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I just finished playing a game on ladder. I am currently a high-rated Platinum player and my opponent was a 2100 Diamond Terran player.
I went for a 13 hatch expansion, to which he replied by placing two bunkers at the base of my ramp. He already had a marine or two out so I couldn't pull drones to kill the bunkers without flat out sacrificing them.
I tried to go for Roaches to bust it, but I noticed he took all of his Marines out as soon as my Expo was killed, I killed the Bunkers, then decided "Hey, fuck it, I'm so far behind I'll just try to Nydus him and end it, since his units are at his [saturated] expansion." He scans my Nydus and I can't place it. I decide to go for the Expo and hope he doesn't push, but he did and I lost.
I re-watched the replay with a friend of mine and neither of us are sure what I could have done to stop this. Maybe if I had gone for Banelings instead of Roaches then just continued to bust through his wall?
I would appreciate it if someone could watch this replay and give me some advice as to what counters this in future situations.
Much thanks.
Replay Here.
Note: I did use the search function and I couldn't find any posts with the Terran player actually blocking the Zerg player's ramp.
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Ok, I did watch the replay.
First of all, I wouldn't have noticed your a platinum if you didn't tell me, and you need really decent against a 2100 Diamond. Great job on that! The reason I wouldn't suggest a Nydus Worm to win is because he bunker walled you, not cannon. A cannon wall completely sets the Protoss back, as you're forced to get a Forge, and dedicate over 400 minerals (with probe mining time, extra cannons, etc.). A bunker rush doesn't really alter the Terran tech, as it just slows his economy down, which isn't a big problem since he killed your expansion that finished anyways. Good job on not overreacting, I do have to point that out. I would have suggested a counter attack, and the overlord positioning could have been better. After a few minutes, move your overlord to his natural cliff, you can see everything being built, and everything that's going in and out. After you killed the bunker, you powered up drones. Don't do this, as from what I've seen you already had enough drones to power off of 1 base. You weren't planning to expo at that time (nydus worm), so the drones were just wasted larva. If you macroed those untouched larva a few seconds earlier, got out 1 more roach and a few more lings, you could have easily counterattacked him before the 3 bunkers finished. (Which you would have seen the 3 bunkers put down desperately if you put an overlord there). So yeah, there isn't really anything build/unit comp wise you could have done, mainly you have to apply pressure back, especially if he expands. Nydus worm probably won't work, as it usually is only effective against cannon wall offs.
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On December 28 2010 16:31 TheUberMango wrote:
Ok, I did watch the replay.
First of all, I wouldn't have noticed your a platinum if you didn't tell me, and you need really decent against a 2100 Diamond. Great job on that! The reason I wouldn't suggest a Nydus Worm to win is because he bunker walled you, not cannon. A cannon wall completely sets the Protoss back, as you're forced to get a Forge, and dedicate over 400 minerals (with probe mining time, extra cannons, etc.). A bunker rush doesn't really alter the Terran tech, as it just slows his economy down, which isn't a big problem since he killed your expansion that finished anyways. Good job on not overreacting, I do have to point that out. I would have suggested a counter attack, and the overlord positioning could have been better. After a few minutes, move your overlord to his natural cliff, you can see everything being built, and everything that's going in and out. After you killed the bunker, you powered up drones. Don't do this, as from what I've seen you already had enough drones to power off of 1 base. You weren't planning to expo at that time (nydus worm), so the drones were just wasted larva. If you macroed those untouched larva a few seconds earlier, got out 1 more roach and a few more lings, you could have easily counterattacked him before the 3 bunkers finished. (Which you would have seen the 3 bunkers put down desperately if you put an overlord there). So yeah, there isn't really anything build/unit comp wise you could have done, mainly you have to apply pressure back, especially if he expands. Nydus worm probably won't work, as it usually is only effective against cannon wall offs.
Thank you for the help, and for the compliment. I mainly only play against Diamonds in Practice and on Ladder, so I've just been waiting to get promoted haha.
On topic, I have never been put in the position to where my entire ramp is walled off (against Terran), so I really had no idea how to react. I just kinda freestyled it and hoped I would win, and hoping just isn't good enough...
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I did not whatch the replay.
I can tell you strait out - if you get bunker walled after a fast expo you have as good as lost. Unless your opponent is bad.
What you want to do is such:
watch Day[9] Daily #226
it will tell you all you need to know about fast expanding VS terran.
From myself I will add that an attempt to wall your ramp must be blocked untill your other drones arrive as it is not covered in the daily.
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The best way to stop it is patrol a drone at the bottem of the ramp until you have a zergling or queen to prevent the bunkers being dropped. The window for this rush is pretty small where they only have around 30 seconds where it can be effective, if you can hold them off for that long you are fine, however keep in mind the terran wont be that far behind you since this build sacrifices little on their part
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you wont be able to block dual bunker wall unless you dedicate at least 2-3 drones on patrol every single match, pool early etc, overpreparing for something you'll get only in 1 match out of 10.
best response imo is to cancel the one being built and go for 2nd inbase hatch, 1-2 spine to be safe and take the bunkers down with no casualties, queen on main hatch, queen on 2nd, oversaturate mineral line and go from there into your standard play.
funky stuff like nydus, drops, expensive busts (as in you wont be able to support busts so early both on your wall and on his) one base muta will get you nowhere.
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Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit.
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On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit.
I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time.
Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect.
Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever.
No need to troll.
What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately.
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I'm pretty sure he meant pool, he said it like 5 times. I think he's just a 6 pool troll, after all, it's the only safe build. 
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Sorry but this is extremely simple:
@3:45 you have 9 drones ... You should have a lot more. No real point in watching further than that imho.
You need to check out a replay of someone doing a proper fast expand build, because you are messing it up and forgetting to drone up, get queens, move drones to expansion before it goes up, patrol a drone at ramp to expansion. It should be really easy to go:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Poolhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Pool
Practice that build against the computer 10 times, and check your larva - make sure you spend them on drones or not at once.
First queen pops at main, use energy for creep (towards natural).
Around 15 supply, move 1 drone to your ramp, and have it patrol the ramp.
When your expansion pops, make one spine crawler instantly.
One overlord should go towards the ledge near terran base so you can see incoming units - and it's not a bad idea to have one drone at the xel naga tower either if you want to be super safe.
Either way I think it's as simply as you forget to make drones and get an okayish economy.
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13 Hatch on close positions really screwed you that game. It's pretty difficult to see this coming unless you leave your overlords in vulnerable positions. (3 scvs camping your base is kind of a give away)
When you see the bunker going down you need to make a snap decision: Can you kill the bunkers or not? In your position you couldn't so the best course of action would have been to cancel the hatch. The terran did a really good job of waiting until it was almost finished though. Making the decision pretty much requires you to play against this build 20 to 30 times until you're comfortable against it.
This kind of displays why terran all-ins are so strong. Zerg doesnt have the early forces necessary to defend with, which is why many zerg players recommend pool first in every match-up. If you insist on hatch first, patrol the drone as stated by a number of posters above. Its the only reliable way to keep yourself from being blocked in.
As for your actual gameplay, the biggest flaw was you didnt scout the terran expansion until it was completely defended. Also, getting a lair and stockpiling gas with no tech path to dump it into.
I doubt you could have really stopped his expo, but it would have been a good idea to try. Allowing T to 2-base vs 1-base zerg is a losing strategy, as I'm sure you already know.
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One technique that you can use to help delay the bunkers from going up is to patrol a drone below your ramp the ramp block should be harder to do after the next patch so I wouldn't let it bug you too much.
The things I will note that probably would of helped out signifcantly vs this is your first queen was super delayed. You saw the bunkers on the minimap long before it came out. And given when the bunkers went down the queen should have already been there I think you could of potentially saved your hatch by building 2 spines and a creep tumor so you could start heading towards the ramp.
Secondly, it is important to know what to scout with your starting drone. A basic terran build is usually rax ~12 gas ~13 or for a tech build ~12 gas ~13 rax. It did not look like your scouting drone ever saw the geyser at the bottom of the t's base. Seeing no gas means the terrans are limited to building the following things: bunkers turrets marines scvs and OC (obviously rax/ebays/CC too) No gas is a sure sign of some type of early aggression or a FE.
Putting your first overlord nearby their natural should give you heads up if they choose the FE route and making a tumor with your first queen should help you out should they choose the marine/scv allin or bunker wall off route.
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On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately.
2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet)
As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production.
My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range.
If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade.
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There are 2 openings that dont suck, the math has been done, 10 extractor trick 11 overpool and 14-16 hatch, 11 overpool is very safe allows you to punish a greedy opener with early lings and is very strong economically, 14-15 hatch ideal economically but have trouble with significant cheeses IE pylon/bunker block, marine SCV all in, proxy 2 gate proxy 2 rax 6 pool etc.
11 overpool has a faster pool, more larva and better income than 14-16 pool and therefore those builds are completely useless, there is no reason ever to use them as far as i can think, other than a a brief timing window around 16 food where the 15 pool has a higher income than 11 overpool
13 hatch larva caps while pooling minerals for the hatch the loss of the 2 larva which happens in a 13 hatch build while pooling minerals makes it significantly weaker than 14 pool which never pools larva and 16 pool, which never fails to instantly spend its larva
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On December 29 2010 10:15 Evoshadow wrote:
There are 2 openings that dont suck, the math has been done, 10 extractor trick 11 overpool and 14-16 hatch, 11 overpool is very safe allows you to punish a greedy opener with early lings and is very strong economically, 14-15 hatch ideal economically but have trouble with significant cheeses IE pylon/bunker block, marine SCV all in, proxy 2 gate proxy 2 rax 6 pool etc.
11 overpool has a faster pool, more larva and better income than 14-16 pool and therefore those builds are completely useless, there is no reason ever to use them as far as i can think, other than a a brief timing window around 16 food where the 15 pool has a higher income than 11 overpool
13 hatch larva caps while pooling minerals for the hatch the loss of the 2 larva which happens in a 13 hatch build while pooling minerals makes it significantly weaker than 14 pool which never pools larva and 16 pool, which never fails to instantly spend its larva
As far as i can "tell" according to the math you lose .5 larva and gain a faster creepspread and 13 hatch is best eco, i mean just going on this thread
TL THREAD
I prefer 13 hatch becuase it means that as soon as the hatch pops i have the right creepspread for a front spine if needed
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On December 29 2010 07:40 aebriol wrote:
@3:45 you have 9 drones ... You should have a lot more. No real point in watching further than that imho.
x2...
At some point you are at 10/18 supply with almost 400 minerals and 3 larva saved up and nothing in production (?!)
Also I think it's the first time I see 13 hatch 12 pool, which is kind of a weird BO.
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On fast rush distance maps especially, I favor the 11 pool build. I have ran some numbers through the BO optimizer, and it is possible to get 5 bannes and 11 zerglings (without speed) in the first 4:30 seconds of play, using a variation of the 11 pool build. Do you want to do this in every zvt? Of course not, but you want to try and stack build orders so that you can transition into rush or rush defence if the need arises. As for roaches vs bannes as counters to bunker rushes, I would go bannes every day. Bannelings are useful in every single zvt machup, and they also do 80 damage to structures and have splash damage. Really hard to beat that. From an economics standpoint, you pay 175 gas for 5 bannes and a banneling nest, and you need only three larva plus whatever you feel is appropriate to dedicate to clean up after the bust.5 roaches will not take out 3 bunkers, costs 2 more larva, a little less gas, and after you break through roaches are not very strong in a zvt machtup unless they go heavy mech. Even then, I think zerglings are a better counter to tanks and thors then roaches.
A 13 hatch build is extremely risky, not a bad BO, just don't think I would have tried it on lost temp. Maybe scrap station or another map with long rush distances.
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On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade.
I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post.
As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled.
However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy.
IMO
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So after reading all of the replies, obviously the best thing is to just not let him contain me with bunkers. So if I do go for a Fast Expand build I should be patrolling one drone at the base of my ramp to prevent it, also place my first ovie on the cliff near his natural to see if he's expanded and what he has for defense.
If he does manage to get the bunkers up, I should just oversaturate my main, spread creep towards my natural, get a few spines, then once the bunkers are down double expand (while getting some attacking units, of course).
Just making sure I understand.
Thanks :p
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EPT
