• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:08
CEST 20:08
KST 03:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202560RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1011 users

Starcraft is big enough for TV to ignore.

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-29 22:43:33
April 12 2011 02:18 GMT
#1
Starcraft is big enough for TV to ignore.
And why we should avoid TV


Note: I have nothing against the author - i have never met him. But i feel it very important that we all be on one educated track when it comes to discussing the possibilities of Starcraft broadcasts in the future. I welcome any response or criticism of what i've writen


Reponse to this article:
http://www.sixjaxgaming.com/wp/scii/2011/04/11/starcraft-is-too-big-for-tv-to-ignore/

These are my personal opinions, not those of Teamliquid.net.
+ Show Spoiler +

The author sure is a...ok i'm done.


I've been following esports and networking with esports organizers, journalists and personalities for about 6 years and the notion of “increased viewers = good on TV” is one that comes has come up often. Without sounding too patronizing, it usually comes from new esports journalists who haven't followed the inner workings of the scene closely or don't know enough about esports history and the companies/people that surround it. Unfortunately for the author, he failed to recognize that esports has been broadcast on television multiple times, receiving millions in investment and failed catastrophically.

Why numbers don't matter (right now).
Starcraft 2 viewership numbers aren't really anything to write home about. CPL events were doing 100k viewers easily in 2007 when there were no services like justin.tv or ustream to help them out. WCG was/still is pulling in those kinds of numbers They ran/load balanced their own broadcasts – i'll have to ask Slasher what the stability of the streams was like. The prizes were bigger. The viewers were bigger. Many organizations embraced CS1.6/Source as their flag for taking esports to the mainstream and they failed. GGL Failed. CGS Fails. CPL Failed. ESWC Failed...should I go on? Starcraft 2 should not be on TV.

1) CGS. This was detailed perfectly by djWheat on Reddit and he does a far better job of explaining the circumstances than I would.

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/gnhdm/starcraft_is_too_big_for_tv_to_ignore_sixjax/ .

I'm only mildly informed on some of the financial/organizational issues that plagued CGS so i'll leave those alone, but the insider stories i've heard truly sound like what happens when “uneducated senior management” put their inevitable - but necessary spin on a product. The #1 reason I hated CGS was because of what it represented – XFL/Slamball meets Gaming. Whenever TV productions get involved there is a strong push to target the most casual of markets by dumming down the experience and adding a lot of flash to draw in casuals. It's a business – you need to be able to prove that the audience is extendable and that there is a strong attach rate for 1st time viewers becoming long time supporters. Some will argue that Husky et co already proved this is possible....but did they really prove an attach rate for viewers ignorant of Starcraft "the game" or an attach rate for viewers who knew what Starcraft was but didn't know it was an E-Sport...this is important, and I can only assume that a massive portion of VOD/Stream fans already knew what Sc was or had played it in their youth. I do not believe that Starcraft Esports Broadcasting is extendable to an audience who has little interest in Starcraft the game.

2) When broadcasting a "new" product, one needs to keep things simple (read: dumbed down) in order to attract a casual base immediately. If you cannot prove potential success within a few broadcasts you are done (see midseason cancelations of every show on network TV ever).

This leaves the existing hardcore fan raged while still the broadcast remains confusing to the casual demo. Why? Because Esports broadcasts on Television have proven one thing, you can target a casual market, or you can pray that your existing hardcore demographic transfer over - you cannot have both. Any marketing or business student will explain to you that this is ultimately doomed to fail or enjoy only marginal success.

Yet again and again, new esports figure heads attempt to target both. With a game like Starcraft, "simple" isn't a key word. How do you simplify one of the most complex games on the market...by cutting things down. While one could argue that CS wasn't “made for broadcast” the way that Starcraft 2 was, it is still overwhelmingly complicated for a new viewer. I can watch poker and UFC with my dad who has no interest in either...understanding GSL by himself? Probably not going to happen. This leaves a niche product that isn't extendable to a new audience.

3) The CGS was very inaccessible by the very nature of it being a subscription on DirectTV – I didn't even consider getting the service until I was comfortable that it was a good product. Like most gamers though, when I realized that most of the flare of “true” CSS/1.6 events was gone I decided it was doomed to fail – it shut down about 6 months later (i'm sure it was predicted by many others).


Why Starcraft should never be on Western Television.

In order for a TV game show to be viable, it needs a few things which Starcraft cannot provide without being shit.

1. Easy to edit while maintaining the narrative. Unlike a broadcasted strategy game like poker where the scene (television scene, not community) is compact (1 hand, 1 hand, commercial, 1 hand, 2 hands, commercial etc.) and easily interchangeable, Starcraft does not allow quick or easy editing decisions. Without former Starcraft players on hand in an editing both, you would be left with a chopped down product – missed building placements, missed timings, and a raging viewer base. This isn't really a negotiable point. Games would HAVE to be edited and cut to allows for a commercial in the middle. A TV station simply cant run a 45 minute game without commercials in North America and still remain profitable.

2. Able to target core demographic and casuals simultaneously.
The very strategic nature of Starcraft alienates a lot of viewers. I think we have made huge strides opening the door over the past few years via the work of Day[9], Husky, the SC2GG guys – but it's really not enough. As a viewer, I need to be able to be flicking by a station and within 2-3 minutes understand exactly whats going on even if i've never played. Again though, i believe there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that "hardcore" games are not able to target hardcore and casual TV audiences simultaneously.

3. Social Networking
While Teamliquid can't take full credit for any one production's success, the nature of having a very central hub where one can come and find live events quickly is a huge benefit to live broadcasts. Social media hubs like facebook/twitter and sites like reddit also contibute heavily, but I find it ignorant to suggest that this would be scalable when applied to a television. The social platform which impassions viewers on Teamliquid simply doesn't exist on television. The Starcraft Esports scene is very niche despite it's size – do not mistake size for accessibility. These new viewers came to esports via the promise of Starcraft 2's launch, they found Esports along the way.


Predicition Time “Where We Goin” - Bobby Kelly



Within the next 5 years or so I expect Justin.TV, Ustream and others to fully embrace IPTV-like features. With a tailored dashboard for featured high quality productions, I think IPTV is the only acceptable course for Starcraft and esports. The matches themselves are only about 50% percent of what keeps Starcraft games interesting – the rest is the social experience of knowing you are communicating with thousands of others live and being able to comment on the action at hand. Imagine having a 1080p stream on your tv and a few of your friends webcam streams all watching simultaneously. With easy access to live chat, and whatever medium our forum evolves to.

Want to poll your audience to increase interactivity? “Who is going to win Idra/Huk” then selecting your score/vote live on screen and having immediate feedback. Why do threads like MLG hit over 900 pages in comments and over 1.5 million viewers – because of the story, because of the attachment fans feel to players and the knowledge that thousands of others are sharing in that experience - live.

Additionally this opens a number of marketing opportunities during events for sponsor plugs (ability to show a direct clickable link to sponsor site/ordering page that would open in a satellite window on the TV to order/promote/whatever). I think it will become increasingly easy to generate revenue through IPTV and for broadcasts to promote sponsors with more interactivity and ease (Although, the cost of IPTV broadcast may remain high for some years). The entry barrier for amateur productions has dropped drastically over the last 2 years, and within the next 5 will drop further while allowing for scaled up production values.

The most important thing for Starcraft esports has nothing to do with the game itself. It is 100% about the narrative of events and players, and this NEEDs to be the focus for content and event producers starting right now if players hope to grow the scene. I found the videos that CSN, AskJoshy and others produced for MLG Dallas to be excellent – I hope they continue to advance it, and increase their production values through editing, lower thirds etc.


Side

This promotion has nothing to do with the actual fight – it's about the narrative/story of the fighters. This kind of emotion and narrative is what event producers should be striving to create online and on IPTV in the future.

So back to the Article
There is a reason MLG is no longer on ESPN. I don't know what it is, but MLG is no longer on ESPN. Would Starcraft 2 help? It's doubtful considering the size of the casual Halo base compared to Starcraft2. Our community is a global one - in Canada i didn't even have access to MLG's broadcasts on TV.

The author ultimately draws many flawed comparisons between existing Television and live internet streams. He comments on the viewership of Starcraft events/leagues versus the viewers on Fox Soccer channel and similar "niche" markets...This argument is flawed because Soccer is the most popular sport on earth and has a potential viewer base of hundreds of millions (World Cup?). The author has compared the very minimum that a Soccer channel can hit to the very maximum that Starcraft 2 broadcasts are hitting. He has compared one of the strongest television sports broadcasts to an industry that has only experienced television failure....

Good luck in your Venture Capitalist meeting.

----
Shameless self promotion
@Kennigit on Twitter
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
April 12 2011 02:19 GMT
#2
Kennigit you are the man. I was wondering what was going on with this.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
Flameling
Profile Joined July 2010
United States413 Posts
April 12 2011 02:22 GMT
#3
I like how you approach the article, very in depth, and very good read.
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
April 12 2011 02:23 GMT
#4
Couldn't agree more.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
LoLAdriankat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4307 Posts
April 12 2011 02:25 GMT
#5
Pretty sure the 14-25 age group doesn't even care about TV anymore anyway. That age group watches their stuff on Hulu, Youtube, etc.
DazZle.
Profile Joined February 2011
United States56 Posts
April 12 2011 02:25 GMT
#6
The picture you paint is grim Kennigit, but I have to agree with you.
chobopeon
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States7342 Posts
April 12 2011 02:25 GMT
#7
a good response. i feel bad that dickward has been the target of some insults today but, mostly, his article has been the catalyst for several intelligent, in depth responses from people with a great deal more knowledge than most in the esports community. im glad he wrote it and im glad for the back and forth that has come out of it.
:O
darthcaesar
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States475 Posts
April 12 2011 02:26 GMT
#8
sick rant ^_^

Agreed. Kennigit hwaiting
He is wisest who knows he does not know. | (┛OДO)┛彡┻━┻
Biigfoot
Profile Joined October 2010
United States159 Posts
April 12 2011 02:26 GMT
#9
Well put sir Kennigit. I agree completely. What Starcraft 2 needs is multiple avenues of exposure some for casuals/introductory stuff and stuff for the hardcore players/watchers. You can never appease both at once, it's a losing battle if you try.
GagnarTheUnruly
Profile Joined July 2010
United States655 Posts
April 12 2011 02:27 GMT
#10
Good read and eye opening for ignorant me. It strikes me that conventional television is a bit of a dated medium anyways. Not that it's going anywhere any time in the next few years but it's not exactly cutting edge. Starcraft broadcasts are already where conventional TV is heading.
undeinpirat
Profile Joined February 2010
United States17 Posts
April 12 2011 02:28 GMT
#11
Agree with you 100% Kennigit.
cozzE
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia357 Posts
April 12 2011 02:28 GMT
#12
Couldn't agree more, babysteps needs to be taken with mainstream media. IPTV is probably the smartest way to go about broadcasting sc2 on a large scale.

After the failures that were CGS, I really don't want sc2 going down that path.
Budzlight
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States578 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-12 02:32:47
April 12 2011 02:30 GMT
#13
Starcraft 2 viewership numbers aren't really anything to write home about. CPL events were doing 100k viewers easily in 2007 when there were no services like justin.tv or ustream to help them out. WCG was/still is pulling in those kinds of numbers


Sweet 100k viewers for tournaments with +4 bands of games...... TSL was half that with only what? Thats right just Starcraft 2. This is to big to ignore more like it. Not to sure if i can agree but when it comes to the age group its hard to decide.
I was the 5% that voted for thorzain in the TSL for round 1
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
April 12 2011 02:31 GMT
#14
On April 12 2011 11:25 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Pretty sure the 14-25 age group doesn't even care about TV anymore anyway. That age group watches their stuff on Hulu, Youtube, etc.

This is true too. I don't (and most of my friends) don't watch TV in primetime anymore - we use hulu and other stuff etc. I'm in hs fyi.

Anyway, I think the general trend is that TV will eventually be on the internet. I also don't think sc2 being on tv would be a step up from the computer - I would probs only watch sc2 on the tv once or twice for the novelty before moving back to my computer.
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
April 12 2011 02:31 GMT
#15
I agree with Kennigit because he will ban me if i dont.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
GwSC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1997 Posts
April 12 2011 02:35 GMT
#16
On April 12 2011 11:25 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Pretty sure the 14-25 age group doesn't even care about TV anymore anyway. That age group watches their stuff on Hulu, Youtube, etc.


This so much. I feel like we are really shifting away from TV.
oGsTheStD
Profile Joined February 2011
United States32 Posts
April 12 2011 02:35 GMT
#17
I agree completely, I don't get why so many people are let down by this though. Starcraft will always be in that niche market, and frankly I don't mind at all
mpupu
Profile Joined June 2010
Argentina183 Posts
April 12 2011 02:35 GMT
#18
A TV station simply cant run a 45 minute game without commercials in North America and still remain profitable.


I know you said North America, but soccer matches are 45 minutes each half and typically broadcasted without commercial breaks until half-time. The way around it is doing the exact same thing justin.tv or ustream do: show ads at the bottom while the game is still running.
Zeri
Profile Joined March 2010
United States773 Posts
April 12 2011 02:36 GMT
#19
Great response! thanks kennigit
You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.
echO [W]
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1495 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-12 02:38:06
April 12 2011 02:36 GMT
#20
I do have a question for you Kennegit, assuming the viewership is there, do you see the possibility of an MBC Game, or Ongamenet type channel coming to cable television in the west?

There are plenty of very niche cable channels that manage to stay alive like the Military Channel or G4 (though G4 isn't hard core video game coverage) or the Biography channel, or Investigation Discovery. I do admit that I have no idea the inner workings, profit/loss etc etc of these channels.

Or is it simply a cultural divide between something Korea has thats unique to Korea, and immensely difficult to replicate outside of Korea? (the fact that StarCraft is essentially Korea's past time and that you need to reach past-time status to sustain traditional television type programming)
"Or a school bus over a bunch of kids" - Tasteless --- “A man's errors are his portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
1 2 3 4 5 16 17 18 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
14:00
King of the Hill #219
davetesta22
Liquipedia
Esports World Cup
11:00
2025 - Final Day
Serral vs ClassicLIVE!
EWC_Arena32492
ComeBackTV 5048
TaKeTV 1275
JimRising 957
Hui .788
3DClanTV 699
Fuzer 454
EnkiAlexander 338
Rex266
CranKy Ducklings168
Reynor149
SpeCial96
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena32492
JimRising 957
Hui .788
Fuzer 454
Rex 266
UpATreeSC 152
Reynor 149
SpeCial 96
JuggernautJason14
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 2977
Bisu 2657
Mini 913
Larva 800
Soma 392
actioN 339
EffOrt 257
Rush 128
TY 102
JYJ77
[ Show more ]
Shine 68
sorry 32
Aegong 26
yabsab 24
sas.Sziky 22
zelot 19
Terrorterran 14
JulyZerg 11
Sacsri 9
NaDa 6
soO 5
Dota 2
420jenkins706
League of Legends
Trikslyr61
Counter-Strike
fl0m3752
sgares489
oskar211
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu51
Other Games
gofns8880
FrodaN2318
tarik_tv2078
Beastyqt748
KnowMe191
crisheroes108
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV961
League of Legends
• Nemesis4220
Other Games
• imaqtpie757
• Shiphtur350
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
15h 52m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
19h 52m
CSO Cup
21h 52m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
23h 52m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 14h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 19h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 23h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.