss? Toss can do Cruncher style mass cannons and every expo will be safe from harass. And the Toss main army is completely safe from any harassment at all. So basically, the ideology of this unit composition is to tell the Toss "I am going to let you get your deathball and perfect composition to try and roflstomp me." I suppose if Zerg can roflstomp the Toss consistently with this then I suppose its fine, so, I would say glhf to that.
Edit: I have also realised that it seems that Neural Parasite is the main killer here. It really makes you think that the Fungal Growth buff was simply a way of Blizzard "get your asses off the couch and think"
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On April 19 2011 19:50 Micket wrote:
With this composition, how do you put any pressure on the Protoss? Toss can do Cruncher style mass cannons and every expo will be safe from harass. And the Toss main army is completely safe from any harassment at all. So basically, the ideology of this unit composition is to tell the Toss "I am going to let you get your deathball and perfect composition to try and roflstomp me." I suppose if Zerg can roflstomp the Toss consistently with this then I suppose its fine, so, I would say glhf to that.
This is exactly what the OP is suggesting, that Infestors in a critical amount with upgraded Lings would kill any deathball. If that is true, and you can get to that stage of the game reliably, drops/nydus/harass becomes an afterthought, a way to come even further ahead and/or to outplay your opponent.
Three things need to be figured out:
1) Does mass Infestor really beat/trade with any deathball? Is there a way for protoss to micro his deathball/parts of his ball to beat this? AKA, is this a true Zerg deathball?
2) How do we get to the mass Infestor stage without dying to 1/2 base gateway pressure, early colossus timings, etc. etc. AKA, how to survive the early/midgame. Protoss buy time with Sentry/FF to get their ball up, what does Zerg do?
3) If 1) is true and 2) is solved, what are problematic responses from Protoss to this. AKA, what is problematic for Zerg?
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Just got roflstomped by this as P.... what an amazing strat! Maybe the Zerg complaints will stop now...
EDIT: The banelings didnt work though --> FF
The zerg had more infestors than I had collossi, so target fire on them did only turn the battle even more in his favour, as my stalkers were bitten to death by the lings why they tried to shoot the infestors. I feel that the attack timing is very important, it seems to be very effective when P has 2-3 Collossi.
If you pull the collosi back your army up front will be killed too fast I think.
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the problem is, vs good protoss you cant rely on neural parasite vs colossi, NP range is 9 and colossi range is 9 and that simple doesnt work, they get killed off before they are all NP'd. the high level zergs wouldv done this already. you can see some mess around with it here and there but you still need corrupters.
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EPT
