• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:59
CEST 21:59
KST 04:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War565.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202621Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
Repalyzer - replay analysis app for StarCraft: Rem Fantasy returning? TL Sidebar missing streams Rollback Netcode in Brood War BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8735 users

Thoughts on the MSL final [spoilers]

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 08:09:39
February 20 2011 07:36 GMT
#1
As most predicted, (Z)Hydra defeated (Z)great without much difficulty. Ignore the result for a moment and let's look at the games.

Games 3 and 4 tell us little. great's burrow build in game 3 made little sense, and of course he lost as soon as Hydra overcame his confusion and tried attacking. Game 4 showed us that 12-hatch-at-nat still loses to 9-pool-speed, as expected.

So the real question here is whether great's remarkable build in game 1 can be successfully repeated. Certainly he tried to do it again in game 2 and failed. In game 2, Hydra's strong defense shut down great's ling aggression, and great's failure to morph his natural spore colony led to many drones dying to a mere two mutalisks. Once Hydra's third hatchery completed, great was left in the awkward position of being behind on the ground, in the air, and economically, and had no choice but to concede. Hydra showed in this game that his mechanical fundamentals are superior to great's, but that does not necessarily invalidate the build great was attempting, as the game could have gone much differently if great had morphed his natural spore colony and had retreated his lings instead of wasting them on a futile attack.

The main doubt about great's performance in game 1 is that with a 12 hatch vs 12 pool build order advantage, standard ZvZ would still usually result in a win. Maybe all great accomplished was winning later than he should have. Still, great showed us something that we haven't seen before: up against arguably the best ZvZ player in the world, who moreover is expecting hive builds and has certainly practiced against them, a mechanically-weak zerg player can still force the game to hive and win.

great's play in game 1 showed us the most original complete understanding of the ZvZ matchup seen in any game to date. great's extensive preparation showed immediately in his novel overlord scouting pattern and his unusual build order. He showed how to use spore colonies to defend while applying pressure with expansion, zergling, and mutalisk threats. He made use of each tier of the ZvZ tech path: queens to allow mutalisks to roam freely, then devourers to regain air dominance, then defilers and lurkers to allow ground offense. In short, great's build was a textbook for how to force hive ZvZ and what to do once getting there.

great's build worked not because of his execution, but despite it. The early zergling attack was sloppy, the expansion-denial timing too early to snipe a completed hatchery, the mutalisk pressure less well-focused than it could have been, the swarmed-lurker attack ineffective, etc. It would be fascinating to see what this approach could achieve in the hands of a masterful executor like (Z)Jaedong.
NicksonReyes
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Philippines4431 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 10:30:22
February 20 2011 10:05 GMT
#2
All I can say is that ZvZ revolution is not ready yet . I'm not a ZvZ expert but I just thought while watching the finals is that something is wrong or something is missing. He even might had lost in Game 1 if not for the spire snipe because of Hydra's superior micro that may give him a chance to comeback from a BO disadvantage. If sniping tech buildings can be done repeatedly and becomes a part of great's build, then I'll buy it. It needs more time than great had thought.
"Start yo" -FlaSh
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
February 20 2011 10:09 GMT
#3
G1 was a BO advantage for great, which is really the only way i can see any sort of hive tech.
Basically, for hive tech to happen, the person with the BO win has to play passively.
☺
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-20 10:16:37
February 20 2011 10:16 GMT
#4
I am not convinced now TBH, but I will not tell you that its blind path of evolution as well. I remember that many told the same when anti-Zerg Mech became effective (that it's shitty and be resolved soon), and now we know its not an all-in, but just alternative path to play vs Zerg. So i would wait to find out. Right now I'm sceptical.
Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
schaf
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1326 Posts
February 20 2011 10:42 GMT
#5
On February 20 2011 16:36 blueblimp wrote:great's extensive preparation showed immediately in his novel overlord scouting pattern



Can someone explain to me how this pattern is working/what it is supposed to achieve? I can't really figure out how it's better since you need to know your opponent's build in ZvZ (if I'm not mistaken) to prepare for it.
Axiom wins more than it loses. Most viewers don't. - <3 TB
_Quasar_
Profile Joined October 2010
Russian Federation4405 Posts
February 20 2011 15:01 GMT
#6
All I can say that great and ZerO have developed more than a single way to willingly choose the hi-tech way of playing ZvZ, as for now.

And I suppose it's not over yet, they'll both continue to search
For the Swarm!!! Jaedong & Neo_G.Soulkey fan.
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
February 20 2011 16:38 GMT
#7
On February 20 2011 19:42 schaf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2011 16:36 blueblimp wrote:great's extensive preparation showed immediately in his novel overlord scouting pattern



Can someone explain to me how this pattern is working/what it is supposed to achieve? I can't really figure out how it's better since you need to know your opponent's build in ZvZ (if I'm not mistaken) to prepare for it.


I don't have a full analysis yet, but the basic idea is: suppose Hydra starts in the upper left and great starts in the lower left. About half the time, Hydra will send his overlord downwards. So if great sends his overlord upwards and doesn't see Hydra's overlord at the halfway mark, that rules out half the cases where Hydra is in the upper left, so it may be worthwhile to use the overlord for another purpose.

It's not yet clear to me where the overlord was being diverted (since, unluckily for great, every 4-player-map game in the series turned out to be the bad case for his scouting pattern). Possibly it was being sent to look for zerglings mid-map in order to prepare for 9 pool. I wish we could have seen what great prepared for 12-hatch-in-base vs 9-pool-speed.

On February 21 2011 00:01 _Quasar_ wrote:
All I can say that great and ZerO have developed more than a single way to willingly choose the hi-tech way of playing ZvZ, as for now.

And I suppose it's not over yet, they'll both continue to search


Actually I completely disagree with this. Every previous modern high-tech ZvZ we've seen has been reactionary, where one player happened to put up spores due to build order and teched hive behind them. In none of them did either player enter the game with a plan to force hive tech regardless of his opponent's build. Also, hacklebeast's analysis showed that great only won hive tech games when his opponent teched hive first. Forcing hive is not very interesting if it causes you to lose.

The reason I found game 1 exciting is that great planned to go to hive tech before the game started, and despite that being predictable, hydra could not stop it. That's exactly what's needed if hive tech is ever to become standard in ZvZ.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
February 20 2011 16:51 GMT
#8
Games 3 and 4 tell us little. great's burrow build in game 3 made little sense, and of course he lost as soon as Hydra overcame his confusion and tried attacking.

The objective of Great's burrow build was to rush Hydra as soon as he attacked. There was a lot of mind games going on, and it actually looked like it was really going to work. Players normally send one ling to check for a backstab as they move out to attack the enemy. In this case Hydra sent half his lings, and it really looked like it was going to work perfectly. But Hydra smelt something and halfway toward Great's base he retreated. I think Hydra got so worried about a back stab he started checking every location on the map, and when he realised he'd wasted too much time, he just decided to call the attack off because he couldn't figure out where Great's lings were.

If Great had been playing normally and just kind of put his lings in a weird spot, that would have been a huge disadvantage. I don't blame Hydra at all for smelling it out, but I think you make the game out to be less intense than it was. If all you saw was the end battle, sure, Hydra rolled him. But before that it was an intense mind game. Burrow wasn't meant to confuse Hydra. Hydra was meant to attack him immediately and get his main raped while Great defends. It was a clever ploy that I think must have worked against most people he practiced against. Too bad it wasn't rewarded on the big stage.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: Ladder Tournament
04:00
#3 - $100
ZZZero.O128
LiquipediaDiscussion
AI Arena Tournament
02:00
Swiss - Round 5
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Liquid`TLO 291
JuggernautJason114
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 675
Shuttle 513
ZZZero.O 128
Zeus 75
Hyun 42
soO 37
scan(afreeca) 25
Dota 2
qojqva2232
canceldota46
Counter-Strike
fl0m5206
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby3844
Liquid`Hasu639
Other Games
summit1g3760
FrodaN1015
KnowMe307
420jenkins223
ToD196
Pyrionflax194
Livibee173
QueenE60
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick810
StarCraft 2
angryscii 33
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 85
• Hupsaiya 41
• Adnapsc2 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 30
• FirePhoenix5
• niya90s 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Counter-Strike
• C_a_k_e 1803
Other Games
• imaqtpie947
• Shiphtur655
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 1m
Patches Events
19h 1m
BSL Open Qualifier
23h 1m
BSL Open Qualifier
23h 1m
OSC
1d 3h
OSC
1d 16h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.