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Duban
United States548 Posts
Late refinery: Bunker rush? 2 rax rush? SCV all-in? Fast expand? Late refinery no second barracks: Bunker rush? hidden proxy rax? Fast expand? Unlike cheesy builds from Toss or Zerg I just can't accurately figure out what Terran is doing unlike the dead givaway of a protoss forge(cannon rush), 2 gate before cyber(zealot rush), or 6 pool(says it all). Scouting just isn't enough, any advice? Edit: I'm talking about Diamond league 2.2kish play if it helps. | ||
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
Just pool earlier vs all t, till you get usto it then move into more macro based builds. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
What I suggest 1) the second the scouting scv comes throw a drone on it asap to prevent bunkering. 2) If you see no gas throw down 1-2 spines quick and pop some lings. 3) When he hits pull drones, you can rebuild em quick. 4) Two base bling bust is a good follow up vs a 2 rax attack(unless they follow it up like me and go doub hellion w blue flame  )5) After you hold off attack you can drone pretty safely as T almost always follows this up with an expo. If he does the marine hellion banshee poke, well thats a hard one heh as a T i dont know how to correctly respond, just an extra queen and some slings dont overreact, cuz then youll get melted by the timing push thats coming later. I suggest you scout earlier then you are in your games currently until you can start holding these things off easy. | ||
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RadicalEdwrd
United States53 Posts
You're looking for 3 things when scouting early on imo: -Refinery count -Rax count -Rax addons Dead giveaways to whatever strategy he is doing. If he only has two Rax and isn't doing much of else, then he's saving up for something. It's either an FE or a heavy attack, but either way you know that early aggression is coming because you need that map control to take an expansion and anything other than an FE is going to have a committed followup in some fashion, be it extra bunkers or every single worker he has. You should have enough time to throw up enough Spine Crawlers (2-3?) to defend against the attack. The biggest advantage early pressure has is throwing your opponent off their game by sending them into a panic'd frenzy. As long as you don't get ahead of yourself in taking great strides in unprotected teching then you shouldn't be too caught off guard with an inadequate defense if your scouting is persistent enough. If you need to, get your pool earlier against Terran until you have the map awareness to feel comfortable enough to start experimenting with stretching your defense out. I hope this helps. :x | ||
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s1eger
United States126 Posts
On December 29 2010 07:36 MERLIN. wrote: Well, if you really wanna play anti-cheese open early pool and be agressive instead of the average joe 14hatch, who cares if he goes for a cheese if you get fast units too, you have defense on your side unlike him and you'll be able to place creep tumours effectively faster because the pool making your lings 10x stronger. Just pool earlier vs all t, till you get usto it then move into more macro based builds. this is alllll wrong! it is proven that, for defending 2rax all in, the best opening is hatch first. and as i am 2800zerg(150bonus pool) ill recommend you to, 14hatch 15 pool 17ovie, 21 gas. no matter you change it. on everymap use ur 2nd ovie to scout ur ramp and the neutrals area. and try to put your 1st ovie, where you cann see him coming, just incase of knowing how many scvs he is bringing, if it is more than 4-5 just make lings. otherwise make 2-4extra(yu made 4 asap pool finishes) if he is all ining, make only lings. and asap put spine crawler at your nautral, never NEVER fight of creep(if you have 10lings and he has 4-5 marines you can of course:D) just be sure that spine and queen is your tank and lings are the damage dealers. and if he comes with 2 scv and 1 marine (rally to ur base) just take 5-6 drones from ur main and try to kill his bunker building scv with 2-3 drones, and with the others try to kill marine. it wont be too hard. after that, it waries, you you lost so much drones, make only lings and make a big baneling bust. if not,(you are ahead in economy) make more and more drones, expend second time, and make more queens. and scout him realllllly hard if he tryis to make 2nd all in with all his scv and 5rax, when he moves out his base, just make a lot of banelings. surround him with lings and kill with banes. thats it  edit: in that strat, actually you dont need to scout early. just if he is not attacking, before your second set of larvaes pops out scout him, try to see, if he is going for marine all in, make banelings nest and u know the rest. if not, make 3rd queen, make more drones dont forget spine crawler. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On December 29 2010 07:46 XXXSmOke wrote: Late refinery???? When you scout, the first thing you check for is rax count/gas. If he takes gas he cannot do a 2 rax gasless scv pull. Key word cannot. If hes going gas hes most likely going to do a hellion or marine poke. If you scout no gas its a dead give away man. I dont know of any Terran thats going to cut gas and then just macro unless you throw down like 4 spines. What I suggest 1) the second the scouting scv comes throw a drone on it asap to prevent bunkering. 2) If you see no gas throw down 1-2 spines quick and pop some lings. 3) When he hits pull drones, you can rebuild em quick. 4) Two base bling bust is a good follow up vs a 2 rax attack(unless they follow it up like me and go doub hellion w blue flame )5) After you hold off attack you can drone pretty safely as T almost always follows this up with an expo. If he does the marine hellion banshee poke, well thats a hard one heh as a T i dont know how to correctly respond, just an extra queen and some slings dont overreact, cuz then youll get melted by the timing push thats coming later. I suggest you scout earlier then you are in your games currently until you can start holding these things off easy. This doesn't work, I often times go 2 rax no gas -> FE. If no gas means auto throw down 2 spines you're going to ruin your eco for no reason. 2 Rax no gas FE gives me a faster expo than I can normally get with 13 gas and enough marines to hold off any early aggression from Zerg. To the OP you're going to have to leave some lings near the terran's base. If the terran moves out in an SCV allin you know what you have to do. If you don't see an SCV allin for a little while you can guess it's a 2 rax no gas FE which I think is probably best countered by tech (as no gas sacrifices tech for faster eco/ability to apply some early pressure). | ||
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Duban
United States548 Posts
14 pool 16 +150 minerals extractor 15 hatch build The build results in a fast tech with fast expand combination that's very strong in the mid-late game. It works well and I would rather not rip apart my entire build. Going 14 hatch would mean never doing my build, not even against normal gas timings. I don't mind aborting into 1 base if i have to, but I would rather start with this build and then abort if I see no gas rather than abandon it completely. It works great against normal refinery timings. P.S. To clarify, when I said late gas I meant no refinery scouted by my intitial drone scout. | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On December 29 2010 07:52 revy wrote: This doesn't work, I often times go 2 rax no gas -> FE. If no gas means auto throw down 2 spines you're going to ruin your eco for no reason. 2 Rax no gas FE gives me a faster expo than I can normally get with 13 gas and enough marines to hold off any early aggression from Zerg. I said 1-2, given the skill of a player he may not have the micro to hold this off and need 2. Usually one spine crawler is perfect versus 2 rax no gas FE, stops all the marines nicely. And since the T's gas is delayed it lets you drone harder in the window before tank and medivac giving the Z a nice saturation to go into mid game. 1 sc will not ruin your economy. To OP build 1-2 based on how comfortable you are, id suggest start with 2 then once you get comfy start only building 1. | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
With your scout, if you can confirm that: - He built gas after barracks - His orbital starts as soon as the barracks finishes (with a Marine starting) - His worker count looks about right Then there is no super-fast second rax anywhere. If orbital starts on time but there's no gas, it's either a 1 rax FE or there's a second rax. I'd start looking around the map at that point. If gas is on time but orbital is delayed there's almost certainly a proxy rax with a tech lab coming up. I don't know how you'd go about scouting a normal-timed second rax bunker rush/marine scv all-in though. =/ | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
I usually build my CC right at the natural if I go for a FE so the CC can help me filter zerg units if they decide to attack early. Off the top of my head there are only 2 1v1 ladder maps where it might be somewhat difficult to position an overlord as such. Metalopolis and jungle basin (this is assuming that the FEing terran will go to the backdoor expo if its available) Even if they don't build in the natural to hide the fact they are FEing a little while longer they will at least put close on the cliff so the flight distance isn't very long. Every other thing they do with no gas/delayed gas/delayed orbital is pretty aggressive. Likely you will be able to see the delayed/no gas before your first queen hatches if you see as such possibly you should lay a tumor first as opposed to spawning larva while immediately spawning another queen. Getting your creep to the edge of your main will help out against bunker pushes and if you didn't see a FE by this point or they didn't try to bunker push chances are they are doing a 2 rax push or a marine/scv allin. | ||
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