On April 27 2010 00:41 puril wrote: if the player is good, he wont let you kill his probe so dont bother unless he hands it to you. it takes ~4 scv's to kill a pylon or canon soon after it starts to warp in, try 5 if you spot it a little later. at that point you have to pull in 8-10 scv's or lose. make sure you stop mining gas. if you have the time/resource, you can try bunkering his proxy and do the scv's switcharoo.
a lot of people who proxy gate/forge lock their pylon at the edge of a cliff so you cant get next to it, this is really hard for the terran, there is not much to do. you can pull all your scv's to kill the gateway and lose to something else later, pull just some of the probes, and lose to zealot/canon.
here's an idea that i have not tested. just continue your build to reapers, bunker your command center to slow zealot harass and eventually lift to avoid canons, kill the protoss's main base with reapers, then float your command center to a natural or high yield. while he takes your original main base, hold map control with reapers.
do people not read posts anymore lol. I said that like three posts ago.
Essentially when I go scout the zerg, if i see a drone leaving the base and i know i can beat him there, I'll block his early expo for the longest time, It does work... que up little triangles for him to run around so he stays alive...
What if you pulled 3 SCV's, put 1 to chase the probe, 2 to Guard the pylon energy circle, Essentially, the idea would be to use the other 2 to block the probes attempt to gateway, and even if you needed to use two more SCV's to block, Losing 5 SCV's from production to ensure his proxy would fail should be worth it. You could put 1 in top area zone, bottom, left, right, and QUE run them around... plus you have the one chasing his probe, so you'll see if he tries to reproxy anywhere, and won't get surprised.
That would be safer then trying to kill the pylon, (provided the blocking works), because he could get his gateway and rebuild a pylon afterward. and Much more eco friendly then pulling all your SCV's to kill off his crap... which is never a good idea.. ever.. If he gives up, he's gotta build his base over in his main, setting him behind a bit, and a few reapers should be able to rip him apart unless hes got well placed cannons.
It's theory, I'd have to put this to the test, I think I could hold this off with 3 SCV's, which would set him back a lot more then it would me, You would have to be very quick with reactions and know how to micro well...
I can't wait for it to happen to me, to really see how viable this would be, Ideas?
On April 27 2010 00:55 Xursian wrote: Essentially when I go scout the zerg, if i see a drone leaving the base and i know i can beat him there, I'll block his early expo for the longest time, It does work... que up little triangles for him to run around so he stays alive...
What if you pulled 3 SCV's, put 1 to chase the probe, 2 to Guard the pylon energy circle, Essentially, the idea would be to use the other 2 to block the probes attempt to gateway, and even if you needed to use two more SCV's to block, Losing 5 SCV's from production to ensure his proxy would fail should be worth it. You could put 1 in top area zone, bottom, left, right, and QUE run them around... plus you have the one chasing his probe, so you'll see if he tries to reproxy anywhere, and won't get surprised.
That would be safer then trying to kill the pylon, (provided the blocking works), because he could get his gateway and rebuild a pylon afterward. and Much more eco friendly then pulling all your SCV's to kill off his crap... which is never a good idea.. ever.. If he gives up, he's gotta build his base over in his main, setting him behind a bit, and a few reapers should be able to rip him apart unless hes got well placed cannons.
It's theory, I'd have to put this to the test, I think I could hold this off with 3 SCV's, which would set him back a lot more then it would me, You would have to be very quick with reactions and know how to micro well...
I can't wait for it to happen to me, to really see how viable this would be, Ideas?
I think you need to play the game more if you are seriously "trying to block pylon energy circles." lol. You were kidding right?
best bet so far is an out of base tech labbed rax for reapers it seems.
i do this in my placement matches to get games over quick... just make a bunker and repair it and you win. don't bother pulling scv unless you know you can kill the probe as the P loses less money than you would. If you kill the probe it's gg. If the bunker goes up it's gg. Just make sure your rax is in a spot that you can get marines int he bunker w/ out dying.
edit: By place a bunker i mean place it next to the gateway/pylon. that way no matter if he sends zealots to your scv his shit is getting shut down. use 1 marine in the bunker and the rest to defend your scv... if he pulls zealots back to ur bunker help it.. common sense
When a probe early comes into your base, chase it with one SCV. When you see the proxy pylon, stop SCV production and make a barrack (and reproduce SCVs). Before the 1st chrono-zealot spawn: You have enough time to make a bunker and repulse or kill the drone with your first marine. It's good to kill the pylon because you will kill the probe too.
On a smaller map, it would be more difficult.
Did you read the thread at all or did you come in assuming no one tried that?
I have watched your replay and read the thread. Please re-read my answer and re-watch your replay.
I again think this has alot to do with the maps and spawn positions, if your gas is like to the exit of your base you can get a nice rax/depot placement with a choke were you can make a bunker in or micro a bite and struggle on. Its defenatly not easy but you got a chance here.
If you spawn crapy though like on insonlator in the bottom there is like almost nothing you can do imo, I lost vs White-ra today when he 2x gated me and you cant kill the pylon cause the gates block it. I nearly had perfect reply for as far as my knowledge goes imo I did outmicro him, got my bunker up and even a fac later but your going to lose so much money its almost impossible to stop the 2x stalker chrono boosted. I beaten him before by going to his main with the first helion but this time he had a pylon/core block up so its basicly gg from there.
On a more serious note, I had this happen to me on a 2v2 on twilight fortress match. Two toss tried to cannon rush us and my partner left early. (I had a 11 rax i believe, so it's not exactly a 12 rax, but the logic applies). I'm not gonna talk about zealot proxies since I haven't had much experience with them. But against a cannon rush it's not so difficult provided you're smart and don't throw away scvs/marines in a blind panic to kill the cannons.
You should try to get an orbital command up if you can. This allows mules to be called down, therefore freeing up some scvs to fight without hurting your econ too much. Also, in order to rush you so quickly, you can bet that the toss player is very low on worker count. Cannons being a static defense, it's hard for the other player to mount a considerable defense of his own. If you can, try to ignore his cannons as much as possible (float your CC if you need to) and go for a base race. If possible, a factory with siege tanks will really help out.
The point is to not lose your head upon seeing the cannon rush, especially if you are terran, since most of your buildings are mobile. Obviously, the same can't really be applied to a gateway/zeal rush.
I would upload a replay, but i have to get to class now.
i had this happen to me yesterday on Kulas Ravine. which isnt even a 2 player map.
everything he says is perfectly accurate. clearly a earlier than 12 rax rapes this build, but to play safe like that can put you behind if they dont proxy which is rare.
Who says 12 rax is viable vs cheese? Kind of like a 13-14 gate is vulnerable to cheese, as is a 14 pool (though not as much). I 10 gate every game against zerg and do fine because of zealot harass - 10 rax is same principle against P. I think the answer is obvious and in front of your face (10 rax), it's the unwillingness to accept solutions that involve a bit of risk, even against strategies that themselves involve risk, that creates whiny-ness which in turn results in bad patches.
If barraks hasn't been built yet u could build it Where his pylon power would be, then with a few scvs u could block the areas in which he could build a gateway. I don't even think u would need that many, u could also throw down another supply if u got the dough.
Would this work?
U could even try lifting the cc and landing it within his to-be pylon power. Do a little distance mining, shouldn't be too far if it's inyoface
On April 27 2010 05:04 4Servy wrote: how the heck you reach siege tanks vs a double proxy gate or a gate/cannon attack?
Assuming that you've gotta your refinery while your barracks was building, it's not too difficult as long as you don't panic and pull your scvs off gas and your base isn't too compact. Cannon pushes are very slow. to get a tank it's just 225 gas, which isn't that much. To get siege tech it will be 125 gas(100 for the research and 25 for the addon). Unless you let him cannon close enough that he can hit your refinery, that's only 350 gas. As long as you have a few marines&scvs making sure the cannons aren't coming too fast, it isn't too difficult. (You'll suffer loses of course, but assuming the toss player commits to the cheese, he won't have anything to deal with the tanks)
On April 27 2010 05:09 TFlame wrote: Who says 12 rax is viable vs cheese? Kind of like a 13-14 gate is vulnerable to cheese, as is a 14 pool (though not as much). I 10 gate every game against zerg and do fine because of zealot harass - 10 rax is same principle against P. I think the answer is obvious and in front of your face (10 rax), it's the unwillingness to accept solutions that involve a bit of risk, even against strategies that themselves involve risk, that creates whiny-ness which in turn results in bad patches.
Read the original post! Everyone already knows 8-10 rax reaper will crush something like this if protoss does it. That is not what the damn discussion is about.
Saying, "oh, open blindly 8-10 rax reaper every game is the counter to a strat" is ridiculous. People are discussing how to best deal with it if you go 12 rax, which is pretty much the standard. 8-10 rax is a blind build order win/loss. No one cares about that, it happens. We want the best way to counter this build with a 12 rax.
Saying, "oh go 8-10 rax" does not help the discussion at all.
EPT
