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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 06 2010 14:31 frankcrest wrote: 2base is just more advanced than 1 base, why 1 base when u can 2 base?.??? Totally the mentality of every zerg player in SC2 it seems. My answer would be because if you stay on 1 base, you can at least have an army when your opponent pushes in on you. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On August 06 2010 14:34 Jermstuddog wrote: Totally the mentality of every zerg player in SC2 it seems. My answer would be because if you stay on 1 base, you can at least have an army when your opponent pushes in on you. when u can, you should, when you cant really 2 base.. Like LT tvz | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On August 06 2010 14:32 Jermstuddog wrote: For the record I'm diamond and rex is platinum, thanks for calling us bronze/silver level players though... No offense, but I've never played against a Protoss player in those ranks that did not have any probes killed and still hasnt even saturated his main 15 mins in. Nor have I face one that stopped producing at 23 drones, stopped using Chrono boost, had no upgrades at all (no forge even), no units other than warp gate units, nothing aside from cybernetics core/warp gate, and that low of a population for the timing push 8 mins in to the game. If he's a platinum player, and if he's higher rank that you, the game you posted just does not do him justice. I thought you wanted to discuss how viable the strat is, but you are not being very accepting of criticism. Truth of the matter is, just by how the units are designed, Zerg has to outnumber their opponents - that's what they do. On 1 base 1 hatch Zerg, Protoss has a HUGE economic advantage, which in turn leads in to a huge advantage on units. The first lesson you hear everyone give new players (at least non-zerg ones) - "Never stop making workers!". To really know if the strategy works, you have to do it in a game where the opponent follows that rule. Because if your opponent does, he will have a HUGE economic advantage. You said if you stay on 1 base u can at least have an army when he pushes - but that only counts if you get attacked in the first 5 minutes of the game (which is rare). After that there is no advantage to staying on 1 base. You are greatly overestimating how long it takes to catch up on economy. One of the biggest mistakes for Zerg players is thinking "wow I should have pumped more units" when they dont have the economy to back it up. Sure, with that 300 mins you can have 4 more roaches or a queen and 2 roaches.... but what's that going to matter when your getting a fraction of your opponents income 8minutes in to the game, and even if you strictly pump units at that point you will have a smaller army? That's the only advice I have at this point, but if you dont want to take it, it's out of my hands. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I don't know if I can agree that 5 min pushes are rare in ZvP though. Something as simple as 5 or 7 zealots isn't an all in, but can put an extreme amount of pressure on a FE. I would say its quite common in my experience. All I can say in text is that if the push doesn't come from them to me, then I push on them when I feel my army is solid. There is obviously a lot that needs to be considered on when your army is a good size and what feels comfortable. I may work in an earlier expansion if I see no aggression on their end, but I still feel that those minerals spent on that early hatchery when you don't really need it can be felt long past the 8 min mark due to my army composition and any harassment that can very likely happen in that window. 16 drones can mine in 1 base with maximum efficiency, 4-5 more can fit with about 80% efficiency on the far mineral fields. That is 26 drones for a fully saturated main, you'd could have the same effect on 2 bases for about 23 drones? I, for now, will keep my drone and 300 minerals from the FE hatchery, spend that extra 100 on making 2 more, and feel much safer with my standing army. I really think it opens up a lot of options (which seems to be the biggest complaint in TvZ) and I was bringing the discussion here, with replays of my own in hopes that others might be bold enough to try some 1 base play and post about their experience, with replays in hand. Instead I have been shot down with text. I will go on doing my noob builds we'll see what happens from there. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
Also, I think the economic advantage of a second base is minimal, especially as you have to make at least 2 spine crawlers to hold of a push. I'd rather stay on 1 base with a decent army and grap complete map control. Having a bunch of speedzerglings keeping poking around a base is scary as hell, 1 mistake and I'm in the mineral line. Even if I don't do any damage (i.e. if the opponent is 1 basing aswell; easier to defend usually) I can put him in a defensive mindset, and may delay his pushes because he has to scout for backstabbing ling runbys when he leaves his base. I think people just copy Idra/Artosis play, for whichever reasons, but as seen in Idra vs Silver 0-2, even impeccable macro machines like Idra get severely punished for fast expanding every game. Becoming predicable is always bad, so I'd say 1 basing is very viable on the right map. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On August 06 2010 15:59 Jermstuddog wrote: Actually spyridon, I appreciate that post because it is pointing to the realistic problem of economy in the absence of a push. I don't know if I can agree that 5 min pushes are rare in ZvP though. Something as simple as 5 or 7 zealots isn't an all in, but can put an extreme amount of pressure on a FE. I would say its quite common in my experience. All I can say in text is that if the push doesn't come from them to me, then I push on them when I feel my army is solid. There is obviously a lot that needs to be considered on when your army is a good size and what feels comfortable. I may work in an earlier expansion if I see no aggression on their end, but I still feel that those minerals spent on that early hatchery when you don't really need it can be felt long past the 8 min mark due to my army composition and any harassment that can very likely happen in that window. 16 drones can mine in 1 base with maximum efficiency, 4-5 more can fit with about 80% efficiency on the far mineral fields. That is 26 drones for a fully saturated main, you'd could have the same effect on 2 bases for about 23 drones? I, for now, will keep my drone and 300 minerals from the FE hatchery, spend that extra 100 on making 2 more, and feel much safer with my standing army. I really think it opens up a lot of options (which seems to be the biggest complaint in TvZ) and I was bringing the discussion here, with replays of my own in hopes that others might be bold enough to try some 1 base play and post about their experience, with replays in hand. Instead I have been shot down with text. I will go on doing my noob builds we'll see what happens from there. With scouting, you can easily tell by if they go 2gate or core approximately when a push is coming, and save yourself the trouble of hoping a push comes. When it comes to 2-gate, sure the first units come before 5mins, but the typical response to 2-gate is Roaches. Before Roaches are out you are at a disadvantage, but as soon as Roaches are out you have the advantage until the enemy has Immortals - which is when it is the biggest advantage to expand safely. Because shortly after you will have a strong enough timing push to break you (assuming the Protoss kept up with their production). The way to beat 2-gate is to survive and then use the fact that they are a bit behind economically against them. You are giving up that advantage if you only have 1 hatch. As I said before, the hatch doesnt neccessarily have to be a FE, but 1 base just dont give you enough production to match both their economy and army, and Protoss units win in a head up fight - thats why Zerg is all about economic leads. If you see gate-core, you are safe enough to FE without worry, because there will not be any substantial amount of aggression. You can watch many pro vids (idra, artosis) of them fast expanding having literally just 1-2 Lings until the 6-7 minute mark, after which point they have a rediculous economy and pump out a bigger army than they would have had off of 1 base AND have a huge economic lead. On the topic of not needing a 2nd hatch until the 8min mark, this isnt true. 7-8 mins you could have a HUGE push at your door. That's the timing point of most of the most deadly timing pushes Protoss has. Your egg production will simply be too low to handle one of those. This is not to mention the fact that if you do a Roach opener, they can easily fast expand themselves - that's actually the strategy you should expect if they scout your warren. I apologize that I do not have any replays - I havent bothered doing this since release as I am completely comfortable with ZvP. But I tested this quite a bit back in Phase 2. I tried 1-base, I tried Queen strats, I tried 2-hatch. The above information was the result of the testing. The only one that seems to have some form of potential is 2-hatch in the main (on maps that have hard to defend naturals). If you take this as being "shot down with text", that will only be counter-productive. I'm only sharing the information I've gathered - just because I've found that there are many situations it does not work in does not mean I'm shooting you down. Nor does sharing the information that if it DOES work against someone who is on top of macro that you are safe to expand once your Roaches come out until the opponent gets Immortals. Neither are really shooting you down, they are telling you how you could improve your build. It only takes a short time to regain the resources spent on an expansion, and depending on what build you scout your opponent going you can tell exactly when you could fit it in. Your only hurting yourself if you dont do it at that point. The increased resources, increased egg production, being able to complete the hatchery without potential aggression, and long-term economy (which increases income and army size) make it more than worth it to do so. Also, one of the more upsetting things is your strat was based upon queens, when you can only make 1 queen per hatch. You would literally double the production of one of your key units if you even threw down a 2nd hatch in your main - which would more than make up for the little bit of resources you lose. It would be best if you didnt believe me either - just keep this in mind and test it for your self. That way you can see if there is any truth to it =) | ||
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