• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:19
CEST 23:19
KST 06:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202545RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 609 users

[Q]ZvT No gas

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Duban
Profile Joined July 2009
United States548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-28 22:29:15
December 28 2010 22:25 GMT
#1
Alright, unlike all the other types of cheesy play I just can't deal with Terran anymore. Unlike with the other races cheese I can't accurately scout Terran bunker rushes or 2 rax SCV all-ins. The best I can do is check for a late refinery but after that it's just guesswork.

Late refinery:
Bunker rush?
2 rax rush?
SCV all-in?
Fast expand?

Late refinery no second barracks:
Bunker rush?
hidden proxy rax?
Fast expand?

Unlike cheesy builds from Toss or Zerg I just can't accurately figure out what Terran is doing unlike the dead givaway of a protoss forge(cannon rush), 2 gate before cyber(zealot rush), or 6 pool(says it all). Scouting just isn't enough, any advice?

Edit: I'm talking about Diamond league 2.2kish play if it helps.
An ignorant person makes a mistake. A stupid person makes it again.
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
December 28 2010 22:36 GMT
#2
Well, if you really wanna play anti-cheese open early pool and be agressive instead of the average joe 14hatch, who cares if he goes for a cheese if you get fast units too, you have defense on your side unlike him and you'll be able to place creep tumours effectively faster because the pool making your lings 10x stronger.

Just pool earlier vs all t, till you get usto it then move into more macro based builds.
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
XXXSmOke
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States1333 Posts
December 28 2010 22:46 GMT
#3
Late refinery???? When you scout, the first thing you check for is rax count/gas. If he takes gas he cannot do a 2 rax gasless scv pull. Key word cannot. If hes going gas hes most likely going to do a hellion or marine poke. If you scout no gas its a dead give away man. I dont know of any Terran thats going to cut gas and then just macro unless you throw down like 4 spines.

What I suggest
1) the second the scouting scv comes throw a drone on it asap to prevent bunkering.
2) If you see no gas throw down 1-2 spines quick and pop some lings.
3) When he hits pull drones, you can rebuild em quick.
4) Two base bling bust is a good follow up vs a 2 rax attack(unless they follow it up like me and go doub hellion w blue flame )
5) After you hold off attack you can drone pretty safely as T almost always follows this up with an expo.

If he does the marine hellion banshee poke, well thats a hard one heh as a T i dont know how to correctly respond, just an extra queen and some slings dont overreact, cuz then youll get melted by the timing push thats coming later.

I suggest you scout earlier then you are in your games currently until you can start holding these things off easy.
Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.
RadicalEdwrd
Profile Joined May 2010
United States53 Posts
December 28 2010 22:50 GMT
#4
1200 Diamond Terran here.

You're looking for 3 things when scouting early on imo:
-Refinery count
-Rax count
-Rax addons

Dead giveaways to whatever strategy he is doing.

If he only has two Rax and isn't doing much of else, then he's saving up for something. It's either an FE or a heavy attack, but either way you know that early aggression is coming because you need that map control to take an expansion and anything other than an FE is going to have a committed followup in some fashion, be it extra bunkers or every single worker he has. You should have enough time to throw up enough Spine Crawlers (2-3?) to defend against the attack.

The biggest advantage early pressure has is throwing your opponent off their game by sending them into a panic'd frenzy. As long as you don't get ahead of yourself in taking great strides in unprotected teching then you shouldn't be too caught off guard with an inadequate defense if your scouting is persistent enough.

If you need to, get your pool earlier against Terran until you have the map awareness to feel comfortable enough to start experimenting with stretching your defense out.

I hope this helps. :x
"I need to lose. So important to just get out there and just lose the shit out of some games..." -Day[9]
s1eger
Profile Joined August 2010
United States126 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-28 22:55:02
December 28 2010 22:50 GMT
#5
On December 29 2010 07:36 MERLIN. wrote:
Well, if you really wanna play anti-cheese open early pool and be agressive instead of the average joe 14hatch, who cares if he goes for a cheese if you get fast units too, you have defense on your side unlike him and you'll be able to place creep tumours effectively faster because the pool making your lings 10x stronger.

Just pool earlier vs all t, till you get usto it then move into more macro based builds.


this is alllll wrong!

it is proven that, for defending 2rax all in, the best opening is hatch first. and as i am 2800zerg(150bonus pool) ill recommend you to, 14hatch 15 pool 17ovie, 21 gas. no matter you change it. on everymap use ur 2nd ovie to scout ur ramp and the neutrals area. and try to put your 1st ovie, where you cann see him coming, just incase of knowing how many scvs he is bringing, if it is more than 4-5 just make lings. otherwise make 2-4extra(yu made 4 asap pool finishes) if he is all ining, make only lings. and asap put spine crawler at your nautral, never NEVER fight of creep(if you have 10lings and he has 4-5 marines you can of course:D) just be sure that spine and queen is your tank and lings are the damage dealers.

and if he comes with 2 scv and 1 marine (rally to ur base) just take 5-6 drones from ur main and try to kill his bunker building scv with 2-3 drones, and with the others try to kill marine. it wont be too hard.

after that, it waries, you you lost so much drones, make only lings and make a big baneling bust. if not,(you are ahead in economy) make more and more drones, expend second time, and make more queens. and scout him realllllly hard if he tryis to make 2nd all in with all his scv and 5rax, when he moves out his base, just make a lot of banelings. surround him with lings and kill with banes.

thats it

edit: in that strat, actually you dont need to scout early. just if he is not attacking, before your second set of larvaes pops out scout him, try to see, if he is going for marine all in, make banelings nest and u know the rest. if not, make 3rd queen, make more drones dont forget spine crawler.
cOoL
revy
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1524 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-28 22:57:35
December 28 2010 22:52 GMT
#6
On December 29 2010 07:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Late refinery???? When you scout, the first thing you check for is rax count/gas. If he takes gas he cannot do a 2 rax gasless scv pull. Key word cannot. If hes going gas hes most likely going to do a hellion or marine poke. If you scout no gas its a dead give away man. I dont know of any Terran thats going to cut gas and then just macro unless you throw down like 4 spines.

What I suggest
1) the second the scouting scv comes throw a drone on it asap to prevent bunkering.
2) If you see no gas throw down 1-2 spines quick and pop some lings.
3) When he hits pull drones, you can rebuild em quick.
4) Two base bling bust is a good follow up vs a 2 rax attack(unless they follow it up like me and go doub hellion w blue flame )
5) After you hold off attack you can drone pretty safely as T almost always follows this up with an expo.

If he does the marine hellion banshee poke, well thats a hard one heh as a T i dont know how to correctly respond, just an extra queen and some slings dont overreact, cuz then youll get melted by the timing push thats coming later.

I suggest you scout earlier then you are in your games currently until you can start holding these things off easy.


This doesn't work, I often times go 2 rax no gas -> FE. If no gas means auto throw down 2 spines you're going to ruin your eco for no reason. 2 Rax no gas FE gives me a faster expo than I can normally get with 13 gas and enough marines to hold off any early aggression from Zerg.

To the OP you're going to have to leave some lings near the terran's base. If the terran moves out in an SCV allin you know what you have to do. If you don't see an SCV allin for a little while you can guess it's a 2 rax no gas FE which I think is probably best countered by tech (as no gas sacrifices tech for faster eco/ability to apply some early pressure).
Duban
Profile Joined July 2009
United States548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-28 23:20:15
December 28 2010 23:18 GMT
#7
Decent points so far, but i'm very partial to a
14 pool
16 +150 minerals extractor
15 hatch build

The build results in a fast tech with fast expand combination that's very strong in the mid-late game. It works well and I would rather not rip apart my entire build. Going 14 hatch would mean never doing my build, not even against normal gas timings. I don't mind aborting into 1 base if i have to, but I would rather start with this build and then abort if I see no gas rather than abandon it completely. It works great against normal refinery timings.

P.S. To clarify, when I said late gas I meant no refinery scouted by my intitial drone scout.
An ignorant person makes a mistake. A stupid person makes it again.
Bair
Profile Joined May 2010
United States698 Posts
December 28 2010 23:32 GMT
#8
Something I ran into that you should be careful about is your opponent building 2 rax, no gas, and nothing else until your scout is dead. Had a guy do this to me yesterday before immediately going banshee. Should be easy to get him with an overlord scout though with plenty of time to lay down some spores.
In Roaches I Rust.
XXXSmOke
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States1333 Posts
December 29 2010 00:03 GMT
#9
On December 29 2010 07:52 revy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 07:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Late refinery???? When you scout, the first thing you check for is rax count/gas. If he takes gas he cannot do a 2 rax gasless scv pull. Key word cannot. If hes going gas hes most likely going to do a hellion or marine poke. If you scout no gas its a dead give away man. I dont know of any Terran thats going to cut gas and then just macro unless you throw down like 4 spines.

What I suggest
1) the second the scouting scv comes throw a drone on it asap to prevent bunkering.
2) If you see no gas throw down 1-2 spines quick and pop some lings.
3) When he hits pull drones, you can rebuild em quick.
4) Two base bling bust is a good follow up vs a 2 rax attack(unless they follow it up like me and go doub hellion w blue flame )
5) After you hold off attack you can drone pretty safely as T almost always follows this up with an expo.

If he does the marine hellion banshee poke, well thats a hard one heh as a T i dont know how to correctly respond, just an extra queen and some slings dont overreact, cuz then youll get melted by the timing push thats coming later.

I suggest you scout earlier then you are in your games currently until you can start holding these things off easy.


This doesn't work, I often times go 2 rax no gas -> FE. If no gas means auto throw down 2 spines you're going to ruin your eco for no reason. 2 Rax no gas FE gives me a faster expo than I can normally get with 13 gas and enough marines to hold off any early aggression from Zerg.



I said 1-2, given the skill of a player he may not have the micro to hold this off and need 2. Usually one spine crawler is perfect versus 2 rax no gas FE, stops all the marines nicely. And since the T's gas is delayed it lets you drone harder in the window before tank and medivac giving the Z a nice saturation to go into mid game. 1 sc will not ruin your economy.

To OP build 1-2 based on how comfortable you are, id suggest start with 2 then once you get comfy start only building 1.
Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.
Shlowpoke
Profile Joined August 2010
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 00:07:11
December 29 2010 00:03 GMT
#10
You can get some decent information even before a Marine is out.

With your scout, if you can confirm that:
- He built gas after barracks
- His orbital starts as soon as the barracks finishes (with a Marine starting)
- His worker count looks about right

Then there is no super-fast second rax anywhere.

If orbital starts on time but there's no gas, it's either a 1 rax FE or there's a second rax. I'd start looking around the map at that point. If gas is on time but orbital is delayed there's almost certainly a proxy rax with a tech lab coming up.

I don't know how you'd go about scouting a normal-timed second rax bunker rush/marine scv all-in though. =/
Shlowpoke
Profile Joined August 2010
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 00:07:02
December 29 2010 00:06 GMT
#11
edit: whoops double post
terranghost
Profile Joined May 2010
United States980 Posts
December 29 2010 00:54 GMT
#12
I would think positioning your first overlord near where their natural is would help you determine if it was FE or some type of aggressive build.
I usually build my CC right at the natural if I go for a FE so the CC can help me filter zerg units if they decide to attack early.
Off the top of my head there are only 2 1v1 ladder maps where it might be somewhat difficult to position an overlord as such. Metalopolis and jungle basin (this is assuming that the FEing terran will go to the backdoor expo if its available)
Even if they don't build in the natural to hide the fact they are FEing a little while longer they will at least put close on the cliff so the flight distance isn't very long.

Every other thing they do with no gas/delayed gas/delayed orbital is pretty aggressive. Likely you will be able to see the delayed/no gas before your first queen hatches if you see as such possibly you should lay a tumor first as opposed to spawning larva while immediately spawning another queen.

Getting your creep to the edge of your main will help out against bunker pushes and if you didn't see a FE by this point or they didn't try to bunker push chances are they are doing a 2 rax push or a marine/scv allin.
"It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it." - Thomas Sowell
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 41m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .275
Nathanias 229
BRAT_OK 42
ForJumy 30
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 26
Bale 7
Counter-Strike
Fnx 864
Foxcn380
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe75
Liquid`Ken16
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu508
Other Games
tarik_tv6940
summit1g4503
Grubby3555
FrodaN1599
C9.Mang0186
Sick44
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV17
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta73
• StrangeGG 62
• HeavenSC 42
• musti20045 33
• poizon28 32
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 34
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22511
League of Legends
• Doublelift2353
• TFBlade820
Other Games
• imaqtpie1320
• Shiphtur388
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
12h 41m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 13h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.