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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cauthonluck_cheese
It's been marked as possibly out of date, anyone given it any thought lately?
I'm in mid gold and am getting roflstomped by a good friend in Diamond Zerg, so I'm trying to learn from the experience.
Thoughts:
- Obviously, the build cannot start without a supply depot anymore, so it's less of an all-in or a cheese.
- I seem to be able to get a banshee out (without worrying about cloak) around the in-game 7:00 mark.
- I definitely will have minerals and gas left over after just keeping up with supply depot/marine/scv production.
Questions:
- Disregarding other builds: Is anyone using this build with good results?
- I've even managed to squeak out a Thor in the transition period, building an Armory while waiting for the first Banshee to come out. Is it safe/worth it to use a scan on the zerg base or should I improve the local defenses generally? How have you used the extra mins/gas wisely?
Thanks for the help and discussion 
(/noob)
**update with test and thought results**
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162031#16
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A really good way of getting better is by not cheesing imo. While cheese is an important part of the game, it will not help you much against a diamond player that's expecting it.
Scans are worthwhile to do every once in a while, but spend most of your energy on mules.
I'm only a 1300 diamond zerg, so take it for what it's worth, but learning the game by cheesing is bad imo :D
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You're mid gold and getting stomped by a diamond, I don't see what the problem is?
Judging from the post also I'm sure he has recognized the one cheese strat you are trying to use against him and has obviously come up with a strat to stop it.
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u cant do this now because u need to build a depot before any of these other buildings, so it would be a bit later.
u also shud watch out for roach rush cuz thats pretty popular now and would probly destroy this build.
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7 mins seems reeeeeeally late for a banshee... i haven't timed it but i'm sure it can be down around 5 min.
if you have mineral/gas left over then you're doing it wrong, build more rax/tech and don't bother making more than 2 banshee's unless your first two are highly effective and your opponent isn't able to counter.
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I want to clarify that I'm trying to build a solid strat that actually has teeth; I find that a default for zerg is to have one queen per base and some lings, which even in Gold (and by my friend) seems plenty to hold off 2-3 hellions. Actually, I haven't tried this strat against my friend yet only the ground based harasses which he just deflects. Just a couple times against the AI (not enough time to play ladder to find zergs D.
I am definitely hoping to hear your experience with this build post 1.1.2.
Back to my original questions:
- Disregarding other builds: Is anyone using this build with good results?
1) Doesn't seem like anyone is using it -- It's either really bad or a gem in the rough, and so far seems like just bad ... but maybe someone who is not saving it for Pro will let me know if it's working?
- How have you used the extra mins/gas wisely?
2) Still kinda unanswered: Even at 7:00 in game, the Banshee takes out a queen 1-on-1 (already a good trade) and then a couple extra drones (good trade). SCV repair + bunker w/rines + extra thick wall + thor also seems to hold off a roach/baneling push. The next banshee to pop can either continue the harass or help cleanup Roach rush at the front door.
Adding a third question:
3) If alternates are really much better, are there any in-game times / unit quantities that significantly harass zerg? Or, at least can you say if the harass can significantly change the "build just enough units" zerg strat? I have confidence in my ability to early game econ + tech and would love to build an interesting unit comp and then learn the right attack micro for it. Such as the hellion micro above: what are good times to aim for first hellion, second hellion, etc?
Much thanks!~
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On October 20 2010 01:20 hoovehand wrote:
7 mins seems reeeeeeally late for a banshee... i haven't timed it but i'm sure it can be down around 5 min.
if you have mineral/gas left over then you're doing it wrong, build more rax/tech and don't bother making more than 2 banshee's unless your first two are highly effective and your opponent isn't able to counter.
5 mins in game! Ok, I'll shoot for it.
As for "leftover minerals", I don't actually not spend them, it's more like what could I try in that time period? Cheers!
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I don't see a reason to NOT continue to build banshees (or a raven, or SOMETHING out of that starport.) Banshees are a great source of dps to back up midgame ground armies, and if he goes hydras to "counter" your banshees, you can really punish him.
Depot Refinery Rax OC Factory Starport (techlab on factory while port is building) Banshees seems like some pretty darn fast banshees without going totally all-in as long as you don't suicide your banshees. I don't think you need to cut SCVs/Marines, and you probably can toss in a bunker if you scout early pressure.
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I think that this is a viable build but should only be used occasionally. It is kind of relying on the hope that the zerg u are facing does not make a 3rd queen ( or 2nd if he is on 1 base only). In other words u can catch a zerg off guard with this sometimes, but if he is a good player playing a safe style, or scouts your banshee with an early ol, then you have put alot of resources into a strat that probably wont work. I think a better version of this build is to do an early harrass with helion and transition into a quick banshee. Not doing any harrass early means the chances of him having enough to defend a banshee goes up drastically. That said, this is not a completely all in build. If your first banshee doenst work just continue to pump them out with a raven or two, then push with a big force of marines with banshees behined them and maybe a couple medivacs. that is a very devastating push to deal with as zerg.
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On October 20 2010 01:30 ianoji wrote:I want to clarify that I'm trying to build a solid strat that actually has teeth; I find that a default for zerg is to have one queen per base and some lings, which even in Gold (and by my friend) seems plenty to hold off 2-3 hellions. Actually, I haven't tried this strat against my friend yet only the ground based harasses which he just deflects. Just a couple times against the AI (not enough time to play ladder to find zergs D .
I just wanted to take a moment to address this part for you. You're correct that the Zerg (especially in Diamond) have plenty to old off 2-3 hellions. This is because we've been facing hellion harass for quite some time, and we've all learned to adapt. The purpose of the hellions is not to destroy the Zerg, but to do damage to their economy. Consider the mineral cost of the hellions that you push the base with. You essentially need to kill that # worth of Zerg units to balance the minerals you invested in the harass. It's just that, a harassment tactic. You also want to force a Zerg to use larva on unneeded military units, since that means he's not making drones while you continue to pump SCVs and MULEs. Zerg lacks the ability to just call down a few MULEs to get back in the game after losing every single harvester.
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You will DIE against any sort of earlly pressure anyways with Cauthonluck cheese. It only works on Desert Oasis where the ground travelling time is so f00king long that Blizard finally decided to get rid of it.
Instead of Cauthonluck cheese you can do 10depo 11gas 12rax and get a cloaked banshee at his base before 8:00.(7:20 or so for none-cloaked) It's still highly risky though cuz 6pool PWNZ gas before rax. Also 4gate kinda pwnz 1-1-1 unless you have at least 2 bunkers. Fast VRs kill you too.(maybe not for post patch though)
For safety I usually go 10depo 12rax against any Z. If I see a pool get a depo asap(at the latest 14), if I see FE instead depot at 16-18. Your cloaked banshee will not be there until 8:20~40 so you won't kill him, but at least you can get some good scout with it.
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Thanks everyone so far your feedback.
I'll try harassing with the 2 hellions (rally outside wall) to keep Zerg honest about producing some units, as a variant to keep the pressure up and shift them towards the ground game. I can definitely produce those while waiting for the first banshee, and still have some rines/rauder/bunker for basic ground D.
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im only high gold playing high gold/low plat players but I have a pretty good double starport build (pretty good for my level lol), I can squeeze out my first banshee pretty fast without having to go all in. If the first couple banshee's fail i just pop out a raven, and tech swap my buildings.
The main issue with the fast banshee builds is that you have to sacrifice everything else to get them out fast.So you end up with rines and banshees and not much else. This isn't a bad thing always, you can keep pumping banshees and rines and just attack straight up through the front door, 10 rines and 5 banshees will bust a hole in alot of opposing builds.... someone did it in GSL today to take a game.
My build goes something like this (note i don't know the extact supply i do stuff at once past the orb command, as i just worked on the build until i could do it majorly fast and didn't care what the supply was at specific points) i assume its pretty similar to most banshee builds:
10 supply
11 ref - should give you 100 gas right as rax finishes
12 rax
14 ref
15 Orb Comm (should be seconds after Rax hits 100%)
soon as you can afford your fact, do it.
from that point on, i just pump SCV's (and rines with any extra cash)
@fact 100% 2 starports (grab first one, then second soon as you hit 150/100
tech lab on fact for tech switch with the port
@2nd port 100% tech-lab (you could build it on your rax, but that would mean less rines to defend with)
then pump out 2-3 banshee, harass like mad. Also stick a reactor on your rax and fact... this will be essential to transition out of the rush ;p
If no anti-air: pump banshee's and rines/hellion with any spare minerals and get start cloak for when his anti air comes.
If anti-air: Bring them home, pump out 2 more banshees (giving you 4-5, build a raven if you are already there) and swap your building tech and start pumping MMM and tanks (if you have the resources grab pre-igniter for your hellions, assuming you made them)
After that you basically play normally just with some nice banshees in your army mix.
Any extra cash I have during getting banshees out goes on an ebay, rax etc.... only stuff that doesn't need gas.
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My disclaimer on this (apart from being reccomended by me, a gold player) is that its not worth doing on maps where the air rush distance is long, or if you get rushed yourself as you will have literally nothing to fight with for the first couple minutes except a few rines. If you get rushed, you can carry on with the planned banshees later, assuming you can easily hold the rush.... i.e 6 pool but you walled in or 2gate zealot rush, but you will need to focus on defending first obviously. If you got proxied inside your base, you are screwed with this build unless your opp is a moron ;p
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Cathonluck cheese is indeed obsolete because of patch 1.1.2. It would be better at this point to do a double starport banshee with early reactor hellion. Cathonluck cheese relied on getting your supply depot late so that you could have the FASTEST banshee ever, but that's not possible anymore. Anyway, as far as I know, Cathonluck cheese was only useful on maps with long rush distances but short air distances (desert oasis, scrap station maybe, etc)
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I think the roach buff undermines this more than the supply before barracks. While timing is slowed by a few seconds, there is a HUGE increase in the likelihood of being rushed with roaches. RIP Cauthonluck cheese.
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http://replayfu.com/r/9dm9Br
http://replayfu.com/r/KRJktq (roach ling rush)
I finally sat down to record my "solution", which isn't cheese anymore, but is now my core build against all races. Maybe it's just plain old 1:1:1, but my banshee and cloak are complete at in-game 7:40. in real time, that's a little more than "5 minutes" http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Game_Speed.
I have fended off RR with zergling support with this before by setting my bunker back from the wall, just enough to hit whoever's right up at the top of the ramp.
* If it's all zealots or lings, it's easy to pull 3 scv's off and auto-repair.
* If it's a lot of roaches, the second banshee cleans up.
* If it's a Terran also going banshee rush, I cancel my banshee and build a viking instead.
* At the same time I'm transitioning into Thors with an Armory build.
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Anyone else got their own version of the 1:1:1? Or, a different path to fastest banshee? Would love to see replays and times, as I'm sure I'm not the most efficient at this.
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EPT
