[H] ZvT Defending Bunker Rushes - Page 3

Supamang

United States2298 Posts

December 30 2010 18:20 GMT

#41

I saw 2 things you could have done better in that replay that no one else has mentioned yet.

First, I completely disagree with the first poster that you didnt over react. By the time he pulled his units back and salvaged his bunkers, you had only 8 drones mining the whole time. Even if he didnt kill your hatchery, that alone would have made his push entirely worth it. Just remember that bunkers and that choke were the key to him being able to hold you back. Only build enough units to defend against a possible push into your base and use the rest of your larvae for drones.

My second point goes hand in hand with my first point. You kept your units back from the ramp when you should have been up at the top of the ramp as much as possible. Remember, he cant see up the ramp so he cant shoot you. By scouting his position, you can know exactly how much army you need to build to stop a push, thus allowing you to drone up.

I guess I have a final point. It looked like you were in "all-in" mode after the bunker rush finished. I dont think you had enough drones to fully saturate one base by the end of the game because you were so dedicated to building army units. Remember that he sacrificed very little to do that push because he lost no units and salvaged his bunkers. Going all in at that point would have been a guaranteed loss. You shoulda just tried to macro up.

EDIT: lol one more. probably shouldnt build your nydus so close to your entrance. your ramp and your main hatch are prime scan spots. try pooping creep in a corner to build it next time for better hiding

allele

United States25 Posts

December 31 2010 14:26 GMT

#42

On December 31 2010 01:08 MorsCerta wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 30 2010 21:16 allele wrote:

On December 29 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:

On December 29 2010 08:43 allele wrote:

On December 29 2010 07:04 MorsCerta wrote:

On December 29 2010 06:57 Veasel wrote:
Do you really think you even can go fucking 13pool without getting punished for it? And after you actually analyzing what's wrong. ITS A FCKING 13pool, what would you expect?!?!.

Srry dude but even if you play at your very very best i wouldnt think about flaws when play 13pool. Its made to backfire if its scouted and anyone want to bunker / cannon rush you.

But hey if u manage to actually hold back an bunker rush while 13pooling, sure good for you. But if it can't hold then just leave that stupid shit.

I think you meant 13 hatch that entire time.

Also...early hatch vT is standard? 13 hatch, 14 hatch or 15 hatch with either 14 or 15 pool is standard. The issue is just learning how to defend it, and the only way to do that is to keep losing to early pressure until your execution is perfect.

Not saying my execution is perefect but I always go 14 Hatch/15 Pool vs T and I have not lost to 2 rax or bunker rushing in forever.

No need to troll.

What I do is patrol a drone, and normally have another waiting to help attack SCVs and another waiting to build the hatch. So worse come to worse I have 3 drones ready to help fight immediately.

2200 diamond zerg (not that you care, but i got promoted a few weeks ago and i'm not tired of saying it yet)

As some other posters have said 13 hatch, 12 pool is a terrible opening. As zerg larva are your friend- by going 13 hatch, 12 pool you lose 2-3 larva due to having 3 at your hatch which prevents the building of new larva. This is why 14 hatch 14 pool, 14 hatch 15 pool are so strong- you don't lose much in the larva production.

My favorite way to deal with bunkers is quick roaches- 14 hatch, 14 pool, and when your pool is done Roach warren, queen and then the fastest crawler you can afford after ward. For a bunker wall in you want to use your first 25 energy to make a tumor so that you can get the crawler to the top of the cliff to kill his bunkers. Learn when to stop drone production and when to put up your gas to get at least 3 roaches asap. On LT your roaches can hit his bunkers without being hit if he walls in the ramp so make sure you make your first roaches at your main, not the natural, or you wont have this advantage. If he tries to repair target fire the scvs, then move the roaches back out of range.

If he kills your hatch it will cost him 2 bunkers 2-3 scvs and 2-4 marines- which is a close trade.

I'm a 2500D and why would you ever go 13 Hatch 12 pool? it's 13 Hatch/15 Pool. I am confused as to why you quoted me as none of what you said applies to my post.

As a side note fast roaches to deal with bunkers will leave you behind. Those roaches should be drones, you are better off teching and building 1 or 2 spine crawlers to out range and hit the bunkers from the cliff and then double expanding. Roaches suck against anything that isnt mech so if you have a lot of roaches and the terran stays bio not only will you behind in eco, your army will get rolled.

However I would much rather just NOT get bunker walled. Which is really simple, you just have to play it safe and patrol a drone, you are already being a greedy fuck by going 13-15 hatch, no need to be extra greedy.

IMO

The reply wasn't meant for your, just a bad quote.

RE: roaches V Crawler. A successful roach defense uses the same # of larva as a successful Crawler defense when you factor in that you can inject with your queens first 25 rather than creep for the crawler.

What about when you factor in roaches dying? Or gas spent that isn't going towards teching? How many roaches does it take to break down 2 bunkers with marines?

With the high ground there isn't any need for you to lose any roaches. The gas that 4-6 Roaches cost is pretty much the same as early speed- and does a similar job. You also have the added bonus of a more mobile force once the attack is repelled which can put pressure back on in a way that speedlings and a crawler can't. This can prevent Terran's teching for the short term when roaches knock on his wall in and maybe kill a depot.

zakmaa

Canada525 Posts

December 31 2010 19:07 GMT

#43

On December 31 2010 03:20 Supamang wrote:
EDIT: lol one more. probably shouldnt build your nydus so close to your entrance. your ramp and your main hatch are prime scan spots. try pooping creep in a corner to build it next time for better hiding

I believe he actually scanned twice before his third scan saw my Nydus.

Either way, thank you all very much for all of the advice and help given in this thread. I've actually had a friend bunker rush me multiple times on different maps transitioning into different builds so I can learn to stop it better.

skatbone

United States1005 Posts

December 31 2010 23:52 GMT

#44

I routinely block ramps with two bunkers in this fashion and I almost always retreat my rines and SCVs just as the Z is breaking the contain. Spine crawlers are optimal.

However, I wouldn't dismiss roaches entirely. If you have an OL at the natural of the T, you can see if he is expoing or not. I like to bunker rush into a fast expo. When I do this, I skip mauraders and tech straight to tanks. If I slip up on the bunker rush timing or micro too heavily and slip up on my macro, my tanks will be delayed. A 5 roach attack on my wall (I usually wall of my natural on LT), especially on close positions, can cause me a lot of pain until the tank/siege pops.

So I'd say drop one spine crawler and if you have the peace of mind to scout the T with your OL, make a roach warren if he is expoing and has a delayed tech lab add on on his rax, or a delayed factory.

The roach response always makes me nervous and I usually drop two bunkers at my wall to defend. In other words, if you can pressure with the roaches, it will force me to into an extra defensive posture. You don't need to let your roaches die. Rather, poke with them to see if you can damage the wall.

Of course a banshee followup would counter the roach pressure and perhaps set you even farther behind.

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