|
I would like to submit some of my lower-diamond level replays and suggest more 1-base play from Zerg players.
I, like many others have struggled with my early game. 4-gate pushes, mass marines, thor pushes, and all the like have caused me many headaches because I just can't seem to defend myself... if only I had about 400 more minerals... then I realized how useless a FE is when I lose to all those relatively minor strategies.
I cannot fully saturate 1 base at that point in the game, why do I need a second?
Between Roaches, Banelings, Zerglings, Queens, and upgrading to Lair, I can balance my econ, tech, and army all off of one base. My army actually has some bite to it, and having 2 Queens on one base gives me plenty of energy for transfuse, not to mention Queens aren't exactly bad in combat.
The first game is PvZ, defending against 4-gate off basically 1 base with a fairly new expo. He gets a nice ambush off on about 1/2 my army in mid game and with the backup of my queens, I am STILL able to hold him off.
http://www.mediafire.com/?335dqt6q9tj3qr1
The second is a rather funky ZvZ I had, I noticed my opponent was going for a FE so I punished him, thinking the game was gonna be over that quick I went in for the kill, he punished me. At which point we basically completely skip all the baneling retardation and move straight into Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Lings and Queens on my end, but not his. I really should have lost that game, but Queens are just too awesome. I mostly include it for the ending, where a fellow Zerg player gets upset at my use of Queens. Let's change this mentality.
http://www.mediafire.com/?3f80gwlisz9a66n
In neither game do I expand quickly. In fact, I make it a point to connect to my FE with creep before I ever even lay a hatchery down.
Changing my opening play in this manner has allowed me to be more aggressive in early game and have a better army AND economy while I am transitioning to mid-game, those 300 min + drone I would have spent on a hatchery really are just a whole lot more useful when they're spent making a Roach Warren and a second Queen.
Thoughts? Replays? Try it out and see how it changes the early game for you, then let's discuss if FE really are necessary for Zerg in SC2.
|
THanks for your post and replays! I'll be checking them out tonight forsure and I'm glad to see more people are adopting the 1 base play and not FE'ing asap as you do have a way better early game.
|
1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had.
|
1 Base ZvZ is the normal strategy so I ignored that replay. It seems like what you did was basically like an all-in push waiting to happen, but you just kind of sat there and eventually expanded. Against a fast expand Protoss or Terran, this strategy would fall behind quickly in economy. Maybe you should make another Hatchery in your main base and pump workers from it. But if you're going to make an extra hatchery, you might as well just put it in your natural and get a better economy.
You can 1 base as Zerg if you put an extra hatchery to keep up production, but there is no reason to not expand with the extra hatchery so 1 basing without all-in pushing is pointless.
|
On August 06 2010 09:53 Spyridon wrote:
1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had.
Yeah, the 1 base and Queens in the ZvZ are nothing new, I was mostly just pointing out that my opponent like many Zerg players out there think Queens are a 1 per hatchery unit, and they are much more useful than that.
On the ZvP game, I think that is either criticizing him for not being pro, or just unfair in general. We both had lacking macro, that is why we're at the level we are at. Saying he should have more Immortals or Colossi is saying he should have gone 3 gate/robo.
It took me 12 minutes to get a worker lead on him, so all things considered, I thought his macro was fine. I made his 4-gate push w/ proxy pylon look so ineffective he didn't even bother continuing to warp units in, then at the 15 min mark he ambushes the majority of my army, which I was in the middle of setting up to flank his next push. Then here's the important part from Zerg perspective. I hold off 19 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 immortals, and 3 sentries with 5 roaches, 8 hydras, 3 queens, 1 spine crawler and 7 more roaches that reinforce in the middle of the battle. Simple math says he had the advantage, but by putting LESS EMPHASIS ON EXPANSIONS, and incorporating Queens with transfuse, I can hold him back.
By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
|
well i've started expanding later, if that's what you mean. Spending those 300 minerals on hatchery that early is so useless, better to spend them on drones and your lategame won't suffer a bit -.-
|
You don't need to saturate to make the second hatchery useful. You need the second hatchery for the larvae. Even if all you do is split your drones between the two bases, you improve your economy since the drones are all mining at 100% efficiency.
Not getting a second hatchery is gimping yourself in ZvT and ZvP. ZvZ is a completely different animal.
|
In addition to what Fistdantilus says, you also really need the extra Gas as Zerg. Once you hit Lair you'll need to spend several hundreds in upgrades and tech structures.
|
You really DON'T need the gas until you're well into T2. Put 6 drones on gas as soon as you're comfortable and leave them there. Gas is never an issue for me it's always minerals holding me back. I really don't know what you have to spend all that gas on in T1.
100 for ling speed, 100 for Lair, 150 for +1 carapace. All other gas can go to Roaches and Banelings.
Actually I have a better idea... post a replay where you have 2 extractors up and running and are stock-piling minerals due to larva and gas constraints. If you are making any zerglings at all this will be a non-issue.
I'm not saying gas isn't an issue at T2. I <3 my hydras, +2 carapace, ovie upgrades, speed upgrades, range upgrades, infestors, spire, mutas. Those are all very gas intensive. But the majority of my issues come up as I'm transitioning into T2, not when I've been there for a while.
|
On August 06 2010 10:34 Jermstuddog wrote:
By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
You held off an all-in attack (4 Warpgate Rush) with your own all-in. You're staying competitive with the Protoss player that all-ins...that is not good. Fast Expand isn't necessary, but an extra hatchery for larva necessary is if you want to play standard to keep up worker production. And if you're going to put down an extra hatchery, it is just better to put it at your natural. It is pointless to put it in your main when you will expand fast anyway.
|
For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
And how is living through an all-in a bad thing? Even if I only match the opponents economy, once his all-in fails, the game is still going on, and we all know what happens once Ultralisks come out. Zerg continuing the game by simply living and gaining no advantage, but not losing any ground is a very valid strategy and can end up winning games quite handily as you can expand faster and impose more map control once you've settled into the midgame, I don't see how living through a 4-gate is in any way a bad thing...
|
On August 06 2010 11:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
11 drones on minerals are all it takes to constantly produce zerglings (or drones, in this case) and overlords with a queen constantly injecting. By the time the queen is out you will already have more than 11 drones on minerals. Sure, you can collect upgrades and find ways to spend the excess. But on 2 hatches you can spend 20+ drone income on more drones, then switch that now massive economy to power out units and upgrades. The production capability of 2 hatches quickly eclipses that one of hatch.
|
On August 06 2010 11:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
And how is living through an all-in a bad thing? Even if I only match the opponents economy, once his all-in fails, the game is still going on, and we all know what happens once Ultralisks come out. Zerg continuing the game by simply living and gaining no advantage, but not losing any ground is a very valid strategy and can end up winning games quite handily as you can expand faster and impose more map control once you've settled into the midgame, I don't see how living through a 4-gate is in any way a bad thing...
Yeah, if you just make 24 drones and start massing an army, larva won't be an issue because you have a bad economy. But if you actually produce workers throughout the game like standard players do, you need more larva to support a bigger economy. You also need larva to produce workers in the first place.
Living through an all-in isn't a bad thing, but when you end up having an equal economy, it isn't exactly good either. Why would you opt to have an easier time holding it off without gaining an advantage than to hold it off in a more difficult way and end up (basically) winning the game.
It is why IdrA loses to these all-in strategies sometimes. He tries to manage with the absolute bare minimum, but when he holds it off, he almost always wins.
|
Wait, so now I'm supposed to continually pump drones? I thought the wise zerg player pumped drones when its safe, and pumped army when its not?
Look at my replay again. I have 2 queens, 4 zerglings, and 20 drones before I make any more army. That is the most I figure I can pump drones in that game without getting demolished, look at the timing on my spine crawler. I'm no pro, but damn did I hold off on my army production as long as possible. After I nullify the threat, I go back to powering drones and expand. Isn't this how everybody claims zerg is SUPPOSED to be played?
Then when he comes down with his next monstrous push, I had the army to crush him, then counter attack. He caught me in a bad position, killing 2/3 of it with basically 0 losses. This comes down to queen transfusion and how under appreciated it is. Look at the army values while he is in the middle of my expo. I hold him off with 1/2 the army and a crapload of transfusing, for the record, he had more stalkers than I had fighting units when he first walked into the base, not to mention the rest of his army. At this point I don't feel safe, so I continue to pump army.
Then, when I'm happy with my army size, I push out, expand again, and get ready to pump more drones.
The whole point is that I had no economic advantage, at one point I had a severely under-valued army and I had the power to maintain a strong defense while still being capable of some huge aggression when I see an opening (the game ending push).
Zerg does not need to FE in SC2, it is completely detrimental to the first 15 minutes of play.
|
And for the larva thing, I think T1 units are almost made to be run off 1 hatch. When you manage to beat down your larva count by spamming lings, you can beat down your economy by spaming roaches and upgrades. Quite the delicious balance IMO.
Your argument is that I should basically get 2 hatches so I can do nothing but spam non-upgraded zerglings.
|
Edit: If you're one basing, you don't have enough production capabilities to be able to just pump a lot of drones in one cycle and then pump a lot of army in another cycle. One basing Zergs don't take advantage of their superior production speed.
If you expand and scouted the 4 Gate (you never had vision of his base, you saw it when he moved out), you could have probably gotten away with pumping more drones and with double the production, be able to pump out a strong enough army with the right timing.
I don't mind the Queen usage, so I'm not going to argue about that. I don't know why you didn't feel safe. He made an expansion and just threw away his army. He was powering a lot of probes right when your push hit so he had a terrible army.
My whole point is that you could have had a better economy and you would have won in the long run macro game because he did an all-in. If you would do this style against a fast expand Protoss or Terran, you will be very very behind without anything to one base for.
I would like to see you do this same build, but against a fast expand Protoss or Terran or just a economy-focused one base strategy. I don't think Zerg units are strong enough in small numbers to do these early pushes and be effective. And your Queen won't be able to push their base because of their speed.
|
On August 06 2010 10:34 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 09:53 Spyridon wrote:
1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had. Yeah, the 1 base and Queens in the ZvZ are nothing new, I was mostly just pointing out that my opponent like many Zerg players out there think Queens are a 1 per hatchery unit, and they are much more useful than that. On the ZvP game, I think that is either criticizing him for not being pro, or just unfair in general. We both had lacking macro, that is why we're at the level we are at. Saying he should have more Immortals or Colossi is saying he should have gone 3 gate/robo. It took me 12 minutes to get a worker lead on him, so all things considered, I thought his macro was fine. I made his 4-gate push w/ proxy pylon look so ineffective he didn't even bother continuing to warp units in, then at the 15 min mark he ambushes the majority of my army, which I was in the middle of setting up to flank his next push. Then here's the important part from Zerg perspective. I hold off 19 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 immortals, and 3 sentries with 5 roaches, 8 hydras, 3 queens, 1 spine crawler and 7 more roaches that reinforce in the middle of the battle. Simple math says he had the advantage, but by putting LESS EMPHASIS ON EXPANSIONS, and incorporating Queens with transfuse, I can hold him back. By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
I'm not criticizing him for not being pro, just being honest. The first part of macro you learn is to always keep pumping probes, and to actually use your chrono-boost. He was not doing either. I'm not saying he didnt have PRO macro, I'm saying he did not have "adequate" macro. He was at an early enough stage that he didnt have loads of different things required for his macro and still got his energy up to around 50, and did not pump drones constantly in the opening minutes.
The only reason you werent ahead on drones was specifically becuase you 1-based. Against a Zerg on 1 base without a 2nd hatchery at least in your main, a Protoss player can actually out-Probe you.
Also, considering you went Roaches, if he scouted you he could have easily expanded and defended it, as Roaches are not powerful enough to fight Protoss off of creep until T2, especially in the positions you guys were in
Furthermore, I criticize his macro because he literally stopped teching at all for awhile, and formed a weak push for 8mins in to the game. I'm not even mainly a Protoss player and even I know that stopping teching/researching is a bad idea for them - w/ Chrono boost it's one of their strongest aspects.
Typical Protoss players (not even high ranked ones) can form a bad-ass timing push that far in to the game. But you will never see them do it with only warp-gate units that have absolutely no upgrades.
You even had higher tech units than him by that point with your Lair/Hydra den/Evo chamber. He seriously had only warp gates and a cybernetics core until 10 minutes in to the game.
He literally stopped making probes at 23 for I believe nearly 5 minutes - that's not even full saturation of his main.
He finally expanded to his natural, and he didnt do a single thing there for an entire 2 minutes after it finished.
If your 15 minutes in to the game, havent had any workers die to harassment, and havent even saturated your main as Protoss... sorry to say but that's just horrible macro at work. That's seriously like bronze to low silver macro.
So all I'm doing is being honest - against the majority of players (silver+) that strategy would not have worked that well.
I would love for 1-base 1-hatch Zerg to be more viable, as a Zerg player myself. But without a 2nd hatchery, its just a bad idea, especially vs Protoss. On 1 base they can dominate you on 1 hatch. Terran you can sometimes beat with 1 base 1 hatch, but it becomes more of an all-in based on Banelings, which do not work in every situation. Koreans rely on 1-base gameplay as much as possible, but even they quick expand vs a Protoss.
Hell even with ANY queen strat, it's just silly to have only 1 hatch. That's only 1 queen at a time.
So if you want to improve, I would suggest building a 2nd hatch in base at the least. That way you can keep up on Drones against a Protoss player and have increased overall production potential.
It's entirely possible that 1-base 2-hatch has viable uses that have not been discovered, considering the ease in defending them compared to where some of the maps naturals are located.
Finally, in response to your comments about fast expanding "being detrimental to the first 15 minutes of play"... that's just crazy talk. The only thing you have to watch out for is a nasty 6min-ish timing push. After that point it gives an advantage.
|
Rex and I played several games that night, one of which he walled off with a gate/forge/cannon and went for a FE on blistering sands.
I pumped drones a little bit harder while I knocked down his backdoor rocks, of course he had cannons there too.
I have to commend his build as FE protoss is even scarier because while it delays the 4-gate a bit, you can turn it into a 5 gate robo w/ colossus, and I am still scared to expand.
He made one critical mistake though and that's why I didn't post that particular replay. He let a ovie sit over the middle of his nexus while he was starting to poke out with his army. I pushed him back while building a nydus into his main, jumped into the nydus, killed his nexus, and jumped back out in my own base in time to crush his push after which I could expand.
While I definitely felt pretty pimp, I thought it might be embarassing for him.
FE protoss is very scary I think because gateway units are so strong and they can build a solid wall to nullify early pressure without me going for a baneling all in.
Terran doesn't really scare me though, as once I see that he's settling into his expo, I can throw mine up at any time, having extra queens and less hatcheries really takes the bite out of Terran harass.
I will post more replays after I play a few rounds in the morning.
|
2base is just more advanced than 1 base, why 1 base when u can 2 base?.???
|
For the record I'm diamond and rex is platinum, thanks for calling us bronze/silver level players though...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
