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I have lost to this one time, even after knowing about it from watching gretorp lose to it on stream once.
A description of what I am talking about:
Protoss does a up-in-your-face pylon, and you can see it even, right in your base, and you have gone 12 rax.
They then build a gateway, and then a forge, and chrono boost zealots right there in your main, while building their first cannon also right there in your main, as far in to your base as they feel it is safe to build it.
What do you do here? There seems to be no cost effective or good way to stop this even knowing that it is possible pre-game and seeing them build the pylon during the game.
You cannot pull scvs to kill the pylon because
a) you will not kill the pylon in time, so they will always get their gateway warped in and they will rebuild pylons
b) you lose mining time
all right, fine. But you have no early marine/reaper, as you 12 raxed, and you now are forced to not go tech lab add-on, because if you do their first zealot will be out and basically get free scv kills (45 HP scvs hello).
Now you have a situation where once your barracks is completed you have a marine being produced that is finished as their zealot is around 3/4 finished from being chrono boosted, and you no longer can afford to use scvs your marine to attack their buildings, as the zealot is going to do damage, which let's their cannon warp in.
So...what the fuck!? What is the most efficient counter to this assuming you have gone a 12 rax, not a 8-10 rax reaper.
Obviously a 8-10 rax reaper is a pure build order win vs this protoss build, so just keep in mind this is for when you go 12 rax, which is a standard economy build.
Have other Terran or players figured out a cost efficient way to deal with this in-your-face proxy forge/gate/cannon/zeal while going 12 rax? Or have those games resulted mainly in losses?
edit: bunkers let you survive, but they do not let you win, they just make your loss take longer @_@ lol (cannons out-range bunkers). And no, floating to an island or another base is not a "viable counter" to this build.
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Zurich15366 Posts
This screams for a replay. Please post the replay so people can five you advice.
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This is only viable on 2p maps. 10 rax reaper is quite good against P on steppes, oasis and blistering sands. As you said, it defeats this strategy easily.
conclusion: open every PvT on 2p maps with 10rax reaper. Its a good build anyway, barely sacs any econ for decent pressure.
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On April 26 2010 04:25 zatic wrote:
This screams for a replay. Please post the replay so people can five you advice.
all right, lemme go through my replay folder to find it  will post back in a few
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As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
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On April 26 2010 04:25 zatic wrote:
This screams for a replay. Please post the replay so people can five you advice.
Ok, here is the replay, I am sure other players are wondering wtf to do too 
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2340
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On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote:
As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that.
You are just in survival mode.
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On April 26 2010 04:26 m3rciless wrote:
This is only viable on 2p maps. 10 rax reaper is quite good against P on steppes, oasis and blistering sands. As you said, it defeats this strategy easily.
conclusion: open every PvT on 2p maps with 10rax reaper. Its a good build anyway, barely sacs any econ for decent pressure.
READ OP! Did you guys decide to not read the original post and post your cure-all build order fixes?
I am talking about countering it assuming you have gone 12 rax, of course 8-10 rax reaper counters it build order wise.
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On April 26 2010 04:36 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote:
As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead. Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that. You are just in survival mode.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
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On April 26 2010 04:37 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:36 avilo wrote:On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote:
As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead. Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that. You are just in survival mode. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
Reading is fundamental here. Are you just trolling? If you don't have anything to add to the strategy discussion then stop posting *facepalms*
just to reiterate, this is talking 12 rax versus proxy forge/gate/cannon/zealot in-your-face.
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if you scout him making the pylon, kill the probe (i.e try not to let him build a gateway)
if you scout him making the gateway, kill the gateway.
never atk pylons because they can be rebuilt. gateways building zlots can't rly be rebuilt. same goes for cannons
drag all scvs and atk gateways and use scv/marine to surround the zlot.
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On April 26 2010 04:37 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:36 avilo wrote:On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote:
As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead. Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that. You are just in survival mode. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
If you're maphacking this is optimal, however if you're a legit player you wont be able to know what he is going for and might be going for the more economical build that is 12rax. You can't just start doing 10rax every game just because of one strategy that beats the other build especially if there might be some way to counter it easily that you just aren't aware of.
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Sorry, I'm not trolling. I imagine you're going to be very behind if you go 12 rax vs. that proxy, which is why people are telling not to go 12 rax on short/mid distance 2 player maps (steppes, blistering) particularly if a 10rax variant puts you at even. Isn't it the same as asking how to counter a reaper rush after going 14 nexus? Or someone asking how to counter your imagined counter to their proxy forge/gateway?
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take 2-3 scvs and chase down the probe, continue building as planned and drop 1-2 bunkers by your cc.
as much as i am for taking 8-10 scvs to kill the gateway i honestly feel you can get away with just bunkering it down BUT aside from the micro that is required it's good that you do things like not create a wall block (getting your barracks/supply depot sniped because they aren't in range of bunkers.
tbh protoss players at lower levels do this more often because obviously it takes more skill to defend against it. if you die, don't worry just get over it and watch the replay and see how many mistakes you make. e.g. forgetting to build marines, building placement, micro etc..
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Nony was actually the one who I first saw use it - he uses it quite a bit I think on steppes and blistering sands and any toss with good APM will not let his probe die.
If the OP is asking how to do damage control, I suppose a bunker that covers your gas/partial min line while hitting his gateway would be optimal. Try to delay cannons as much as possible with micro while rushing reapers to hit his main base? Hope someone else comes up with something better. ^^
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My thinking is that you should throw up a bunker in range of everything asap, and then make sure you get marines into it. Pull scvs to repair that sucker and try to get another production structure up, maybe even proxied in the middle of the map. If you can get a hellion or reaper into their minline you can shut down their economy as well and make sure they have no followup.
Unfortunately I haven't experienced this cheese yet, but I'm going to go do some testing on it asap since you are hardly the first person I've seen complain about it.
Edit:
Ok watched rep. You do several horribly incorrect things:
You had scvs running around too much, I think at a point I saw 2 chasing the probe which wasn't even trying to attack your rax building scv.
You didn't pull scvs to attack the pylon until the gate was DONE. Kill it as soon as the gate is started. You don't need a lot of money, just enough for marines.
Your bunker placement wasn't that bad actually. I think you just need to pull scvs much much faster and you'll be fine.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
Had someone try that on the rush-friendly magma map.
I just pulled all SCVs to kill the gateway.
I agree with other posters: Don't go for the pylon. They are cheap and be re-build fast.
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If you see a probe build a proxy pylon in your face you should be able to kill it by pulling scvs.
Pull enough SCVs to get a surround on the pylon and attack it while it's building. It'll still get completed but it should die pretty much as soon as it completes. Yes, the probe can just build another one but that sets them back 100 minerals + time it takes to build a second pylon. In addition, it buys you time to get marines and possibly a bunker up.
Also, you can kill cannons before they even finish building with just SCVs if you pull enough. In addition, in a marine v. zealot battle the marine should win because marine movespeed > zealot movespeed and marine is ranged. Once you build a bunker you should be pretty safe.
An in-your-face proxy NEVER works for me. Only time I get away with a proxy, forge or gateway, is when they don't scout it in time.
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On April 26 2010 05:40 Floophead_III wrote:
My thinking is that you should throw up a bunker in range of everything asap, and then make sure you get marines into it. Pull scvs to repair that sucker and try to get another production structure up, maybe even proxied in the middle of the map. If you can get a hellion or reaper into their minline you can shut down their economy as well and make sure they have no followup.
Unfortunately I haven't experienced this cheese yet, but I'm going to go do some testing on it asap since you are hardly the first person I've seen complain about it.
Edit:
Ok watched rep. You do several horribly incorrect things:
You had scvs running around too much, I think at a point I saw 2 chasing the probe which wasn't even trying to attack your rax building scv.
You didn't pull scvs to attack the pylon until the gate was DONE. Kill it as soon as the gate is started. You don't need a lot of money, just enough for marines.
Your bunker placement wasn't that bad actually. I think you just need to pull scvs much much faster and you'll be fine.
I do not think you can kill the gateway before it finishes and chronoboosts a zealot out 
edit: I will try that though just to check next time.
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Just watched some of Nony's "Phoenix" replay pack and he does this vs Diaspora. As a terran, it's fairly unsettling. Hasn't happened to me yet, though... but I am in the low leagues at the moment.
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EPT
