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I would like to submit some of my lower-diamond level replays and suggest more 1-base play from Zerg players.
I, like many others have struggled with my early game. 4-gate pushes, mass marines, thor pushes, and all the like have caused me many headaches because I just can't seem to defend myself... if only I had about 400 more minerals... then I realized how useless a FE is when I lose to all those relatively minor strategies.
I cannot fully saturate 1 base at that point in the game, why do I need a second?
Between Roaches, Banelings, Zerglings, Queens, and upgrading to Lair, I can balance my econ, tech, and army all off of one base. My army actually has some bite to it, and having 2 Queens on one base gives me plenty of energy for transfuse, not to mention Queens aren't exactly bad in combat.
The first game is PvZ, defending against 4-gate off basically 1 base with a fairly new expo. He gets a nice ambush off on about 1/2 my army in mid game and with the backup of my queens, I am STILL able to hold him off.
http://www.mediafire.com/?335dqt6q9tj3qr1
The second is a rather funky ZvZ I had, I noticed my opponent was going for a FE so I punished him, thinking the game was gonna be over that quick I went in for the kill, he punished me. At which point we basically completely skip all the baneling retardation and move straight into Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Lings and Queens on my end, but not his. I really should have lost that game, but Queens are just too awesome. I mostly include it for the ending, where a fellow Zerg player gets upset at my use of Queens. Let's change this mentality.
http://www.mediafire.com/?3f80gwlisz9a66n
In neither game do I expand quickly. In fact, I make it a point to connect to my FE with creep before I ever even lay a hatchery down.
Changing my opening play in this manner has allowed me to be more aggressive in early game and have a better army AND economy while I am transitioning to mid-game, those 300 min + drone I would have spent on a hatchery really are just a whole lot more useful when they're spent making a Roach Warren and a second Queen.
Thoughts? Replays? Try it out and see how it changes the early game for you, then let's discuss if FE really are necessary for Zerg in SC2.
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THanks for your post and replays! I'll be checking them out tonight forsure and I'm glad to see more people are adopting the 1 base play and not FE'ing asap as you do have a way better early game.
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1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had.
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1 Base ZvZ is the normal strategy so I ignored that replay. It seems like what you did was basically like an all-in push waiting to happen, but you just kind of sat there and eventually expanded. Against a fast expand Protoss or Terran, this strategy would fall behind quickly in economy. Maybe you should make another Hatchery in your main base and pump workers from it. But if you're going to make an extra hatchery, you might as well just put it in your natural and get a better economy.
You can 1 base as Zerg if you put an extra hatchery to keep up production, but there is no reason to not expand with the extra hatchery so 1 basing without all-in pushing is pointless.
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On August 06 2010 09:53 Spyridon wrote:
1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had.
Yeah, the 1 base and Queens in the ZvZ are nothing new, I was mostly just pointing out that my opponent like many Zerg players out there think Queens are a 1 per hatchery unit, and they are much more useful than that.
On the ZvP game, I think that is either criticizing him for not being pro, or just unfair in general. We both had lacking macro, that is why we're at the level we are at. Saying he should have more Immortals or Colossi is saying he should have gone 3 gate/robo.
It took me 12 minutes to get a worker lead on him, so all things considered, I thought his macro was fine. I made his 4-gate push w/ proxy pylon look so ineffective he didn't even bother continuing to warp units in, then at the 15 min mark he ambushes the majority of my army, which I was in the middle of setting up to flank his next push. Then here's the important part from Zerg perspective. I hold off 19 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 immortals, and 3 sentries with 5 roaches, 8 hydras, 3 queens, 1 spine crawler and 7 more roaches that reinforce in the middle of the battle. Simple math says he had the advantage, but by putting LESS EMPHASIS ON EXPANSIONS, and incorporating Queens with transfuse, I can hold him back.
By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
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well i've started expanding later, if that's what you mean. Spending those 300 minerals on hatchery that early is so useless, better to spend them on drones and your lategame won't suffer a bit -.-
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You don't need to saturate to make the second hatchery useful. You need the second hatchery for the larvae. Even if all you do is split your drones between the two bases, you improve your economy since the drones are all mining at 100% efficiency.
Not getting a second hatchery is gimping yourself in ZvT and ZvP. ZvZ is a completely different animal.
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In addition to what Fistdantilus says, you also really need the extra Gas as Zerg. Once you hit Lair you'll need to spend several hundreds in upgrades and tech structures.
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You really DON'T need the gas until you're well into T2. Put 6 drones on gas as soon as you're comfortable and leave them there. Gas is never an issue for me it's always minerals holding me back. I really don't know what you have to spend all that gas on in T1.
100 for ling speed, 100 for Lair, 150 for +1 carapace. All other gas can go to Roaches and Banelings.
Actually I have a better idea... post a replay where you have 2 extractors up and running and are stock-piling minerals due to larva and gas constraints. If you are making any zerglings at all this will be a non-issue.
I'm not saying gas isn't an issue at T2. I <3 my hydras, +2 carapace, ovie upgrades, speed upgrades, range upgrades, infestors, spire, mutas. Those are all very gas intensive. But the majority of my issues come up as I'm transitioning into T2, not when I've been there for a while.
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On August 06 2010 10:34 Jermstuddog wrote:
By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
You held off an all-in attack (4 Warpgate Rush) with your own all-in. You're staying competitive with the Protoss player that all-ins...that is not good. Fast Expand isn't necessary, but an extra hatchery for larva necessary is if you want to play standard to keep up worker production. And if you're going to put down an extra hatchery, it is just better to put it at your natural. It is pointless to put it in your main when you will expand fast anyway.
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For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
And how is living through an all-in a bad thing? Even if I only match the opponents economy, once his all-in fails, the game is still going on, and we all know what happens once Ultralisks come out. Zerg continuing the game by simply living and gaining no advantage, but not losing any ground is a very valid strategy and can end up winning games quite handily as you can expand faster and impose more map control once you've settled into the midgame, I don't see how living through a 4-gate is in any way a bad thing...
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On August 06 2010 11:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
11 drones on minerals are all it takes to constantly produce zerglings (or drones, in this case) and overlords with a queen constantly injecting. By the time the queen is out you will already have more than 11 drones on minerals. Sure, you can collect upgrades and find ways to spend the excess. But on 2 hatches you can spend 20+ drone income on more drones, then switch that now massive economy to power out units and upgrades. The production capability of 2 hatches quickly eclipses that one of hatch.
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On August 06 2010 11:47 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the larva argument, show me a game where larva is the issue and a queens is keeping spawn larva on a single hatchery the whole time. Larva is a non-issue for the early game as well.
And how is living through an all-in a bad thing? Even if I only match the opponents economy, once his all-in fails, the game is still going on, and we all know what happens once Ultralisks come out. Zerg continuing the game by simply living and gaining no advantage, but not losing any ground is a very valid strategy and can end up winning games quite handily as you can expand faster and impose more map control once you've settled into the midgame, I don't see how living through a 4-gate is in any way a bad thing...
Yeah, if you just make 24 drones and start massing an army, larva won't be an issue because you have a bad economy. But if you actually produce workers throughout the game like standard players do, you need more larva to support a bigger economy. You also need larva to produce workers in the first place.
Living through an all-in isn't a bad thing, but when you end up having an equal economy, it isn't exactly good either. Why would you opt to have an easier time holding it off without gaining an advantage than to hold it off in a more difficult way and end up (basically) winning the game.
It is why IdrA loses to these all-in strategies sometimes. He tries to manage with the absolute bare minimum, but when he holds it off, he almost always wins.
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Wait, so now I'm supposed to continually pump drones? I thought the wise zerg player pumped drones when its safe, and pumped army when its not?
Look at my replay again. I have 2 queens, 4 zerglings, and 20 drones before I make any more army. That is the most I figure I can pump drones in that game without getting demolished, look at the timing on my spine crawler. I'm no pro, but damn did I hold off on my army production as long as possible. After I nullify the threat, I go back to powering drones and expand. Isn't this how everybody claims zerg is SUPPOSED to be played?
Then when he comes down with his next monstrous push, I had the army to crush him, then counter attack. He caught me in a bad position, killing 2/3 of it with basically 0 losses. This comes down to queen transfusion and how under appreciated it is. Look at the army values while he is in the middle of my expo. I hold him off with 1/2 the army and a crapload of transfusing, for the record, he had more stalkers than I had fighting units when he first walked into the base, not to mention the rest of his army. At this point I don't feel safe, so I continue to pump army.
Then, when I'm happy with my army size, I push out, expand again, and get ready to pump more drones.
The whole point is that I had no economic advantage, at one point I had a severely under-valued army and I had the power to maintain a strong defense while still being capable of some huge aggression when I see an opening (the game ending push).
Zerg does not need to FE in SC2, it is completely detrimental to the first 15 minutes of play.
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And for the larva thing, I think T1 units are almost made to be run off 1 hatch. When you manage to beat down your larva count by spamming lings, you can beat down your economy by spaming roaches and upgrades. Quite the delicious balance IMO.
Your argument is that I should basically get 2 hatches so I can do nothing but spam non-upgraded zerglings.
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Edit: If you're one basing, you don't have enough production capabilities to be able to just pump a lot of drones in one cycle and then pump a lot of army in another cycle. One basing Zergs don't take advantage of their superior production speed.
If you expand and scouted the 4 Gate (you never had vision of his base, you saw it when he moved out), you could have probably gotten away with pumping more drones and with double the production, be able to pump out a strong enough army with the right timing.
I don't mind the Queen usage, so I'm not going to argue about that. I don't know why you didn't feel safe. He made an expansion and just threw away his army. He was powering a lot of probes right when your push hit so he had a terrible army.
My whole point is that you could have had a better economy and you would have won in the long run macro game because he did an all-in. If you would do this style against a fast expand Protoss or Terran, you will be very very behind without anything to one base for.
I would like to see you do this same build, but against a fast expand Protoss or Terran or just a economy-focused one base strategy. I don't think Zerg units are strong enough in small numbers to do these early pushes and be effective. And your Queen won't be able to push their base because of their speed.
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On August 06 2010 10:34 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 09:53 Spyridon wrote:
1-base in ZvZ isnt to strange, its been proven viable by Zelniq and Day9.
In the ZvP game, to be honest the P player has very weak macro. I dont think that would work against a competent P player. By that point of the game he should have had more than a couple immortals, and a much better economy, or a much better timing push. And for sure should have had Colossi or HT with the amount of Hydras you had. Yeah, the 1 base and Queens in the ZvZ are nothing new, I was mostly just pointing out that my opponent like many Zerg players out there think Queens are a 1 per hatchery unit, and they are much more useful than that. On the ZvP game, I think that is either criticizing him for not being pro, or just unfair in general. We both had lacking macro, that is why we're at the level we are at. Saying he should have more Immortals or Colossi is saying he should have gone 3 gate/robo. It took me 12 minutes to get a worker lead on him, so all things considered, I thought his macro was fine. I made his 4-gate push w/ proxy pylon look so ineffective he didn't even bother continuing to warp units in, then at the 15 min mark he ambushes the majority of my army, which I was in the middle of setting up to flank his next push. Then here's the important part from Zerg perspective. I hold off 19 stalkers, 8 zealots, 2 immortals, and 3 sentries with 5 roaches, 8 hydras, 3 queens, 1 spine crawler and 7 more roaches that reinforce in the middle of the battle. Simple math says he had the advantage, but by putting LESS EMPHASIS ON EXPANSIONS, and incorporating Queens with transfuse, I can hold him back. By focusing on army production and being passive, I can hold back your very typical 4-gate while still staying competitive in econ with my protoss opponent. Yes he could have played better, but so could I. I'm just trying to bring up the point that FE is by no means a necessity in ZvP, or in ZvT for that matter, I'll link a replay for ZvT when I get a decent one.
I'm not criticizing him for not being pro, just being honest. The first part of macro you learn is to always keep pumping probes, and to actually use your chrono-boost. He was not doing either. I'm not saying he didnt have PRO macro, I'm saying he did not have "adequate" macro. He was at an early enough stage that he didnt have loads of different things required for his macro and still got his energy up to around 50, and did not pump drones constantly in the opening minutes.
The only reason you werent ahead on drones was specifically becuase you 1-based. Against a Zerg on 1 base without a 2nd hatchery at least in your main, a Protoss player can actually out-Probe you.
Also, considering you went Roaches, if he scouted you he could have easily expanded and defended it, as Roaches are not powerful enough to fight Protoss off of creep until T2, especially in the positions you guys were in
Furthermore, I criticize his macro because he literally stopped teching at all for awhile, and formed a weak push for 8mins in to the game. I'm not even mainly a Protoss player and even I know that stopping teching/researching is a bad idea for them - w/ Chrono boost it's one of their strongest aspects.
Typical Protoss players (not even high ranked ones) can form a bad-ass timing push that far in to the game. But you will never see them do it with only warp-gate units that have absolutely no upgrades.
You even had higher tech units than him by that point with your Lair/Hydra den/Evo chamber. He seriously had only warp gates and a cybernetics core until 10 minutes in to the game.
He literally stopped making probes at 23 for I believe nearly 5 minutes - that's not even full saturation of his main.
He finally expanded to his natural, and he didnt do a single thing there for an entire 2 minutes after it finished.
If your 15 minutes in to the game, havent had any workers die to harassment, and havent even saturated your main as Protoss... sorry to say but that's just horrible macro at work. That's seriously like bronze to low silver macro.
So all I'm doing is being honest - against the majority of players (silver+) that strategy would not have worked that well.
I would love for 1-base 1-hatch Zerg to be more viable, as a Zerg player myself. But without a 2nd hatchery, its just a bad idea, especially vs Protoss. On 1 base they can dominate you on 1 hatch. Terran you can sometimes beat with 1 base 1 hatch, but it becomes more of an all-in based on Banelings, which do not work in every situation. Koreans rely on 1-base gameplay as much as possible, but even they quick expand vs a Protoss.
Hell even with ANY queen strat, it's just silly to have only 1 hatch. That's only 1 queen at a time.
So if you want to improve, I would suggest building a 2nd hatch in base at the least. That way you can keep up on Drones against a Protoss player and have increased overall production potential.
It's entirely possible that 1-base 2-hatch has viable uses that have not been discovered, considering the ease in defending them compared to where some of the maps naturals are located.
Finally, in response to your comments about fast expanding "being detrimental to the first 15 minutes of play"... that's just crazy talk. The only thing you have to watch out for is a nasty 6min-ish timing push. After that point it gives an advantage.
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Rex and I played several games that night, one of which he walled off with a gate/forge/cannon and went for a FE on blistering sands.
I pumped drones a little bit harder while I knocked down his backdoor rocks, of course he had cannons there too.
I have to commend his build as FE protoss is even scarier because while it delays the 4-gate a bit, you can turn it into a 5 gate robo w/ colossus, and I am still scared to expand.
He made one critical mistake though and that's why I didn't post that particular replay. He let a ovie sit over the middle of his nexus while he was starting to poke out with his army. I pushed him back while building a nydus into his main, jumped into the nydus, killed his nexus, and jumped back out in my own base in time to crush his push after which I could expand.
While I definitely felt pretty pimp, I thought it might be embarassing for him.
FE protoss is very scary I think because gateway units are so strong and they can build a solid wall to nullify early pressure without me going for a baneling all in.
Terran doesn't really scare me though, as once I see that he's settling into his expo, I can throw mine up at any time, having extra queens and less hatcheries really takes the bite out of Terran harass.
I will post more replays after I play a few rounds in the morning.
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2base is just more advanced than 1 base, why 1 base when u can 2 base?.???
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For the record I'm diamond and rex is platinum, thanks for calling us bronze/silver level players though...
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On August 06 2010 14:31 frankcrest wrote:
2base is just more advanced than 1 base, why 1 base when u can 2 base?.???
Totally the mentality of every zerg player in SC2 it seems.
My answer would be because if you stay on 1 base, you can at least have an army when your opponent pushes in on you.
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as i saw many Asian zergs go for 1 base opening in some situations, then expand all over the place. I have Sen and Check in mind, it could be a coincidence, but most of the games i saw were 1 base openers
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On August 06 2010 14:34 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:31 frankcrest wrote:
2base is just more advanced than 1 base, why 1 base when u can 2 base?.??? Totally the mentality of every zerg player in SC2 it seems. My answer would be because if you stay on 1 base, you can at least have an army when your opponent pushes in on you.
when u can, you should, when you cant really 2 base.. Like LT tvz
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On August 06 2010 14:32 Jermstuddog wrote:
For the record I'm diamond and rex is platinum, thanks for calling us bronze/silver level players though...
No offense, but I've never played against a Protoss player in those ranks that did not have any probes killed and still hasnt even saturated his main 15 mins in. Nor have I face one that stopped producing at 23 drones, stopped using Chrono boost, had no upgrades at all (no forge even), no units other than warp gate units, nothing aside from cybernetics core/warp gate, and that low of a population for the timing push 8 mins in to the game.
If he's a platinum player, and if he's higher rank that you, the game you posted just does not do him justice.
I thought you wanted to discuss how viable the strat is, but you are not being very accepting of criticism.
Truth of the matter is, just by how the units are designed, Zerg has to outnumber their opponents - that's what they do. On 1 base 1 hatch Zerg, Protoss has a HUGE economic advantage, which in turn leads in to a huge advantage on units.
The first lesson you hear everyone give new players (at least non-zerg ones) - "Never stop making workers!". To really know if the strategy works, you have to do it in a game where the opponent follows that rule. Because if your opponent does, he will have a HUGE economic advantage.
You said if you stay on 1 base u can at least have an army when he pushes - but that only counts if you get attacked in the first 5 minutes of the game (which is rare). After that there is no advantage to staying on 1 base. You are greatly overestimating how long it takes to catch up on economy.
One of the biggest mistakes for Zerg players is thinking "wow I should have pumped more units" when they dont have the economy to back it up. Sure, with that 300 mins you can have 4 more roaches or a queen and 2 roaches.... but what's that going to matter when your getting a fraction of your opponents income 8minutes in to the game, and even if you strictly pump units at that point you will have a smaller army?
That's the only advice I have at this point, but if you dont want to take it, it's out of my hands.
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The 4 gate push is not that hard to hold off with a FE, just put down at least 3-4 spines and spam speedlings, while teching for lair and get hydras, that's how I deal with it anyway.
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Actually spyridon, I appreciate that post because it is pointing to the realistic problem of economy in the absence of a push.
I don't know if I can agree that 5 min pushes are rare in ZvP though. Something as simple as 5 or 7 zealots isn't an all in, but can put an extreme amount of pressure on a FE. I would say its quite common in my experience.
All I can say in text is that if the push doesn't come from them to me, then I push on them when I feel my army is solid. There is obviously a lot that needs to be considered on when your army is a good size and what feels comfortable.
I may work in an earlier expansion if I see no aggression on their end, but I still feel that those minerals spent on that early hatchery when you don't really need it can be felt long past the 8 min mark due to my army composition and any harassment that can very likely happen in that window.
16 drones can mine in 1 base with maximum efficiency, 4-5 more can fit with about 80% efficiency on the far mineral fields. That is 26 drones for a fully saturated main, you'd could have the same effect on 2 bases for about 23 drones? I, for now, will keep my drone and 300 minerals from the FE hatchery, spend that extra 100 on making 2 more, and feel much safer with my standing army.
I really think it opens up a lot of options (which seems to be the biggest complaint in TvZ) and I was bringing the discussion here, with replays of my own in hopes that others might be bold enough to try some 1 base play and post about their experience, with replays in hand.
Instead I have been shot down with text.
I will go on doing my noob builds we'll see what happens from there.
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I actually think that 1 basing zerg is undervalued aswell in EU/US servers. I wouldn't do it on all maps, but on maps like kulas ravine, where you have tons of ways to pressure I think aggressive 1 base is much better than expanding to a basically undefendable natural expansion.
Also, I think the economic advantage of a second base is minimal, especially as you have to make at least 2 spine crawlers to hold of a push. I'd rather stay on 1 base with a decent army and grap complete map control. Having a bunch of speedzerglings keeping poking around a base is scary as hell, 1 mistake and I'm in the mineral line. Even if I don't do any damage (i.e. if the opponent is 1 basing aswell; easier to defend usually) I can put him in a defensive mindset, and may delay his pushes because he has to scout for backstabbing ling runbys when he leaves his base.
I think people just copy Idra/Artosis play, for whichever reasons, but as seen in Idra vs Silver 0-2, even impeccable macro machines like Idra get severely punished for fast expanding every game.
Becoming predicable is always bad, so I'd say 1 basing is very viable on the right map.
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On August 06 2010 15:59 Jermstuddog wrote:
Actually spyridon, I appreciate that post because it is pointing to the realistic problem of economy in the absence of a push.
I don't know if I can agree that 5 min pushes are rare in ZvP though. Something as simple as 5 or 7 zealots isn't an all in, but can put an extreme amount of pressure on a FE. I would say its quite common in my experience.
All I can say in text is that if the push doesn't come from them to me, then I push on them when I feel my army is solid. There is obviously a lot that needs to be considered on when your army is a good size and what feels comfortable.
I may work in an earlier expansion if I see no aggression on their end, but I still feel that those minerals spent on that early hatchery when you don't really need it can be felt long past the 8 min mark due to my army composition and any harassment that can very likely happen in that window.
16 drones can mine in 1 base with maximum efficiency, 4-5 more can fit with about 80% efficiency on the far mineral fields. That is 26 drones for a fully saturated main, you'd could have the same effect on 2 bases for about 23 drones? I, for now, will keep my drone and 300 minerals from the FE hatchery, spend that extra 100 on making 2 more, and feel much safer with my standing army.
I really think it opens up a lot of options (which seems to be the biggest complaint in TvZ) and I was bringing the discussion here, with replays of my own in hopes that others might be bold enough to try some 1 base play and post about their experience, with replays in hand.
Instead I have been shot down with text.
I will go on doing my noob builds we'll see what happens from there.
With scouting, you can easily tell by if they go 2gate or core approximately when a push is coming, and save yourself the trouble of hoping a push comes.
When it comes to 2-gate, sure the first units come before 5mins, but the typical response to 2-gate is Roaches. Before Roaches are out you are at a disadvantage, but as soon as Roaches are out you have the advantage until the enemy has Immortals - which is when it is the biggest advantage to expand safely. Because shortly after you will have a strong enough timing push to break you (assuming the Protoss kept up with their production).
The way to beat 2-gate is to survive and then use the fact that they are a bit behind economically against them. You are giving up that advantage if you only have 1 hatch. As I said before, the hatch doesnt neccessarily have to be a FE, but 1 base just dont give you enough production to match both their economy and army, and Protoss units win in a head up fight - thats why Zerg is all about economic leads.
If you see gate-core, you are safe enough to FE without worry, because there will not be any substantial amount of aggression. You can watch many pro vids (idra, artosis) of them fast expanding having literally just 1-2 Lings until the 6-7 minute mark, after which point they have a rediculous economy and pump out a bigger army than they would have had off of 1 base AND have a huge economic lead.
On the topic of not needing a 2nd hatch until the 8min mark, this isnt true. 7-8 mins you could have a HUGE push at your door. That's the timing point of most of the most deadly timing pushes Protoss has. Your egg production will simply be too low to handle one of those. This is not to mention the fact that if you do a Roach opener, they can easily fast expand themselves - that's actually the strategy you should expect if they scout your warren.
I apologize that I do not have any replays - I havent bothered doing this since release as I am completely comfortable with ZvP. But I tested this quite a bit back in Phase 2. I tried 1-base, I tried Queen strats, I tried 2-hatch. The above information was the result of the testing. The only one that seems to have some form of potential is 2-hatch in the main (on maps that have hard to defend naturals).
If you take this as being "shot down with text", that will only be counter-productive. I'm only sharing the information I've gathered - just because I've found that there are many situations it does not work in does not mean I'm shooting you down. Nor does sharing the information that if it DOES work against someone who is on top of macro that you are safe to expand once your Roaches come out until the opponent gets Immortals. Neither are really shooting you down, they are telling you how you could improve your build.
It only takes a short time to regain the resources spent on an expansion, and depending on what build you scout your opponent going you can tell exactly when you could fit it in. Your only hurting yourself if you dont do it at that point. The increased resources, increased egg production, being able to complete the hatchery without potential aggression, and long-term economy (which increases income and army size) make it more than worth it to do so. Also, one of the more upsetting things is your strat was based upon queens, when you can only make 1 queen per hatch. You would literally double the production of one of your key units if you even threw down a 2nd hatch in your main - which would more than make up for the little bit of resources you lose.
It would be best if you didnt believe me either - just keep this in mind and test it for your self. That way you can see if there is any truth to it =)
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EPT
