I have lost to this one time, even after knowing about it from watching gretorp lose to it on stream once.
A description of what I am talking about: Protoss does a up-in-your-face pylon, and you can see it even, right in your base, and you have gone 12 rax.
They then build a gateway, and then a forge, and chrono boost zealots right there in your main, while building their first cannon also right there in your main, as far in to your base as they feel it is safe to build it.
What do you do here? There seems to be no cost effective or good way to stop this even knowing that it is possible pre-game and seeing them build the pylon during the game.
You cannot pull scvs to kill the pylon because a) you will not kill the pylon in time, so they will always get their gateway warped in and they will rebuild pylons b) you lose mining time
all right, fine. But you have no early marine/reaper, as you 12 raxed, and you now are forced to not go tech lab add-on, because if you do their first zealot will be out and basically get free scv kills (45 HP scvs hello).
Now you have a situation where once your barracks is completed you have a marine being produced that is finished as their zealot is around 3/4 finished from being chrono boosted, and you no longer can afford to use scvs your marine to attack their buildings, as the zealot is going to do damage, which let's their cannon warp in.
So...what the fuck!? What is the most efficient counter to this assuming you have gone a 12 rax, not a 8-10 rax reaper.
Obviously a 8-10 rax reaper is a pure build order win vs this protoss build, so just keep in mind this is for when you go 12 rax, which is a standard economy build.
Have other Terran or players figured out a cost efficient way to deal with this in-your-face proxy forge/gate/cannon/zeal while going 12 rax? Or have those games resulted mainly in losses?
edit: bunkers let you survive, but they do not let you win, they just make your loss take longer @_@ lol (cannons out-range bunkers). And no, floating to an island or another base is not a "viable counter" to this build.
This is only viable on 2p maps. 10 rax reaper is quite good against P on steppes, oasis and blistering sands. As you said, it defeats this strategy easily.
conclusion: open every PvT on 2p maps with 10rax reaper. Its a good build anyway, barely sacs any econ for decent pressure.
As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote: As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that.
On April 26 2010 04:26 m3rciless wrote: This is only viable on 2p maps. 10 rax reaper is quite good against P on steppes, oasis and blistering sands. As you said, it defeats this strategy easily.
conclusion: open every PvT on 2p maps with 10rax reaper. Its a good build anyway, barely sacs any econ for decent pressure.
READ OP! Did you guys decide to not read the original post and post your cure-all build order fixes?
I am talking about countering it assuming you have gone 12 rax, of course 8-10 rax reaper counters it build order wise.
On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote: As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that.
You are just in survival mode.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote: As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that.
You are just in survival mode.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
Reading is fundamental here. Are you just trolling? If you don't have anything to add to the strategy discussion then stop posting *facepalms*
just to reiterate, this is talking 12 rax versus proxy forge/gate/cannon/zealot in-your-face.
if you scout him making the pylon, kill the probe (i.e try not to let him build a gateway) if you scout him making the gateway, kill the gateway. never atk pylons because they can be rebuilt. gateways building zlots can't rly be rebuilt. same goes for cannons drag all scvs and atk gateways and use scv/marine to surround the zlot.
On April 26 2010 04:33 Hold-Lurker wrote: As m3rciless said, I've just been going early in-base (not proxy) reaper on any 1 player map where this might happen - if you get just 1-2 probe kills, I think you're even due to orbital command. More than 2 should put you ahead.
Read the original post. This is talking 12 rax. You will not be able to get out a reaper going 12 rax vs this. And if you do, you are going to lose 3+ scvs to the first zealot and the cannon will be up, and they have a multitude of options after that.
You are just in survival mode.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - I'm telling you to go earlier rax.
If you're maphacking this is optimal, however if you're a legit player you wont be able to know what he is going for and might be going for the more economical build that is 12rax. You can't just start doing 10rax every game just because of one strategy that beats the other build especially if there might be some way to counter it easily that you just aren't aware of.
Sorry, I'm not trolling. I imagine you're going to be very behind if you go 12 rax vs. that proxy, which is why people are telling not to go 12 rax on short/mid distance 2 player maps (steppes, blistering) particularly if a 10rax variant puts you at even. Isn't it the same as asking how to counter a reaper rush after going 14 nexus? Or someone asking how to counter your imagined counter to their proxy forge/gateway?
take 2-3 scvs and chase down the probe, continue building as planned and drop 1-2 bunkers by your cc.
as much as i am for taking 8-10 scvs to kill the gateway i honestly feel you can get away with just bunkering it down BUT aside from the micro that is required it's good that you do things like not create a wall block (getting your barracks/supply depot sniped because they aren't in range of bunkers.
tbh protoss players at lower levels do this more often because obviously it takes more skill to defend against it. if you die, don't worry just get over it and watch the replay and see how many mistakes you make. e.g. forgetting to build marines, building placement, micro etc..
Nony was actually the one who I first saw use it - he uses it quite a bit I think on steppes and blistering sands and any toss with good APM will not let his probe die.
If the OP is asking how to do damage control, I suppose a bunker that covers your gas/partial min line while hitting his gateway would be optimal. Try to delay cannons as much as possible with micro while rushing reapers to hit his main base? Hope someone else comes up with something better. ^^
My thinking is that you should throw up a bunker in range of everything asap, and then make sure you get marines into it. Pull scvs to repair that sucker and try to get another production structure up, maybe even proxied in the middle of the map. If you can get a hellion or reaper into their minline you can shut down their economy as well and make sure they have no followup.
Unfortunately I haven't experienced this cheese yet, but I'm going to go do some testing on it asap since you are hardly the first person I've seen complain about it.
Edit:
Ok watched rep. You do several horribly incorrect things:
You had scvs running around too much, I think at a point I saw 2 chasing the probe which wasn't even trying to attack your rax building scv.
You didn't pull scvs to attack the pylon until the gate was DONE. Kill it as soon as the gate is started. You don't need a lot of money, just enough for marines.
Your bunker placement wasn't that bad actually. I think you just need to pull scvs much much faster and you'll be fine.
If you see a probe build a proxy pylon in your face you should be able to kill it by pulling scvs.
Pull enough SCVs to get a surround on the pylon and attack it while it's building. It'll still get completed but it should die pretty much as soon as it completes. Yes, the probe can just build another one but that sets them back 100 minerals + time it takes to build a second pylon. In addition, it buys you time to get marines and possibly a bunker up.
Also, you can kill cannons before they even finish building with just SCVs if you pull enough. In addition, in a marine v. zealot battle the marine should win because marine movespeed > zealot movespeed and marine is ranged. Once you build a bunker you should be pretty safe.
An in-your-face proxy NEVER works for me. Only time I get away with a proxy, forge or gateway, is when they don't scout it in time.
On April 26 2010 05:40 Floophead_III wrote: My thinking is that you should throw up a bunker in range of everything asap, and then make sure you get marines into it. Pull scvs to repair that sucker and try to get another production structure up, maybe even proxied in the middle of the map. If you can get a hellion or reaper into their minline you can shut down their economy as well and make sure they have no followup.
Unfortunately I haven't experienced this cheese yet, but I'm going to go do some testing on it asap since you are hardly the first person I've seen complain about it.
Edit:
Ok watched rep. You do several horribly incorrect things:
You had scvs running around too much, I think at a point I saw 2 chasing the probe which wasn't even trying to attack your rax building scv.
You didn't pull scvs to attack the pylon until the gate was DONE. Kill it as soon as the gate is started. You don't need a lot of money, just enough for marines.
Your bunker placement wasn't that bad actually. I think you just need to pull scvs much much faster and you'll be fine.
I do not think you can kill the gateway before it finishes and chronoboosts a zealot out edit: I will try that though just to check next time.
Just watched some of Nony's "Phoenix" replay pack and he does this vs Diaspora. As a terran, it's fairly unsettling. Hasn't happened to me yet, though... but I am in the low leagues at the moment.
I don't know, pulling 8-10 scvs to kill a 100mineral pylon or a 150 mineral gateway never seemed particularly efficient to me- you're crippling yourself a lot, and with chrono boost, there's a good chance he'll get a zealot out before the first gateway is destroyed either way. Sending 1-2 marines to his base or building bunkers in your mineral line might be a better option.
if you scout him making the pylon, kill the probe (i.e try not to let him build a gateway) if you scout him making the gateway, kill the gateway. never atk pylons because they can be rebuilt. gateways building zlots can't rly be rebuilt. same goes for cannons drag all scvs and atk gateways and use scv/marine to surround the zlot.
You can't kill his probe with any amount of SCV's lol.
On April 26 2010 05:40 Floophead_III wrote: My thinking is that you should throw up a bunker in range of everything asap, and then make sure you get marines into it. Pull scvs to repair that sucker and try to get another production structure up, maybe even proxied in the middle of the map. If you can get a hellion or reaper into their minline you can shut down their economy as well and make sure they have no followup.
Unfortunately I haven't experienced this cheese yet, but I'm going to go do some testing on it asap since you are hardly the first person I've seen complain about it.
Edit:
Ok watched rep. You do several horribly incorrect things:
You had scvs running around too much, I think at a point I saw 2 chasing the probe which wasn't even trying to attack your rax building scv.
You didn't pull scvs to attack the pylon until the gate was DONE. Kill it as soon as the gate is started. You don't need a lot of money, just enough for marines.
Your bunker placement wasn't that bad actually. I think you just need to pull scvs much much faster and you'll be fine.
I do not think you can kill the gateway before it finishes and chronoboosts a zealot out edit: I will try that though just to check next time.
Don't go for the gateway. Go for pylons. This will both supply block him if he manages to ever get a pylon up, as well as keep him from making cannons or using his gateway. It doesn't matter if it hurts your eco because you're keeping him from doing anything while you get more and more tech out.
As soon as you see the pylon in your face, do everything it takes to kill that probe. There's no reason he should be able to build anything else, you can kill the probe quick and then leave the pylon sit around for a while as your marine finishes.
A much better cheese for P is slowly cannoning in from outside of your visible range. If he already has a cannon inside your base you're hosed.
On April 26 2010 09:22 ghen wrote: As soon as you see the pylon in your face, do everything it takes to kill that probe. There's no reason he should be able to build anything else, you can kill the probe quick and then leave the pylon sit around for a while as your marine finishes.
A much better cheese for P is slowly cannoning in from outside of your visible range. If he already has a cannon inside your base you're hosed.
Wrong. You can't kill the probe don't try. Kill the pylon as it finishes and just go about your build. Once you've started your barracks you're free to pull as many scvs as you need to to keep him from finishing buildings.
its really easy to stop, i tested this strat out with my friend and i could stop it every time after about 5 games.... what you have to do is send 6 scvs to attack the gateway, if you do this it will die before the zealot finishes, and 3 scvs go attack any cannon. As soon as your first marine finishes, send it after the probe, dont let the probe get close to the buildings and warp more crap in. The hardest thing about this build is if he builds against the edge of the map, like on steppes of war, then 6 scvs wont be able to attack the building if he builds properly, in this case you just need to make a bunker and 2 rax pump marines and just make sure you do not lose scvs stupidly vs the zealot, and make sure you attack the cannons with scvs RIGHT AWAY when he starts building them... this rush really cannot win once you know how to defend it properly, if you really want to learn how to stop it, you should play some games vs a protoss friend until you can stop it every time
I've done this to fairly decent terrans, and the ones who fend it off, pulls next too all scv to take down gateway before zealot gets out. From there you might lose max 2-3 scv on killing a cannon that is about to spawn as gateway goes down.
I wouldnt go for pylons as the probe will just keep warping in new ones.
Someone just did this to me in Gold, and I had a fairly easy time microing a SCV around the probe to get in the path of whatever it was going to build. Combining this with taking 5-6 scvs off the line for gateway killing if he goes gateway first might work. I'm not entirely certain, as it requires some pretty stupid micro to chase a goddamn probe properly to keep it from warping shit in.
Probes do tend to take a split second before warp-ins, however.
floop, you can't go for the pylon, they rebuild them x2. The zealot will get out and you lose mining time.
That is why this tactic is such a headache!!!! You cannot go for the pylon, because the gate will finish, which then lets the zealot finish.
You cannot go for the gate (well, maybe you can?) because you lose so much mining time to kill a 150 building and they also have a forge+another gate going up.
and if you decide to not pull SCVS, well, then you have to bunker and it's going to get cannoned/zealoted, and you die, so you cannot do that either..
People are saying don't go for the pylon because they can warp more in. While that is true you must not forget that pylons are crucial in both powering their buildings and providing supply.
In the case of a cannon rush it's more beneficial to go after the cannons, as the Protoss won't need supply and because cannons fall faster to SCVs. However, in a gateway rush, going after a pylon is probably your best option. Not only are they easier to kill than gateways, they also provide power to the gateways and supply. Without adequate supply the Protoss cannot pump more zealots and will easily die.
Well pylons are only 200/200 as opposed to 300/300 in BW. However, you may be correct in saying you should go for the gateway, but if you are going to go for the gateway you need to do it as soon as it starts warping in. Put 4 scv on it and that should do the trick.
The first 4 pulled SCVs and tried attacking my pylons or gateway in various efforts. They all failed eventually.
The last one remained cool and pulled no SCVs. He made a barracks when he saw my pylon going up, and then calmly made a bunker. That kept him safe. It continued for a bit with me getting a few cannons, but he was also able to get up additional barracks and tech labs. I ultimately got a few cannons down in a critical spot that could hit his buildings, but he just lifted, sat down at his expansion, and won the game. I couldn't do anything with the cannons I made. He could have also just sent a unit or two to my base this entire time (something I was expecting) to make it worse.
The moral of the story is; don't overreact to the horror pylon by pulling SCVs. Just play normally and get a bunker and comfortably win.
It dragged on for a little bit because I was able to get a forge and cannon going, but I knew I
On April 26 2010 10:04 Floophead_III wrote: Well pylons are only 200/200 as opposed to 300/300 in BW. However, you may be correct in saying you should go for the gateway, but if you are going to go for the gateway you need to do it as soon as it starts warping in. Put 4 scv on it and that should do the trick.
It is indeed right to go for the gateways and not the pylons. Protoss has more than enough minerals to put down as many pylons as he wants (I mean, he's building cannons AND zealots, he can skip a cannon and make another pylon easy), and you'll never supply block a toss who's cutting probes anyways. As for how to kill the gateway, I forget the exact number but you should have it attacked by roughly 3 scv's while it's warping in and 5 once it's finished. If you attack with 5 right away the protoss can cancel his gateway and you're behind on mining time too much. Cannons die to 3-4 scv's as well.
I usually leave one scv following the probe around so the toss has to spend his APM keeping it alive. Proxy gate/cannon like that is hard to hold off because it requires you to click fast make crucial decisions while doing so, while the toss is taking it easy. Anything you do that forces toss to use his APM is good. If you have enough minerals to afford a bunker (preferably near his gateway) then great!
Just keep in mind that while you do lose mining time, the protoss will lose a probe 2 pylons a forge a cannon a zealot and a gateway (or at least he'll lose alot). And he'll be stuck with rebuilding his tech too. Just worry about surviving the proxy, you won't be as far behind as you think.
Honestly, the best advice anyone can give is to simply just not panic, build a well-positioned bunker and you'll be fine.
If I see a Terran panic and sends an ungodly number of SCVs to kill my pylon I'll just cancel at the last moment possible and I'll usually still have time to go 10 pylon 10/11 gate so I really won't be that behind due to all the mining time the Terran lost by pulling so many SCVs.
On April 26 2010 10:13 ExileStrife wrote: I tried this against about 5 terran players.
The first 4 pulled SCVs and tried attacking my pylons or gateway in various efforts. They all failed eventually.
The last one remained cool and pulled no SCVs. He made a barracks when he saw my pylon going up, and then calmly made a bunker. That kept him safe. It continued for a bit with me getting a few cannons, but he was also able to get up additional barracks and tech labs. I ultimately got a few cannons down in a critical spot that could hit his buildings, but he just lifted, sat down at his expansion, and won the game. I couldn't do anything with the cannons I made. He could have also just sent a unit or two to my base this entire time (something I was expecting) to make it worse.
The moral of the story is; don't overreact to the horror pylon by pulling SCVs. Just play normally and get a bunker and comfortably win.
It dragged on for a little bit because I was able to get a forge and cannon going, but I knew I
By "this" do you mean a proxy 13 gate or a proxy 10 gate? I think I agree you can defend solely with a bunker against a 13 gate since your rax should be completed slightly before the gateway, but I don't see how you'll get a 12 rax up in time to be able to complete a bunker (which requires a barracks) before the first zealot pops. I suppose you could try to micro your marines/scv's until the bunker completes but you'll still just be fighting 1 rax vs 1 gateway, while you're pulling scv's. Usually that ends up costing me the game =(
On April 26 2010 09:59 avilo wrote: floop, you can't go for the pylon, they rebuild them x2. The zealot will get out and you lose mining time.
That is why this tactic is such a headache!!!! You cannot go for the pylon, because the gate will finish, which then lets the zealot finish.
You cannot go for the gate (well, maybe you can?) because you lose so much mining time to kill a 150 building and they also have a forge+another gate going up.
and if you decide to not pull SCVS, well, then you have to bunker and it's going to get cannoned/zealoted, and you die, so you cannot do that either..
You lose mining time to kill the gate, but then your marine is out which means the probe dies and the 2nd gateway dies faster. If he's spamming pylons, his 2nd gate will be heavily delayed, just as much as your tech is delayed from losing mining time.
I'd really like to see a high level replay where the terran attacks the gateway first. So far all i've seen is Nony doing it vs far worse players who attack the pylon.
When a probe early comes into your base, chase it with one SCV. When you see the proxy pylon, stop SCV production and make a barrack (and reproduce SCVs). Before the 1st chrono-zealot spawn: You have enough time to make a bunker and repulse or kill the drone with your first marine. It's good to kill the pylon because you will kill the probe too.
On April 26 2010 09:49 awu25 wrote: if he parks a probe by your rax, wouldn't you go and attack to force it to move?
If you do that, your own units will be in the way, and if you then press the hotkey for building an addon, your own units will move away, but his probe can return.
Anyway, it's obviously not easy to block an addon perfectly (tho you could pylon it if you want), but it's an additional annoyance.
to anyone wondering how effective this is, watch NonY's replay pack posted in the replays thread. He does it to most of the terran players he plays against, and wins all of them.
This is my match versus Nony. I know the build is defendable. However I'm posting it just so people see how difficult it is to fend off. It just takes practicing against this exact build and extremely precise micro. For those who say "Go for the pylon!" It doesn't work if you've seen the replay. It's really the gateway that needs to die. The bunker CANNOT protect everything. So placement of the bunker needs to protect as much as you can. Even in the replay I don't think I could've placed the bunker better. If anything I didn't burn the gateway down and lost to many units due to imperfect micro.
All in all it's a build that Terran needs to practice to beat, I highly doubt most people can fend against it the first time they step against it. (I certainly couldn't)
Ive seen this done to one of the streamers here on TL, he did defend against it with bunkers and insanely good micro, however in the end he just lost too much to harass to catch back up economically, so he did lose.
Not sure what to do vs this to be honest, at best it seems like you can do damage control and pray your opponent slips up with his teching/production at his normal base (ie he doesnt focus 100% on his proxy) but aside from that .. gl.
The protoss wants you to pull all your scvs when this happens. Right click attack ONE scv on the probe and remain calm. Build a bunker as close to the pylon as possible, as to cover everything. Pull an scv to repair when needed, 2-4 if things get heavy. As your bunker fills do not be afraid to build a second one if needed, remember you can salvage these later. Again, bunker positioning is extremely important, put them straight in the toss' face. I've built as many as 3 bunkers to deal with a persistent toss before.
I think I know what I'd do as T but I'm gonna hold off on saying anything until I can see it work. The Protoss basically has a response to everything that the Terran can try to do, but if the Terran starts to do one thing and then does another, it can kinda be tricky. Toss has to make a million little decisions based on the T's responses and I think there is a combo of things Terran can do to catch Toss off guard
i agree, there isnt enough time to be able to kill the gateway with an scv as well as keep a good economy i guess just keep an scv patrolling around the perimeter of your base, youll still lose mineral mining time but youll be able to save yourself from early zealots
I've had this happen to me on scrap station a few times where it's impossible to wall off too quickly and it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to come out ahead. Even if you survive they will likely be able to kill more than enough scvs to make up for the small econ hit they took for proxy'ing you.
(In my experience on scrap station the proxy was done in the area between your nat and your main that you don't see when you head straight to your opponent's main.)
I mean even if you scout it and get a 2nd rax immediately and pump marines the first 3 zeals can get a few scvs. Then he can pylon in your main and start warping in cannons which is hard to deal with when he has 5 zealots so quickly and you are barely surviving with a bunker+marines.
On April 26 2010 10:45 faction123 wrote: I'd really like to see a high level replay where the terran attacks the gateway first. So far all i've seen is Nony doing it vs far worse players who attack the pylon.
Platinum level @ oasis Do not go for the pylon; it'll just turn into the doomgate build in BW. Bunkers are okay, but you need at least 2 of them and hope he doesn't cannon you. Imo, the optimal way to do it on large maps is to kill the gateways. On smaller maps, I'd consider lifting off to another expansion and ignoring his proxy b/c you can counter him faster.
The best way I found to counter this is to first not freak out.
I get one scv to attack the probe and one to attack the pylon once it starts warping in. Continue to get a marine asap and get a bunker set up as well asap in range of his buildings. Hopefully you will kill the probe, or have a near dead pylon, or a bunker with a rine tucked in I found this the greatest way to survive and keep youre economy up.
Sometimes you might have to rush all youre scvs over to finish off the pylon, but the cost of pylon plus the gate thats underpowered is more cost to the protoss then to you taking scvs off the minerals for a second
On April 26 2010 22:31 Yaros wrote: I don't know for sure, but couldn't this rush be countered with a reaper rush?
Yeah, we've established that. A reaper rush will kill this attack without issue. But going 12 rax isn't a reaper rush, which is the point of this thread.
The protoss has 35 APM, lose the probe vs SCVs, chrono boost an empty gate while not canceling a zealot in the other dying gate and it's on desert oasis which has a very long distance between bases.
I had this happen to me today and finally managed to take my own base back by building a factory with tech lab and making a siege tank. I killed the 2 or 3 pylons first, disabling his 5 cannons and 2 gateways. Counterpushed, but he switched to DT's and raped me anyways
On April 26 2010 11:28 Diaspora wrote: This is my match versus Nony. I know the build is defendable. However I'm posting it just so people see how difficult it is to fend off. It just takes practicing against this exact build and extremely precise micro. For those who say "Go for the pylon!" It doesn't work if you've seen the replay. It's really the gateway that needs to die. The bunker CANNOT protect everything. So placement of the bunker needs to protect as much as you can. Even in the replay I don't think I could've placed the bunker better. If anything I didn't burn the gateway down and lost to many units due to imperfect micro.
All in all it's a build that Terran needs to practice to beat, I highly doubt most people can fend against it the first time they step against it. (I certainly couldn't)
EDIT: Didnt realize someone posted the replay already, Oh well.
yah, seems like just practicing vs it is good, though it is a wtf strong build that is stupid+insane that they literally can just make a pylon vs your 12 rax in your base, in your face, and get away with it. Just lol.
When a probe early comes into your base, chase it with one SCV. When you see the proxy pylon, stop SCV production and make a barrack (and reproduce SCVs). Before the 1st chrono-zealot spawn: You have enough time to make a bunker and repulse or kill the drone with your first marine. It's good to kill the pylon because you will kill the probe too.
On a smaller map, it would be more difficult.
Did you read the thread at all or did you come in assuming no one tried that?
On April 26 2010 12:25 Liquid`NonY wrote: I think I know what I'd do as T but I'm gonna hold off on saying anything until I can see it work. The Protoss basically has a response to everything that the Terran can try to do, but if the Terran starts to do one thing and then does another, it can kinda be tricky. Toss has to make a million little decisions based on the T's responses and I think there is a combo of things Terran can do to catch Toss off guard
lol, the good ol "I have a sweet secret super duper counter and am a top level player but I do not want to share my information in the strat forums!" good one nony!
but yah, I am thinking the best response now is to completely and utterly ignore it, proxy a rax outside your main, get reapers, and go kill all their probes, and evac all your SCVS from your main and take another base for an advanage. Otherwise, just seems just takes a fucking insane amount of effort for the little required on the toss's part @_@.
On April 26 2010 13:02 Jonoman92 wrote: I've had this happen to me on scrap station a few times where it's impossible to wall off too quickly and it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to come out ahead. Even if you survive they will likely be able to kill more than enough scvs to make up for the small econ hit they took for proxy'ing you.
(In my experience on scrap station the proxy was done in the area between your nat and your main that you don't see when you head straight to your opponent's main.)
I mean even if you scout it and get a 2nd rax immediately and pump marines the first 3 zeals can get a few scvs. Then he can pylon in your main and start warping in cannons which is hard to deal with when he has 5 zealots so quickly and you are barely surviving with a bunker+marines.
yeh, it is pretty impossible to be ahead at all. This build way worse than SC1 proxy gates, where you would be about even, or slightly behind, or slightly ahead from them doing it and you stopping it. But here, FORTY FIVE HP SCVS, and the chronoboost make you WAAAAY behind, even if you stop it.
I think the non-existent strategy help that Nony was alluding to, was proxying a rax outside of your main the instant that we see they are doing this tactic, and then going reapers from there on offense.
that is the only thing I can think of that would ideally put you ahead or on even footing in a very scrambly game afterwards.
so...they proxy the gate in your face, once you see, immediately proxy a rax with scouting scv or another scv somewhere outside ur base, or float a rax out. Then tech lab it and go for reapers while stalling any damage to your SCV line in your main.
with your first rax, bunker/marine, and hold while you go do damage to their main. Here is where the little decisions and scouting information the toss has to do come in as nony said.
If they do not scout the outside rax, you basically are going to kill all their probes with 1-3 reapers, and then you move your base, for freewin.
If they do know what you are doing, then they will have to make tight little decisions on whether to place their first cannon in your base or at their base, which in itself, should allow you to accumulate reapers outside of your base and from there you either decide to bring them back to your main to help, or harrass them.
seems very difficult either way for such a stupid easy build toss can do.
On April 27 2010 00:13 Fujitsi wrote: I had this happen to me today and finally managed to take my own base back by building a factory with tech lab and making a siege tank. I killed the 2 or 3 pylons first, disabling his 5 cannons and 2 gateways. Counterpushed, but he switched to DT's and raped me anyways
This is not going to work if you are playing someone executing the build well like nony does. edit: well, it might be possible to defend absolutely perfectly till a tank, but you are going to lose marines/scvs all along the way, and then lose anyways.
When you scout the proxy gates you have 2 choices. You can either try and kill his gateways with most of your scvs (difficult if you scout it late) or you can rush to reaper and attack his base. If you don't think you can kill the gateways fast enough before a zealot comes out then I would go for the fast reaper. Definetly do not attack pylons though, that never works unless you magically killed his probe
I'd say maybe drop a bunker somewhere right in his pylon field. Based on the timing i'm assuming from your description, you should at least be able to get 2 marines out by the time the gateway/forge finishes while teching to marauder. This means you can get protected marines constantly attacking his buildings while you keep pumping marines. If he manages to get a cannon up, send scv's to repair the bunker and micro them away if the scv's start getting focus fired. If he makes zealots and goes for your mineral line, pull the marines out of the bunker. From my thinking eventually you can get more bunkers up and just force the proxy out and then you're ahead. Since bunkers are basically free this shouldn't set you back very far, so once the proxy is gone, collect all those minerals and pump a few more marine/marauder
if the player is good, he wont let you kill his probe so dont bother unless he hands it to you. it takes ~4 scv's to kill a pylon or canon soon after it starts to warp in, try 5 if you spot it a little later. at that point you have to pull in 8-10 scv's or lose. make sure you stop mining gas. if you have the time/resource, you can try bunkering his proxy and do the scv's switcharoo.
a lot of people who proxy gate/forge lock their pylon at the edge of a cliff so you cant get next to it, this is really hard for the terran, there is not much to do. you can pull all your scv's to kill the gateway and lose to something else later, pull just some of the probes, and lose to zealot/canon.
here's an idea that i have not tested. just continue your build to reapers, bunker your command center to slow zealot harass and eventually lift to avoid canons, kill the protoss's main base with reapers, then float your command center to a natural or high yield. while he takes your original main base, hold map control with reapers.
On April 27 2010 00:41 puril wrote: if the player is good, he wont let you kill his probe so dont bother unless he hands it to you. it takes ~4 scv's to kill a pylon or canon soon after it starts to warp in, try 5 if you spot it a little later. at that point you have to pull in 8-10 scv's or lose. make sure you stop mining gas. if you have the time/resource, you can try bunkering his proxy and do the scv's switcharoo.
a lot of people who proxy gate/forge lock their pylon at the edge of a cliff so you cant get next to it, this is really hard for the terran, there is not much to do. you can pull all your scv's to kill the gateway and lose to something else later, pull just some of the probes, and lose to zealot/canon.
here's an idea that i have not tested. just continue your build to reapers, bunker your command center to slow zealot harass and eventually lift to avoid canons, kill the protoss's main base with reapers, then float your command center to a natural or high yield. while he takes your original main base, hold map control with reapers.
do people not read posts anymore lol. I said that like three posts ago.
Essentially when I go scout the zerg, if i see a drone leaving the base and i know i can beat him there, I'll block his early expo for the longest time, It does work... que up little triangles for him to run around so he stays alive...
What if you pulled 3 SCV's, put 1 to chase the probe, 2 to Guard the pylon energy circle, Essentially, the idea would be to use the other 2 to block the probes attempt to gateway, and even if you needed to use two more SCV's to block, Losing 5 SCV's from production to ensure his proxy would fail should be worth it. You could put 1 in top area zone, bottom, left, right, and QUE run them around... plus you have the one chasing his probe, so you'll see if he tries to reproxy anywhere, and won't get surprised.
That would be safer then trying to kill the pylon, (provided the blocking works), because he could get his gateway and rebuild a pylon afterward. and Much more eco friendly then pulling all your SCV's to kill off his crap... which is never a good idea.. ever.. If he gives up, he's gotta build his base over in his main, setting him behind a bit, and a few reapers should be able to rip him apart unless hes got well placed cannons.
It's theory, I'd have to put this to the test, I think I could hold this off with 3 SCV's, which would set him back a lot more then it would me, You would have to be very quick with reactions and know how to micro well...
I can't wait for it to happen to me, to really see how viable this would be, Ideas?
On April 27 2010 00:55 Xursian wrote: Essentially when I go scout the zerg, if i see a drone leaving the base and i know i can beat him there, I'll block his early expo for the longest time, It does work... que up little triangles for him to run around so he stays alive...
What if you pulled 3 SCV's, put 1 to chase the probe, 2 to Guard the pylon energy circle, Essentially, the idea would be to use the other 2 to block the probes attempt to gateway, and even if you needed to use two more SCV's to block, Losing 5 SCV's from production to ensure his proxy would fail should be worth it. You could put 1 in top area zone, bottom, left, right, and QUE run them around... plus you have the one chasing his probe, so you'll see if he tries to reproxy anywhere, and won't get surprised.
That would be safer then trying to kill the pylon, (provided the blocking works), because he could get his gateway and rebuild a pylon afterward. and Much more eco friendly then pulling all your SCV's to kill off his crap... which is never a good idea.. ever.. If he gives up, he's gotta build his base over in his main, setting him behind a bit, and a few reapers should be able to rip him apart unless hes got well placed cannons.
It's theory, I'd have to put this to the test, I think I could hold this off with 3 SCV's, which would set him back a lot more then it would me, You would have to be very quick with reactions and know how to micro well...
I can't wait for it to happen to me, to really see how viable this would be, Ideas?
I think you need to play the game more if you are seriously "trying to block pylon energy circles." lol. You were kidding right?
best bet so far is an out of base tech labbed rax for reapers it seems.
i do this in my placement matches to get games over quick... just make a bunker and repair it and you win. don't bother pulling scv unless you know you can kill the probe as the P loses less money than you would. If you kill the probe it's gg. If the bunker goes up it's gg. Just make sure your rax is in a spot that you can get marines int he bunker w/ out dying.
edit: By place a bunker i mean place it next to the gateway/pylon. that way no matter if he sends zealots to your scv his shit is getting shut down. use 1 marine in the bunker and the rest to defend your scv... if he pulls zealots back to ur bunker help it.. common sense
When a probe early comes into your base, chase it with one SCV. When you see the proxy pylon, stop SCV production and make a barrack (and reproduce SCVs). Before the 1st chrono-zealot spawn: You have enough time to make a bunker and repulse or kill the drone with your first marine. It's good to kill the pylon because you will kill the probe too.
On a smaller map, it would be more difficult.
Did you read the thread at all or did you come in assuming no one tried that?
I have watched your replay and read the thread. Please re-read my answer and re-watch your replay.
I again think this has alot to do with the maps and spawn positions, if your gas is like to the exit of your base you can get a nice rax/depot placement with a choke were you can make a bunker in or micro a bite and struggle on. Its defenatly not easy but you got a chance here.
If you spawn crapy though like on insonlator in the bottom there is like almost nothing you can do imo, I lost vs White-ra today when he 2x gated me and you cant kill the pylon cause the gates block it. I nearly had perfect reply for as far as my knowledge goes imo I did outmicro him, got my bunker up and even a fac later but your going to lose so much money its almost impossible to stop the 2x stalker chrono boosted. I beaten him before by going to his main with the first helion but this time he had a pylon/core block up so its basicly gg from there.
On a more serious note, I had this happen to me on a 2v2 on twilight fortress match. Two toss tried to cannon rush us and my partner left early. (I had a 11 rax i believe, so it's not exactly a 12 rax, but the logic applies). I'm not gonna talk about zealot proxies since I haven't had much experience with them. But against a cannon rush it's not so difficult provided you're smart and don't throw away scvs/marines in a blind panic to kill the cannons.
You should try to get an orbital command up if you can. This allows mules to be called down, therefore freeing up some scvs to fight without hurting your econ too much. Also, in order to rush you so quickly, you can bet that the toss player is very low on worker count. Cannons being a static defense, it's hard for the other player to mount a considerable defense of his own. If you can, try to ignore his cannons as much as possible (float your CC if you need to) and go for a base race. If possible, a factory with siege tanks will really help out.
The point is to not lose your head upon seeing the cannon rush, especially if you are terran, since most of your buildings are mobile. Obviously, the same can't really be applied to a gateway/zeal rush.
I would upload a replay, but i have to get to class now.
i had this happen to me yesterday on Kulas Ravine. which isnt even a 2 player map.
everything he says is perfectly accurate. clearly a earlier than 12 rax rapes this build, but to play safe like that can put you behind if they dont proxy which is rare.
Who says 12 rax is viable vs cheese? Kind of like a 13-14 gate is vulnerable to cheese, as is a 14 pool (though not as much). I 10 gate every game against zerg and do fine because of zealot harass - 10 rax is same principle against P. I think the answer is obvious and in front of your face (10 rax), it's the unwillingness to accept solutions that involve a bit of risk, even against strategies that themselves involve risk, that creates whiny-ness which in turn results in bad patches.
If barraks hasn't been built yet u could build it Where his pylon power would be, then with a few scvs u could block the areas in which he could build a gateway. I don't even think u would need that many, u could also throw down another supply if u got the dough.
Would this work?
U could even try lifting the cc and landing it within his to-be pylon power. Do a little distance mining, shouldn't be too far if it's inyoface
On April 27 2010 05:04 4Servy wrote: how the heck you reach siege tanks vs a double proxy gate or a gate/cannon attack?
Assuming that you've gotta your refinery while your barracks was building, it's not too difficult as long as you don't panic and pull your scvs off gas and your base isn't too compact. Cannon pushes are very slow. to get a tank it's just 225 gas, which isn't that much. To get siege tech it will be 125 gas(100 for the research and 25 for the addon). Unless you let him cannon close enough that he can hit your refinery, that's only 350 gas. As long as you have a few marines&scvs making sure the cannons aren't coming too fast, it isn't too difficult. (You'll suffer loses of course, but assuming the toss player commits to the cheese, he won't have anything to deal with the tanks)
On April 27 2010 05:09 TFlame wrote: Who says 12 rax is viable vs cheese? Kind of like a 13-14 gate is vulnerable to cheese, as is a 14 pool (though not as much). I 10 gate every game against zerg and do fine because of zealot harass - 10 rax is same principle against P. I think the answer is obvious and in front of your face (10 rax), it's the unwillingness to accept solutions that involve a bit of risk, even against strategies that themselves involve risk, that creates whiny-ness which in turn results in bad patches.
Read the original post! Everyone already knows 8-10 rax reaper will crush something like this if protoss does it. That is not what the damn discussion is about.
Saying, "oh, open blindly 8-10 rax reaper every game is the counter to a strat" is ridiculous. People are discussing how to best deal with it if you go 12 rax, which is pretty much the standard. 8-10 rax is a blind build order win/loss. No one cares about that, it happens. We want the best way to counter this build with a 12 rax.
Saying, "oh go 8-10 rax" does not help the discussion at all.
Here is a 12-13 rax replay of a proxy gate/cannon getting beat. I watched it happen to my roommate last night.
My friend has a lot of experience trying to counter builds like this because he told me he couldn't beat proxies and so I did them to him for a bunch of games and also did them against terrans on Bnet so we could figure out the most effective counter.
My friend is a top 8 platinum player. D+ ICCup, etc. 140apm
if your rax finishes before or around the same time as his gateway finishes.. throw down 2 or 3 bunkers while ur marine is buildling.. he can't stop all 3... .. recycle the ones u don't use... if he builds cannon.. 3 scvs take down a cannon just as it finishes warping in... don't overestimate how much money he is spending on doing this.. he only has as much money as you do so while u lose mining time by pulling scvs off your minerals, he loses minerals by losing buildings... also.. i would sick an scv on the probe permanantly.. keep him running it around.. who knows, if your opponent is incompetent he won't have enough apm and could lose the probe or "sarcrifice" apm for probe micro...
this isn't an impossible to beat strategy at all and its pretty much an all-in for the protoss... its hard but not impossible.. kind of like orb's kryptonite... 8-rax reaper rush.. etc.. not impossible at all.
On April 27 2010 06:42 givemefive wrote: Here is a 12-13 rax replay of a proxy gate/cannon getting beat. I watched it happen to my roommate last night.
My friend has a lot of experience trying to counter builds like this because he told me he couldn't beat proxies and so I did them to him for a bunch of games and also did them against terrans on Bnet so we could figure out the most effective counter.
My friend is a top 8 platinum player. D+ ICCup, etc. 140apm
Is 12 rax standard? I was under the impression that 11 rax is standard.
I know you want to 12 rax and are looking for ways to defend this with a 12 rax, but you can't be so close minded. It's like complaining that you can't beat lurkers if you have late detection in SC1.
Haven't read all the replies so apologize if this is redundant, not gonna go through 5 pages for something so simple.
Looks like you haven't done your homework! Check the range on the units and buildings involved, motivates you to get gas earlier for marauders, which you had plenty of time to do. Otherwise, you did great. You were fine after you killed his gateway as long as you got some gas to go with it.
And yes kill that first pylon with 4 SCVs or more. It sets him back quite a bit, and in this case, would have at least bought you a lot more room. Good luck.
I would love to try and defend against this while using the 12 rax build. I usually do 12 barracks as this allows me not to cut scv's while getting all the early buildings and sending 1 scout after the first supply depot.
So far I can only theorycraft.
The question is, when does the first pylon come up. I imagine he is sending the probe at once, like for the 6rax reaper rush, which means pylon can be started at about ~50% of my first supply finished (depends on the map distance). At that point I have 9 scvs and the supply depot half done, an scv on the way.
Decisions, decisions. I could cancel the scv and rax right there, or I could wait and get the 10th scv and rax then. Sure the probe will be harassing, but that we can micro around. It becomes a 10 rax build, and I could then adapt from there? I hope some protoss in the copper division are reading and I will see this come up against me soon
On a map with a close natural could you just let him tower up while you bunker your nat and then lift off and not waste any mining time except what you loose from transferring the command center?
On April 27 2010 06:42 givemefive wrote: Here is a 12-13 rax replay of a proxy gate/cannon getting beat. I watched it happen to my roommate last night.
My friend has a lot of experience trying to counter builds like this because he told me he couldn't beat proxies and so I did them to him for a bunch of games and also did them against terrans on Bnet so we could figure out the most effective counter.
My friend is a top 8 platinum player. D+ ICCup, etc. 140apm
Is 12 rax standard? I was under the impression that 11 rax is standard.
I know you want to 12 rax and are looking for ways to defend this with a 12 rax, but you can't be so close minded. It's like complaining that you can't beat lurkers if you have late detection in SC1.
EPT
will post back in a few
