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I just finished playing a game on ladder. I am currently a high-rated Platinum player and my opponent was a 2100 Diamond Terran player.
I went for a 13 hatch expansion, to which he replied by placing two bunkers at the base of my ramp. He already had a marine or two out so I couldn't pull drones to kill the bunkers without flat out sacrificing them.
I tried to go for Roaches to bust it, but I noticed he took all of his Marines out as soon as my Expo was killed, I killed the Bunkers, then decided "Hey, fuck it, I'm so far behind I'll just try to Nydus him and end it, since his units are at his [saturated] expansion." He scans my Nydus and I can't place it. I decide to go for the Expo and hope he doesn't push, but he did and I lost.
I re-watched the replay with a friend of mine and neither of us are sure what I could have done to stop this. Maybe if I had gone for Banelings instead of Roaches then just continued to bust through his wall?
I would appreciate it if someone could watch this replay and give me some advice as to what counters this in future situations.
Much thanks.
Replay Here.
Note: I did use the search function and I couldn't find any posts with the Terran player actually blocking the Zerg player's ramp.
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Ok, I did watch the replay.
First of all, I wouldn't have noticed your a platinum if you didn't tell me, and you need really decent against a 2100 Diamond. Great job on that! The reason I wouldn't suggest a Nydus Worm to win is because he bunker walled you, not cannon. A cannon wall completely sets the Protoss back, as you're forced to get a Forge, and dedicate over 400 minerals (with probe mining time, extra cannons, etc.). A bunker rush doesn't really alter the Terran tech, as it just slows his economy down, which isn't a big problem since he killed your expansion that finished anyways. Good job on not overreacting, I do have to point that out. I would have suggested a counter attack, and the overlord positioning could have been better. After a few minutes, move your overlord to his natural cliff, you can see everything being built, and everything that's going in and out. After you killed the bunker, you powered up drones. Don't do this, as from what I've seen you already had enough drones to power off of 1 base. You weren't planning to expo at that time (nydus worm), so the drones were just wasted larva. If you macroed those untouched larva a few seconds earlier, got out 1 more roach and a few more lings, you could have easily counterattacked him before the 3 bunkers finished. (Which you would have seen the 3 bunkers put down desperately if you put an overlord there). So yeah, there isn't really anything build/unit comp wise you could have done, mainly you have to apply pressure back, especially if he expands. Nydus worm probably won't work, as it usually is only effective against cannon wall offs.
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On December 28 2010 16:31 TheUberMango wrote:
Ok, I did watch the replay.
First of all, I wouldn't have noticed your a platinum if you didn't tell me, and you need really decent against a 2100 Diamond. Great job on that! The reason I wouldn't suggest a Nydus Worm to win is because he bunker walled you, not cannon. A cannon wall completely sets the Protoss back, as you're forced to get a Forge, and dedicate over 400 minerals (with probe mining time, extra cannons, etc.). A bunker rush doesn't really alter the Terran tech, as it just slows his economy down, which isn't a big problem since he killed your expansion that finished anyways. Good job on not overreacting, I do have to point that out. I would have suggested a counter attack, and the overlord positioning could have been better. After a few minutes, move your overlord to his natural cliff, you can see everything being built, and everything that's going in and out. After you killed the bunker, you powered up drones. Don't do this, as from what I've seen you already had enough drones to power off of 1 base. You weren't planning to expo at that time (nydus worm), so the drones were just wasted larva. If you macroed those untouched larva a few seconds earlier, got out 1 more roach and a few more lings, you could have easily counterattacked him before the 3 bunkers finished. (Which you would have seen the 3 bunkers put down desperately if you put an overlord there). So yeah, there isn't really anything build/unit comp wise you could have done, mainly you have to apply pressure back, especially if he expands. Nydus worm probably won't work, as it usually is only effective against cannon wall offs.
Thank you for the help, and for the compliment. I mainly only play against Diamonds in Practice and on Ladder, so I've just been waiting to get promoted haha.
On topic, I have never been put in the position to where my entire ramp is walled off (against Terran), so I really had no idea how to react. I just kinda freestyled it and hoped I would win, and hoping just isn't good enough...
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I did not whatch the replay.
I can tell you strait out - if you get bunker walled after a fast expo you have as good as lost. Unless your opponent is bad.
What you want to do is such:
watch Day[9] Daily #226
it will tell you all you need to know about fast expanding VS terran.
From myself I will add that an attempt to wall your ramp must be blocked untill your other drones arrive as it is not covered in the daily.
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The best way to stop it is patrol a drone at the bottem of the ramp until you have a zergling or queen to prevent the bunkers being dropped. The window for this rush is pretty small where they only have around 30 seconds where it can be effective, if you can hold them off for that long you are fine, however keep in mind the terran wont be that far behind you since this build sacrifices little on their part
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you wont be able to block dual bunker wall unless you dedicate at least 2-3 drones on patrol every single match, pool early etc, overpreparing for something you'll get only in 1 match out of 10.
best response imo is to cancel the one being built and go for 2nd inbase hatch, 1-2 spine to be safe and take the bunkers down with no casualties, queen on main hatch, queen on 2nd, oversaturate mineral line and go from there into your standard play.
funky stuff like nydus, drops, expensive busts (as in you wont be able to support busts so early both on your wall and on his) one base muta will get you nowhere.
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Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit.
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On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit.
I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time.
Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect.
Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever.
No need to troll.
What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately.
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I'm pretty sure he meant pool, he said it like 5 times. I think he's just a 6 pool troll, after all, it's the only safe build. 
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Sorry but this is extremely simple:
@3:45 you have 9 drones ... You should have a lot more. No real point in watching further than that imho.
You need to check out a replay of someone doing a proper fast expand build, because you are messing it up and forgetting to drone up, get queens, move drones to expansion before it goes up, patrol a drone at ramp to expansion. It should be really easy to go:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Poolhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Pool
Practice that build against the computer 10 times, and check your larva - make sure you spend them on drones or not at once.
First queen pops at main, use energy for creep (towards natural).
Around 15 supply, move 1 drone to your ramp, and have it patrol the ramp.
When your expansion pops, make one spine crawler instantly.
One overlord should go towards the ledge near terran base so you can see incoming units - and it's not a bad idea to have one drone at the xel naga tower either if you want to be super safe.
Either way I think it's as simply as you forget to make drones and get an okayish economy.
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13 Hatch on close positions really screwed you that game. It's pretty difficult to see this coming unless you leave your overlords in vulnerable positions. (3 scvs camping your base is kind of a give away)
When you see the bunker going down you need to make a snap decision: Can you kill the bunkers or not? In your position you couldn't so the best course of action would have been to cancel the hatch. The terran did a really good job of waiting until it was almost finished though. Making the decision pretty much requires you to play against this build 20 to 30 times until you're comfortable against it.
This kind of displays why terran all-ins are so strong. Zerg doesnt have the early forces necessary to defend with, which is why many zerg players recommend pool first in every match-up. If you insist on hatch first, patrol the drone as stated by a number of posters above. Its the only reliable way to keep yourself from being blocked in.
As for your actual gameplay, the biggest flaw was you didnt scout the terran expansion until it was completely defended. Also, getting a lair and stockpiling gas with no tech path to dump it into.
I doubt you could have really stopped his expo, but it would have been a good idea to try. Allowing T to 2-base vs 1-base zerg is a losing strategy, as I'm sure you already know.
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One technique that you can use to help delay the bunkers from going up is to patrol a drone below your ramp the ramp block should be harder to do after the next patch so I wouldn't let it bug you too much.
The things I will note that probably would of helped out signifcantly vs this is your first queen was super delayed. You saw the bunkers on the minimap long before it came out. And given when the bunkers went down the queen should have already been there I think you could of potentially saved your hatch by building 2 spines and a creep tumor so you could start heading towards the ramp.
Secondly, it is important to know what to scout with your starting drone. A basic terran build is usually rax ~12 gas ~13 or for a tech build ~12 gas ~13 rax. It did not look like your scouting drone ever saw the geyser at the bottom of the t's base. Seeing no gas means the terrans are limited to building the following things: bunkers turrets marines scvs and OC (obviously rax/ebays/CC too) No gas is a sure sign of some type of early aggression or a FE.
Putting your first overlord nearby their natural should give you heads up if they choose the FE route and making a tumor with your first queen should help you out should they choose the marine/scv allin or bunker wall off route.
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On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately.
2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet)
As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production.
My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range.
If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade.
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There are 2 openings that dont suck, the math has been done, 10 extractor trick 11 overpool and 14-16 hatch, 11 overpool is very safe allows you to punish a greedy opener with early lings and is very strong economically, 14-15 hatch ideal economically but have trouble with significant cheeses IE pylon/bunker block, marine SCV all in, proxy 2 gate proxy 2 rax 6 pool etc.
11 overpool has a faster pool, more larva and better income than 14-16 pool and therefore those builds are completely useless, there is no reason ever to use them as far as i can think, other than a a brief timing window around 16 food where the 15 pool has a higher income than 11 overpool
13 hatch larva caps while pooling minerals for the hatch the loss of the 2 larva which happens in a 13 hatch build while pooling minerals makes it significantly weaker than 14 pool which never pools larva and 16 pool, which never fails to instantly spend its larva
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On December 29 2010 10:15 Evoshadow wrote:
There are 2 openings that dont suck, the math has been done, 10 extractor trick 11 overpool and 14-16 hatch, 11 overpool is very safe allows you to punish a greedy opener with early lings and is very strong economically, 14-15 hatch ideal economically but have trouble with significant cheeses IE pylon/bunker block, marine SCV all in, proxy 2 gate proxy 2 rax 6 pool etc.
11 overpool has a faster pool, more larva and better income than 14-16 pool and therefore those builds are completely useless, there is no reason ever to use them as far as i can think, other than a a brief timing window around 16 food where the 15 pool has a higher income than 11 overpool
13 hatch larva caps while pooling minerals for the hatch the loss of the 2 larva which happens in a 13 hatch build while pooling minerals makes it significantly weaker than 14 pool which never pools larva and 16 pool, which never fails to instantly spend its larva
As far as i can "tell" according to the math you lose .5 larva and gain a faster creepspread and 13 hatch is best eco, i mean just going on this thread
TL THREAD
I prefer 13 hatch becuase it means that as soon as the hatch pops i have the right creepspread for a front spine if needed
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On December 29 2010 07:40 aebriol wrote:
@3:45 you have 9 drones ... You should have a lot more. No real point in watching further than that imho.
x2...
At some point you are at 10/18 supply with almost 400 minerals and 3 larva saved up and nothing in production (?!)
Also I think it's the first time I see 13 hatch 12 pool, which is kind of a weird BO.
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On fast rush distance maps especially, I favor the 11 pool build. I have ran some numbers through the BO optimizer, and it is possible to get 5 bannes and 11 zerglings (without speed) in the first 4:30 seconds of play, using a variation of the 11 pool build. Do you want to do this in every zvt? Of course not, but you want to try and stack build orders so that you can transition into rush or rush defence if the need arises. As for roaches vs bannes as counters to bunker rushes, I would go bannes every day. Bannelings are useful in every single zvt machup, and they also do 80 damage to structures and have splash damage. Really hard to beat that. From an economics standpoint, you pay 175 gas for 5 bannes and a banneling nest, and you need only three larva plus whatever you feel is appropriate to dedicate to clean up after the bust.5 roaches will not take out 3 bunkers, costs 2 more larva, a little less gas, and after you break through roaches are not very strong in a zvt machtup unless they go heavy mech. Even then, I think zerglings are a better counter to tanks and thors then roaches.
A 13 hatch build is extremely risky, not a bad BO, just don't think I would have tried it on lost temp. Maybe scrap station or another map with long rush distances.
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On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade.
I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post.
As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled.
However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy.
IMO
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So after reading all of the replies, obviously the best thing is to just not let him contain me with bunkers. So if I do go for a Fast Expand build I should be patrolling one drone at the base of my ramp to prevent it, also place my first ovie on the cliff near his natural to see if he's expanded and what he has for defense.
If he does manage to get the bunkers up, I should just oversaturate my main, spread creep towards my natural, get a few spines, then once the bunkers are down double expand (while getting some attacking units, of course).
Just making sure I understand.
Thanks :p
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You should never, unless racks come before depots or he overcommits several scv to the strategy, lose an expand to a bunker rush. I do agree that a drone below ramp is okay, but definitely scout on 9 to attempt to find his main - understanding the timing needed in rush positions on a map will allow you to understand well when the hatchery should be placed or if you scout a very offensive build like the aforementioned racks prior to supply, the decision to stay in your main for early game may prevail.
Never let the scv complete the building, if you do you are likely to lose the hatchery or suffer detrimental loss. Preventatively, you should send 3 drones for the first scv and 2 for every other he brings to assist in the push. His economy will be slowed and it is likely you will not suffer for having done so as long as your micro holds up. You can simply use your drones to mine your expand, having larva injected your main you should be able to produce a few drones to compensate for the loss at your main.
As soon as your hatchery completes, you need to build one sunken unless you've managed to prevent the building. This will allow the bunker to be busted without wasting valuable mobile map control like zlings - ensure you've appropriately ranged the building.
As other posters have said, droning may not be the best answer to a prevented expo. An evolution chamber and +1 on roaches or even zlings may be an acceptable answer if you think he extends his economy too far and you push him. Additionally, with map control after he sustains acceptable losses, you may be able to expand.
I do not really see the merits of a double expo as this is inviting a mid game push to end your eco boom unless you have good map control, this seems an idealized suggestion that is only viable against incredibly passive players.
May check rep later
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On December 29 2010 12:00 zakmaa wrote:
So after reading all of the replies, obviously the best thing is to just not let him contain me with bunkers. So if I do go for a Fast Expand build I should be patrolling one drone at the base of my ramp to prevent it, also place my first ovie on the cliff near his natural to see if he's expanded and what he has for defense.
If he does manage to get the bunkers up, I should just oversaturate my main, spread creep towards my natural, get a few spines, then once the bunkers are down double expand (while getting some attacking units, of course).
Just making sure I understand.
Thanks :p
Double expand if able to. You will likely be very behind in eco assuming the terran you are facing is any good. If they are good they will have been on their natural for a decent amount of time and be building up a large army, you need to catch up and in order to do this you have to either all in before his advantage fully kicks in or you need to regain your base advantage quickly. A good thing to do is to drop an in base hatch as well because spending a fully saturated bases income off of 1 hatch is difficult. You must keep up scouting as well, be sure of what your opponent is doing. Sac ovies and get a good scout with your overseer when you lair tech.
On December 29 2010 12:29 Aitrus wrote:
You should never, unless racks come before depots or he overcommits several scv to the strategy, lose an expand to a bunker rush. I do agree that a drone below ramp is okay, but definitely scout on 9 to attempt to find his main - understanding the timing needed in rush positions on a map will allow you to understand well when the hatchery should be placed or if you scout a very offensive build like the aforementioned racks prior to supply, the decision to stay in your main for early game may prevail.
Never let the scv complete the building, if you do you are likely to lose the hatchery or suffer detrimental loss. Preventatively, you should send 3 drones for the first scv and 2 for every other he brings to assist in the push. His economy will be slowed and it is likely you will not suffer for having done so as long as your micro holds up. You can simply use your drones to mine your expand, having larva injected your main you should be able to produce a few drones to compensate for the loss at your main.
As soon as your hatchery completes, you need to build one sunken unless you've managed to prevent the building. This will allow the bunker to be busted without wasting valuable mobile map control like zlings - ensure you've appropriately ranged the building.
As other posters have said, droning may not be the best answer to a prevented expo. An evolution chamber and +1 on roaches or even zlings may be an acceptable answer if you think he extends his economy too far and you push him. Additionally, with map control after he sustains acceptable losses, you may be able to expand.
I do not really see the merits of a double expo as this is inviting a mid game push to end your eco boom unless you have good map control, this seems an idealized suggestion that is only viable against incredibly passive players.
May check rep later
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
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Try watch machine's vod on ZvT fe, he explains how to hold it off pretty well.
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I play Terran and I like to use the bunker wall-in. A quick spine crawler or two will stop it cold.
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Don't be greedy and go for 13 hatch. Go for pool + 100 gas for speedling research. And expand at 22 supplies or so.
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I haven't watched the replay, but with a 13 hatch, this should not be really difficult to stop, and you can even go 14 hatch.
If the terran is in close position, transfer some drones (for instance 6 drones) to your nat as soon as the hatch finish. With drones on both sides, it shouldn't be difficult to defend.
I doubt the terran can place 2 bunkers before the drone transfer without cutting scv production, in which case you should be fine just by cancelling the hatch and killing the bunkers with spine crawlers.
A drone paroling at the ramp is the best way to prevent this, but keep in mind that there is no need to react to something that isn't here, don't send a patrolling drone in everygame, only when you see the bunker block coming.
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On December 29 2010 15:40 whomybuddy wrote:
Don't be greedy and go for 13 hatch. Go for pool + 100 gas for speedling research. And expand at 22 supplies or so.
This isn't helpful to his thread, he is asking how to defend FE vs bunker rushes, speedling expand is an entirely different topic and honestly is just as prone to being bunker contained. Probably worse off since if your expo gets delayed much further you will be very far behind the terran in both tech and econ.
Having speedlings doesn't help at all vs a bunker contain.
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Hi,
I have the same problems, and even more: What should i do when the T builds an enginnering bay at my natural, and cancel it if i try to kill it, then rebuild one, etc.? (I saw a game where dimaga faced it, and try to kill vcs and engineering with 5 drones, but lost a lot of time).
Same with a Toss who pylon my natural endlessly...
Here is a replay against a T where i face a proxy rax + bunker, what sould i have done to deny it?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121596-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
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Make sure your second ovie is placed at a spot where you can watch the part of your FE that is closest to his base and your ramp. Have one drone follow around his scv to start poking him immediately when you get vision on him if you feel very uncomfortable with this. Once your FE pops, go ahead and put down a spine crawler, the trick is to not let him be able to make a bunker that can shoot your FE. When you pull 4-5 drones when you see the bunker go down you can use some of the drones to go after the marine but make sure you keep pressure on the scv building the bunker.
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Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say.
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On December 30 2010 04:01 Aitrus wrote:Show nested quote +
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say.
I can definitively say I am rank 1 in my league, but that doesn't make my opinion worth more than yours. Just giving my 2 cents as it appears you have not played since rax before depot was patched.
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On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade. I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post. As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled. However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy. IMO
The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote.
RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler.
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On December 30 2010 03:16 rainboow wrote:Hi, I have the same problems, and even more: What should i do when the T builds an enginnering bay at my natural, and cancel it if i try to kill it, then rebuild one, etc.? (I saw a game where dimaga faced it, and try to kill vcs and engineering with 5 drones, but lost a lot of time). Same with a Toss who pylon my natural endlessly... Here is a replay against a T where i face a proxy rax + bunker, what sould i have done to deny it? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121596-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
This is the reason why 11/12/13 hatch can be viable as it might get the hatch actually down before the nat is blocked. A blocked nat basically forces you into pool first. Blocking has become quite common, so one rarely is able to actually get down a 14 hatch
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On December 30 2010 21:16 allele wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade. I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post. As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled. However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy. IMO The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote. RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler.
What about when you factor in roaches dying? Or gas spent that isn't going towards teching? How many roaches does it take to break down 2 bunkers with marines?
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On December 30 2010 11:22 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 Aitrus wrote:
Are you playing the same game as us? Rax before depot was patched a while ago. Scouting on 10 is fine 9 is unnecessary. +1 roaches versus any kind of MMM or even just MM will get destroyed, +1 roaches is only a real timing push against zerg since they 2 shot zerglings.
The key to a double expand is simply to not drone too hard and use larvae wisely. It's the same concept as building an in base hatchery but instead your extra hatch is at an expansion, it is more difficult to defend but more advantageous to you if you can hold it. It's more risky but after coming out from behind against terran you must make some risks to bring yourself back into the game, whether by double expanding or trying a strong attack.
Well, I can definitively say I played until rank 8 in my diamond league with strategy akin to the one i'm purporting to be effective. I realize a better unit mix might be effective, but the early game i've played would crush an expander following a bunk rush who invests in 3 bunkers to def expo as was described... Dunno what else to say. I can definitively say I am rank 1 in my league, but that doesn't make my opinion worth more than yours. Just giving my 2 cents as it appears you have not played since rax before depot was patched.
I actually havent played against that build on Sc2, just assumed it was still viable :O So maybe i am operating on a few misguided assumptions about the nature of the game.
As for pulling drones to stop terran buildings, if your scout leaves at the same time your hatch builder does, that will not allow the T to complete an ebay to the point where it is a viable block, and it will also nullify a lot of bunker pressure.
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the easiest way to stop this is not 14 hatch. speedling expand is by far the safest build and eco advantage u may say doesnt exist if you cant survive. bunker play is part of the game to counter 14 hatch, defending against it will be hell difficult but it is still possible by pulling 6-7 drones to intercept the marine. However you should think about this why do you want to 14 hatch in the first place when you cant mine to support the 14 hatch. Just go speedling expand, imo there is no advantage terran can reap from that build
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On December 31 2010 02:42 IntoTheSnow wrote:
the easiest way to stop this is not 14 hatch. speedling expand is by far the safest build and eco advantage u may say doesnt exist if you cant survive. bunker play is part of the game to counter 14 hatch, defending against it will be hell difficult but it is still possible by pulling 6-7 drones to intercept the marine. However you should think about this why do you want to 14 hatch in the first place when you cant mine to support the 14 hatch. Just go speedling expand, imo there is no advantage terran can reap from that build
Speedling expand involves taking drones off gas at 100. if the terran bunkers you in, what do you do? IMO you are worse off than if you had gone 14 hatch
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You put the speedlings in the nat and pull drones if necessary.
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Pull drones from main... with no natural expansion pending...? Why?
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i have a friend that never dies to bunker rushes when he 14 hatches before pool. He just has an overlord watching and when the scv comes, he'll send a drone and try to pick it off. if that doesn't work, he waits and does a full surround with zerglings made by both hatcheries with queen support and sometimes spine crawlers if he plans to go mutas. the hatchery will have a half of its life left and regen the rest.
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I saw 2 things you could have done better in that replay that no one else has mentioned yet.
First, I completely disagree with the first poster that you didnt over react. By the time he pulled his units back and salvaged his bunkers, you had only 8 drones mining the whole time. Even if he didnt kill your hatchery, that alone would have made his push entirely worth it. Just remember that bunkers and that choke were the key to him being able to hold you back. Only build enough units to defend against a possible push into your base and use the rest of your larvae for drones.
My second point goes hand in hand with my first point. You kept your units back from the ramp when you should have been up at the top of the ramp as much as possible. Remember, he cant see up the ramp so he cant shoot you. By scouting his position, you can know exactly how much army you need to build to stop a push, thus allowing you to drone up.
I guess I have a final point. It looked like you were in "all-in" mode after the bunker rush finished. I dont think you had enough drones to fully saturate one base by the end of the game because you were so dedicated to building army units. Remember that he sacrificed very little to do that push because he lost no units and salvaged his bunkers. Going all in at that point would have been a guaranteed loss. You shoulda just tried to macro up.
EDIT: lol one more. probably shouldnt build your nydus so close to your entrance. your ramp and your main hatch are prime scan spots. try pooping creep in a corner to build it next time for better hiding 
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On December 31 2010 01:08 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 21:16 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.
Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.
But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit. I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time. Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect. Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever. No need to troll. What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately. 2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet) As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production. My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range. If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade. I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post. As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled. However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy. IMO The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote. RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler. What about when you factor in roaches dying? Or gas spent that isn't going towards teching? How many roaches does it take to break down 2 bunkers with marines?
With the high ground there isn't any need for you to lose any roaches. The gas that 4-6 Roaches cost is pretty much the same as early speed- and does a similar job. You also have the added bonus of a more mobile force once the attack is repelled which can put pressure back on in a way that speedlings and a crawler can't. This can prevent Terran's teching for the short term when roaches knock on his wall in and maybe kill a depot.
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On December 31 2010 03:20 Supamang wrote:EDIT: lol one more. probably shouldnt build your nydus so close to your entrance. your ramp and your main hatch are prime scan spots. try pooping creep in a corner to build it next time for better hiding
I believe he actually scanned twice before his third scan saw my Nydus.
Either way, thank you all very much for all of the advice and help given in this thread. I've actually had a friend bunker rush me multiple times on different maps transitioning into different builds so I can learn to stop it better.
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I routinely block ramps with two bunkers in this fashion and I almost always retreat my rines and SCVs just as the Z is breaking the contain. Spine crawlers are optimal.
However, I wouldn't dismiss roaches entirely. If you have an OL at the natural of the T, you can see if he is expoing or not. I like to bunker rush into a fast expo. When I do this, I skip mauraders and tech straight to tanks. If I slip up on the bunker rush timing or micro too heavily and slip up on my macro, my tanks will be delayed. A 5 roach attack on my wall (I usually wall of my natural on LT), especially on close positions, can cause me a lot of pain until the tank/siege pops.
So I'd say drop one spine crawler and if you have the peace of mind to scout the T with your OL, make a roach warren if he is expoing and has a delayed tech lab add on on his rax, or a delayed factory.
The roach response always makes me nervous and I usually drop two bunkers at my wall to defend. In other words, if you can pressure with the roaches, it will force me to into an extra defensive posture. You don't need to let your roaches die. Rather, poke with them to see if you can damage the wall.
Of course a banshee followup would counter the roach pressure and perhaps set you even farther behind.
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EPT
