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You should never, unless racks come before depots or he overcommits several scv to the strategy, lose an expand to a bunker rush. I do agree that a drone below ramp is okay, but definitely scout on 9 to attempt to find his main - understanding the timing needed in rush positions on a map will allow you to understand well when the hatchery should be placed or if you scout a very offensive build like the aforementioned racks prior to supply, the decision to stay in your main for early game may prevail.
Never let the scv complete the building, if you do you are likely to lose the hatchery or suffer detrimental loss. Preventatively, you should send 3 drones for the first scv and 2 for every other he brings to assist in the push. His economy will be slowed and it is likely you will not suffer for having done so as long as your micro holds up. You can simply use your drones to mine your expand, having larva injected your main you should be able to produce a few drones to compensate for the loss at your main.
As soon as your hatchery completes, you need to build one sunken unless you've managed to prevent the building. This will allow the bunker to be busted without wasting valuable mobile map control like zlings - ensure you've appropriately ranged the building.
As other posters have said, droning may not be the best answer to a prevented expo. An evolution chamber and +1 on roaches or even zlings may be an acceptable answer if you think he extends his economy too far and you push him. Additionally, with map control after he sustains acceptable losses, you may be able to expand.
I do not really see the merits of a double expo as this is inviting a mid game push to end your eco boom unless you have good map control, this seems an idealized suggestion that is only viable against incredibly passive players.
May check rep later
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On December 29 2010 12:00 zakmaa wrote:
So after reading all of the replies, obviously the best thing is to just not let him contain me with bunkers. So if I do go for a Fast Expand build I should be patrolling one drone at the base of my ramp to prevent it, also place my first ovie on the cliff near his natural to see if he's expanded and what he has for defense.
If he does manage to get the bunkers up, I should just oversaturate my main, spread creep towards my natural, get a few spines, then once the bunkers are down double expand (while getting some attacking units, of course).
Just making sure I understand.
Thanks :p
Double expand if able to. You will likely be very behind in eco assuming the terran you are facing is any good. If they are good they will have been on their natural for a decent amount of time and be building up a large army, you need to catch up and in order to do this you have to either all in before his advantage fully kicks in or you need to regain your base advantage quickly. A good thing to do is to drop an in base hatch as well because spending a fully saturated bases income off of 1 hatch is difficult. You must keep up scouting as well, be sure of what your opponent is doing. Sac ovies and get a good scout with your overseer when you lair tech.
On December 29 2010 12:29 Aitrus wrote:
You should never, unless racks come before depots or he overcommits several scv to the strategy, lose an expand to a bunker rush. I do agree that a drone below ramp is okay, but definitely scout on 9 to attempt to find his main - understanding the timing needed in rush positions on a map will allow you to understand well when the hatchery should be placed or if you scout a very offensive build like the aforementioned racks prior to supply, the decision to stay in your main for early game may prevail.
Never let the scv complete the building, if you do you are likely to lose the hatchery or suffer detrimental loss. Preventatively, you should send 3 drones for the first scv and 2 for every other he brings to assist in the push. His economy will be slowed and it is likely you will not suffer for having done so as long as your micro holds up. You can simply use your drones to mine your expand, having larva injected your main you should be able to produce a few drones to compensate for the loss at your main.
As soon as your hatchery completes, you need to build one sunken unless you've managed to prevent the building. This will allow the bunker to be busted without wasting valuable mobile map control like zlings - ensure you've appropriately ranged the building.
As other posters have said, droning may not be the best answer to a prevented expo. An evolution chamber and +1 on roaches or even zlings may be an acceptable answer if you think he extends his economy too far and you push him. Additionally, with map control after he sustains acceptable losses, you may be able to expand.
I do not really see the merits of a double expo as this is inviting a mid game push to end your eco boom unless you have good map control, this seems an idealized suggestion that is only viable against incredibly passive players.
May check rep later
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
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Try watch machine's vod on ZvT fe, he explains how to hold it off pretty well.
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I play Terran and I like to use the bunker wall-in. A quick spine crawler or two will stop it cold.
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Don't be greedy and go for 13 hatch. Go for pool + 100 gas for speedling research. And expand at 22 supplies or so.
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I haven't watched the replay, but with a 13 hatch, this should not be really difficult to stop, and you can even go 14 hatch.
If the terran is in close position, transfer some drones (for instance 6 drones) to your nat as soon as the hatch finish. With drones on both sides, it shouldn't be difficult to defend.
I doubt the terran can place 2 bunkers before the drone transfer without cutting scv production, in which case you should be fine just by cancelling the hatch and killing the bunkers with spine crawlers.
A drone paroling at the ramp is the best way to prevent this, but keep in mind that there is no need to react to something that isn't here, don't send a patrolling drone in everygame, only when you see the bunker block coming.
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On December 29 2010 15:40 whomybuddy wrote:
Don't be greedy and go for 13 hatch. Go for pool + 100 gas for speedling research. And expand at 22 supplies or so.
This isn't helpful to his thread, he is asking how to defend FE vs bunker rushes, speedling expand is an entirely different topic and honestly is just as prone to being bunker contained. Probably worse off since if your expo gets delayed much further you will be very far behind the terran in both tech and econ.
Having speedlings doesn't help at all vs a bunker contain.
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Hi,
I have the same problems, and even more: What should i do when the T builds an enginnering bay at my natural, and cancel it if i try to kill it, then rebuild one, etc.? (I saw a game where dimaga faced it, and try to kill vcs and engineering with 5 drones, but lost a lot of time).
Same with a Toss who pylon my natural endlessly...
Here is a replay against a T where i face a proxy rax + bunker, what sould i have done to deny it?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121596-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
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Make sure your second ovie is placed at a spot where you can watch the part of your FE that is closest to his base and your ramp. Have one drone follow around his scv to start poking him immediately when you get vision on him if you feel very uncomfortable with this. Once your FE pops, go ahead and put down a spine crawler, the trick is to not let him be able to make a bunker that can shoot your FE. When you pull 4-5 drones when you see the bunker go down you can use some of the drones to go after the marine but make sure you keep pressure on the scv building the bunker.
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Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say.
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On December 30 2010 04:01 Aitrus wrote:Show nested quote +
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say.
I can definitively say I am rank 1 in my league, but that doesn't make my opinion worth more than yours. Just giving my 2 cents as it appears you have not played since rax before depot was patched.
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On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade. I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post. As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled. However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy. IMO
The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote.
RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler.
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On December 30 2010 03:16 rainboow wrote:Hi, I have the same problems, and even more: What should i do when the T builds an enginnering bay at my natural, and cancel it if i try to kill it, then rebuild one, etc.? (I saw a game where dimaga faced it, and try to kill vcs and engineering with 5 drones, but lost a lot of time). Same with a Toss who pylon my natural endlessly... Here is a replay against a T where i face a proxy rax + bunker, what sould i have done to deny it? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121596-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
This is the reason why 11/12/13 hatch can be viable as it might get the hatch actually down before the nat is blocked. A blocked nat basically forces you into pool first. Blocking has become quite common, so one rarely is able to actually get down a 14 hatch
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On December 30 2010 21:16 allele wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade. I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post. As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled. However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy. IMO The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote. RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler.
What about when you factor in roaches dying? Or gas spent that isn't going towards teching? How many roaches does it take to break down 2 bunkers with marines?
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On December 30 2010 11:22 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 Aitrus wrote:
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say. I can definitively say I am rank 1 in my league, but that doesn't make my opinion worth more than yours. Just giving my 2 cents as it appears you have not played since rax before depot was patched.
I actually havent played against that build on Sc2, just assumed it was still viable :O So maybe i am operating on a few misguided assumptions about the nature of the game.
As for pulling drones to stop terran buildings, if your scout leaves at the same time your hatch builder does, that will not allow the T to complete an ebay to the point where it is a viable block, and it will also nullify a lot of bunker pressure.
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the easiest way to stop this is not 14 hatch. speedling expand is by far the safest build and eco advantage u may say doesnt exist if you cant survive. bunker play is part of the game to counter 14 hatch, defending against it will be hell difficult but it is still possible by pulling 6-7 drones to intercept the marine. However you should think about this why do you want to 14 hatch in the first place when you cant mine to support the 14 hatch. Just go speedling expand, imo there is no advantage terran can reap from that build
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On December 31 2010 02:42 IntoTheSnow wrote:
the easiest way to stop this is not 14 hatch. speedling expand is by far the safest build and eco advantage u may say doesnt exist if you cant survive. bunker play is part of the game to counter 14 hatch, defending against it will be hell difficult but it is still possible by pulling 6-7 drones to intercept the marine. However you should think about this why do you want to 14 hatch in the first place when you cant mine to support the 14 hatch. Just go speedling expand, imo there is no advantage terran can reap from that build
Speedling expand involves taking drones off gas at 100. if the terran bunkers you in, what do you do? IMO you are worse off than if you had gone 14 hatch
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You put the speedlings in the nat and pull drones if necessary.
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Pull drones from main... with no natural expansion pending...? Why?
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i have a friend that never dies to bunker rushes when he 14 hatches before pool. He just has an overlord watching and when the scv comes, he'll send a drone and try to pick it off. if that doesn't work, he waits and does a full surround with zerglings made by both hatcheries with queen support and sometimes spine crawlers if he plans to go mutas. the hatchery will have a half of its life left and regen the rest.
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EPT
