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I don't pretend to bring the new ultimate perfect build, i just think that it's a totally viable and a interesting way to play TvP differently than it uses to be.
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
#1 diamond here
Since a couple of weeks i'm using an "Almost full air" build in Terran vs Protoss, mainly based on Banshees / Vikings. I got a really good win ratio (~9/10 i think), meaning only a couple of loss which, in fact, has nothing to do with the strategy itself (for example 4 gates proxy + luck/unluck). I'll try here to write down all that I've learnt while practicing the BO so you can use it yourself with a (better) knowledge basis.
Why this build?
As many players/threads did, i've concluded that the Protoss army is basically ruling the ground once it reaches tier 2. It becomes really (really) hard to deal with that while, of course, being also prepared for the classic cheese library: 4 gates push all-in, 1 stargate void + 3 gates / robo all-in, full zealot speed all-in, etc ...
Banshees seemed a nice way to avoid all those problems. But as i tried different BO, i also noticed that Banshees + X units was not really worth it, except of course some kind of Marines, Medivac, Banshees, Raven all-in, but that's not my stuff. It often turned into something like:
6/8 banshees + MMM small ball + 1 raven VS 2 Colossus/immos + P ball = Banshees and stalkers trading, then MMM ball getting raped by the rest of P army. Beyong that, the Protoss newbie will just have to press "a" while you'll have to micro stimpack hit&run + banshees cloak + raven drone.
So i decided to work on that air-only build.
The basic scenario
1) Getting one starport Banshees/cloak upgrade AND engeneering bay right after it: your banshees are going to be your main unit, they are really strong against stalkers but even more while invisible, so you don't want observer to fly over your base that easily.
2) Harass with your first banshees, don't lose them, repair them, while expanding and adding another starport
3) Getting more and more banshees to harass harder: pick some stalkers, pylon, tech building, etc ... forcing the Protoss to turtle and build canons
4) Adding a third starport (or not) to produce vikings and start the observer sniping
5) Invest the extra minerals so you have 3 rax (2 reactors + 1 labs) going for marines upgraded + medivacs
6) Front attack with marines + banshees, or multi-tasking harass with Marines drops + Banshees/vik ball, you should be able to take your third in the meantime
Dealing with the 4gates all-in
As you go straight Banshee and few Marines, you're really weak in early game and you need to know what to be aware of while dealing with the dangerous though easy to spot (timing scan) 4 gates all-in; to survive:
- Build 1 or 2 helions,
- Build a second bunker and split your marines inside both
- Keep 3/4 scvs near your wall/bunkers to repair if you feel the hard push is coming
- Get the 1st banshee asap, delay Cloak upgrade and/or the second Banshee if needed for marines/helion/bunker/repair
- Once stabilized, you can head with 1 banshee to Protoss base, the shorter time your base is Bansheeless the better
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/4/1111497731.jpg)
Turrets and Banshees are good friends
As you don't have any ground army in early (and very mid) game you rely on the Turrets / Cloaked banshees combo. Spam turrets as much as you can: build 2 on your ramp after your first Starport, then 3-4 on your natural while expanding. Here's the sequence to micro this combo well:
1) Stalkers start to attack your turrets, if obs is stupidly lost then just attack with Banshees, if not, go next step
2) Banshees fly over turrets and shoot stalkers, be ready to backoff
3) Stalkers attack banshees
4) Repair/rebuild turrets with scvs and hit and run with Banshees
5) Stalkers can't follow cloaked banshees if turrets are still standing so Stalkers have to backoff
6) Go step 1
Building turrets near enemy base is of course allowed, so you can deal with obs and air units while still harassing.
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/4/1111497693.JPG)
Observer sniping
Once you have 6-8 banshees STOP MULE CALLS to save energy for scans and add 2 vikings to start harassing with observer sniping support, later you should always have 4 vikings (not less not more) to get the work done. Be careful with vikings, don't lose them, and if you can't manage to take observers down, fallback and try another harass raid from some other side of the Protoss base/expos: you have mobility, use it.
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/5/1111497774.JPG)
Care for the suicide counter
The frustration that comes with the impossibility to attack those cloaked (or not) Banshees raping your base/units often precede a suicide attack also known as: "I won't die without losing all those useless units". That's why spamming bunkers and keeping 2 banshees in his base is important, especially when you see a lot of Zealots and Immortals.
Don't hesitate to bring back your fleet to defend if you think you won't be able to hold, try to kill a Nexus or the Robotic before you leave. But while coming back home verify (scan) that he's not waiting you on the road to get your uncloaked Banshees, this kind of stuff may cost you the game.
Watch for the archives
If the Protoss is bunkering while teching to mass Stalkers / Storm, you really need to get ghost EMP or your Banshees / Marines combo is going to get obliterated. Work on your micro to manage your army the right way, Marines and Banshees are going to stak as they quite have the same attack range, this get dangerous, here are my hotkeys for groups:
1 - Marines/Medivacs, "t" for stimpack
2 - Ghosts, "e" for EMP
3 - Banshees, "c" for cloak
4 - Orbitals, "c" for scans
To conclude
This strategy has nothing to do with the common 2 Barracks + Banshees, or Fast Expand to Banshees, or MMM ball + Banshees + Ravens. Here you are going for fast Banshees, a lots of Banshees, almost only Banshees. In fact i'm doing the opposite! While most Terrans go for MM first then add some Banshees, i go for Banshees first, then, later, add some Marines Medivac to finish the job / care for Phoenixes and Voids.
So you must understand that it is not a mid-game strategy, i don't build any X units to support (at least in early game) air so I have more Banshees, and faster. As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the strongest on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus?
Just fly and deal with Stalkers, your Marines will take care of the rest.
Replays:
3 Gates + 1 Stargate all-in (trash talk inside)
4 Gates + 1 Stargate all-in
4 Gates push
Stalkers only
Stalkers only(2)
Stalkers, Phoenix, Voids, Canons
Stalkers, Feedback
Hope you'll like it. Feel free to discuss and ask about.
Thank you for reading
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I've encountered this as zerg and it is extremely annoying, even more so because overseers are not cloaked. I've tried mass muta which worked okay, have to look out if they start adding ravens with hsm. Hydra infestor will take care of it though.
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The most annoying loss I've ever had was to a cloak banshee/raven/viking mix. 58 minutes, i had 5 bases and he had 2. unfortunately it wasn't until after the game I realize HTs were the way to beat it. he just kept sniping my observers and I was too hesitant to make mass cannons.
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If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
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On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling.
Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time.
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I'm glad people are starting to catch on that air play is how you deal with Protoss late game :D obs sniping is soooooo strong at this stage in the metagame that it's not even fair. I personally like to use Thors to kill obs. They have the same range as vikings, provide excellent ground support, don't waste Starport production cycles and force immortals, which makes your banshees all the more powerful.
You should invest in 1-2 Ravens for your push, rather than scanning. The PDD + mobile detection has great synergy with your army, especially with your Thors to snipe.
Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action?
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I've come up against this a couple of times and the way i dealt with it was to build mass Phoenix, I'm talking like 2 or 3 stargates churning them out constantly. This is far easier and faster than teching to HTs which takes forever. Also a robo pumping obs as well. The phoenix are also amazingly good for harrassment, and discouraging drops. But yer this a super annoying composition and can really wreak havoc because its just so mobile, especially if you have medivacs transporting all ur marines around as well. Can just strike anywhere.
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On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
If the protoss builds to many cannons, I think you can tech switch to siege tank/mmm faster than he can do anything about it, you should still have your banshee and vikings which will destroy any collosus play. I think the main threat is HT's or even the protoss going heavy air + stalkers. All that being said, it is theory craft at the moment and I will have to see what happens (as we all should) :D
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On February 05 2011 00:01 Synystyr wrote:
Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action?
Check replays, but most of the time here's how he game ends:
- I go with 6 banshees 2 vikings and snipe obs, kill his units or robotic facility, then he leaves
- I go with the same combo and he tries to counter to force me retreat, i kill 1 nexus before coming back, then hold his push easily while losing a bunker or a turret, then go back to his base again with even more banshees and he leaves
- He holds with phoenix or templar or stalkers/canons and he pushs with Banshees + Marines Medivacs, multi-tasking Banshees harass backdoor and Marines stimpack front, then it's over.
That kind of stuff.
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On February 04 2011 23:58 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build. I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling. Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time.
Yea, i was thinking to myself that it was a dumb question 
Is a transition into BC possible or Banshee are really better?
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I played against this kind of build sometimes these days. The first game i was surprised and didn't went a good build against it, the second i just built 2 stargate and produced phoenixes, lots of phoenixes, i raped it quite easily. However, i was really better than the other guy (i'm currently around 2600 pts master EU). And produce a raven (not fast though), anyway !
Tbh this build isn't bad, but i really disagree with your opinion on Banshees + X, i feel it way stronger.
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On February 05 2011 00:14 phisku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 23:58 parn wrote:On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build. I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling. Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time. Yea, i was thinking to myself that it was a dumb question Is a transition into BC possible or Banshee are really better?
Battlecruisers are heavy cost, slow to build, slow to move and highly vulnerable to stalkers/templar. I wouldn't recommand this, or for fun if you have a decent advantage.
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On February 05 2011 00:18 BaLoO- wrote:
I played against this kind of build sometimes these days. The first game i was surprised and didn't went a good build against it, the second i just built 2 stargate and produced phoenixes, lots of phoenixes, i raped it quite easily. However, i was really better than the other guy (i'm currently around 2600 pts master EU). And produce a raven (not fast though), anyway !
Tbh this build isn't bad, but i really disagree with your opinion on Banshees + X, i feel it way stronger.
You must understand that my build is not a mid-game strategy. And I don't build X units so I have more Banshees and faster.
As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the stronger on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus?
Just fly and deal with Stalkers.
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it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
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On February 05 2011 00:40 Damador wrote:
it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
Please read before posting, thanks.
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So what do you do in case of opposing stargates?
Phoenix beat banshees and can trade cost for cost with vikings. Plus if he has a few phoenix in hovering around two obs, your vikings won't auto-kill the observer but instead target the phoenix. That means end of harassment and your ground army cannot compete against the toss.
There is a reason why one of the most dangerous toss endgame composition is colossus pheonix.
I have played with this composition alot (especially on scrap station where you can take the island and then hold on to air superiority) but after the initial surprise, this strategy loses to blink stalker (robo makes 3-5 observer and that is enough for toss to engage), templar tech and star gates.
Ghosts isn't the answer to templar tech, because your main strength is the mobility of your units, where the ghost is fairly slow and doesn't fly, so each obs that isn't part of the main army will spot him and cause him getting killed.
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On February 05 2011 00:40 Damador wrote:
it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
Phoenix are not cost efficient against BCs.
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I almost exclusively go Hellion drop into 2 port banshee against toss. (anything else is just about suicide midgame)
Then bring back my drop ship, fill it with 8 marines, build 2 vikings and a raven, and about 4-5 banshees and drop his main. Once im there I drop PDD and snipe the OBS. 9/10 its game over. If they manage to hold you off (usually by fast expo and a lot of units). Then you can harass both minerals lines and force cannons.
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On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
So what do you do in case of opposing stargates?
More vikings? I have 2/3 starports and also Marines coming. I can also build turrets here and there on the map, near your base, so i can retreat on those and stop your Phoenixes/Void/Obs counter harass.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Phoenix beat banshees and can trade cost for cost with vikings. Plus if he has a few phoenix in hovering around two obs, your vikings won't auto-kill the observer but instead target the phoenix. That means end of harassment and your ground army cannot compete against the toss.
Who said i wanted to trade? And I can't focus obs? Easy with the range attack of Viks seriously.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
I have played with this composition alot (especially on scrap station where you can take the island and then hold on to air superiority) but after the initial surprise, this strategy loses to blink stalker (robo makes 3-5 observer and that is enough for toss to engage), templar tech and star gates.
Lots of people did it to me, but unfortunately too late, as i've wrote again and again, it's not a mid-game strategy, it's an early game strategy. If you try to engage I got a really strong defense with bunkers + turrets + banshees + vikings. And of course if you produce mass obs, you don't have Immortals or Colossus, not so many i mean, so you're weaker on ground.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Ghosts isn't the answer to templar tech, because your main strength is the mobility of your units, where the ghost is fairly slow and doesn't fly, so each obs that isn't part of the main army will spot him and cause him getting killed.
Be serious, don't say that EMP is not good against Templars ... and again, you don't understand how I play it (maybe i'm not that clear). How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking.
I don't say this is unbeatable, i say that it's totally viable, then you have to play it, master it, and win the game.
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I remember TLO demolishing white-ra on jungle basin with this build.
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EPT
