T vs proxy forge/gate/cannon/zealot - Page 3

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

April 26 2010 02:10 GMT

#41

to anyone wondering how effective this is, watch NonY's replay pack posted in the replays thread. He does it to most of the terran players he plays against, and wins all of them.

http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2381
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2382
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2383
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2385
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2386

steamrolled every time

Diaspora

United States140 Posts

April 26 2010 02:28 GMT

#42

This is my match versus Nony. I know the build is defendable. However I'm posting it just so people see how difficult it is to fend off. It just takes practicing against this exact build and extremely precise micro. For those who say "Go for the pylon!" It doesn't work if you've seen the replay. It's really the gateway that needs to die. The bunker CANNOT protect everything. So placement of the bunker needs to protect as much as you can. Even in the replay I don't think I could've placed the bunker better. If anything I didn't burn the gateway down and lost to many units due to imperfect micro.

All in all it's a build that Terran needs to practice to beat, I highly doubt most people can fend against it the first time they step against it. (I certainly couldn't)

http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2387

EDIT: Didnt realize someone posted the replay already, Oh well.

Opti

United States155 Posts

April 26 2010 03:03 GMT

#43

Ive seen this done to one of the streamers here on TL, he did defend against it with bunkers and insanely good micro, however in the end he just lost too much to harass to catch back up economically, so he did lose.

Not sure what to do vs this to be honest, at best it seems like you can do damage control and pray your opponent slips up with his teching/production at his normal base (ie he doesnt focus 100% on his proxy) but aside from that .. gl.

kidcrash

United States624 Posts

April 26 2010 03:21 GMT

#44

The protoss wants you to pull all your scvs when this happens. Right click attack ONE scv on the probe and remain calm. Build a bunker as close to the pylon as possible, as to cover everything. Pull an scv to repair when needed, 2-4 if things get heavy. As your bunker fills do not be afraid to build a second one if needed, remember you can salvage these later. Again, bunker positioning is extremely important, put them straight in the toss' face. I've built as many as 3 bunkers to deal with a persistent toss before.

NonY

8751 Posts

April 26 2010 03:25 GMT

#45

I think I know what I'd do as T but I'm gonna hold off on saying anything until I can see it work. The Protoss basically has a response to everything that the Terran can try to do, but if the Terran starts to do one thing and then does another, it can kinda be tricky. Toss has to make a million little decisions based on the T's responses and I think there is a combo of things Terran can do to catch Toss off guard

G0liath36O

United States3 Posts

April 26 2010 03:26 GMT

#46

i agree, there isnt enough time to be able to kill the gateway with an scv as well as keep a good economy
i guess just keep an scv patrolling around the perimeter of your base, youll still lose mineral mining time but youll be able to save yourself from early zealots

Jonoman92

United States9110 Posts

April 26 2010 04:02 GMT

#47

I've had this happen to me on scrap station a few times where it's impossible to wall off too quickly and it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to come out ahead. Even if you survive they will likely be able to kill more than enough scvs to make up for the small econ hit they took for proxy'ing you.

(In my experience on scrap station the proxy was done in the area between your nat and your main that you don't see when you head straight to your opponent's main.)

I mean even if you scout it and get a 2nd rax immediately and pump marines the first 3 zeals can get a few scvs. Then he can pylon in your main and start warping in cannons which is hard to deal with when he has 5 zealots so quickly and you are barely surviving with a bunker+marines.

imBLIND

United States2626 Posts

April 26 2010 04:32 GMT

#48

On April 26 2010 10:45 faction123 wrote:
I'd really like to see a high level replay where the terran attacks the gateway first. So far all i've seen is Nony doing it vs far worse players who attack the pylon.

Platinum level @ oasis
Do not go for the pylon; it'll just turn into the doomgate build in BW.
Bunkers are okay, but you need at least 2 of them and hope he doesn't cannon you.
Imo, the optimal way to do it on large maps is to kill the gateways. On smaller maps, I'd consider lifting off to another expansion and ignoring his proxy b/c you can counter him faster.

HolyOnes

Australia52 Posts

April 26 2010 09:33 GMT

#49

The best way I found to counter this is to first not freak out.

I get one scv to attack the probe and one to attack the pylon once it starts warping in. Continue to get a marine asap and get a bunker set up as well asap in range of his buildings. Hopefully you will kill the probe, or have a near dead pylon, or a bunker with a rine tucked in

I found this the greatest way to survive and keep youre economy up.

Sometimes you might have to rush all youre scvs over to finish off the pylon, but the cost of pylon plus the gate thats underpowered is more cost to the protoss then to you taking scvs off the minerals for a second

Yaros

Australia48 Posts

April 26 2010 13:31 GMT

#50

I don't know for sure, but couldn't this rush be countered with a reaper rush?

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

April 26 2010 14:05 GMT

#51

Has to be earlier than a 10 rax or you will get your addon blocked

the-darkest-templar

United States32 Posts

April 26 2010 14:06 GMT

#52

On April 26 2010 22:31 Yaros wrote:
I don't know for sure, but couldn't this rush be countered with a reaper rush?

Yeah, we've established that. A reaper rush will kill this attack without issue. But going 12 rax isn't a reaper rush, which is the point of this thread.

Diaspora

United States140 Posts

April 26 2010 14:08 GMT

#53

Theres another interesting thing that you'll see in my replay above. Even if the forge is unpowered protoss can still make photon canons, just a note.

fafalecureuil

France69 Posts

April 26 2010 15:06 GMT

#54

On April 26 2010 13:32 imBLIND wrote:

Platinum level @ oasis

The protoss has 35 APM, lose the probe vs SCVs, chrono boost an empty gate while not canceling a zealot in the other dying gate and it's on desert oasis which has a very long distance between bases.

Fujitsi

Belgium65 Posts

April 26 2010 15:13 GMT

#55

I had this happen to me today and finally managed to take my own base back by building a factory with tech lab and making a siege tank. I killed the 2 or 3 pylons first, disabling his 5 cannons and 2 gateways.
Counterpushed, but he switched to DT's and raped me anyways

avilo

United States4100 Posts

April 26 2010 15:16 GMT

#56

On April 26 2010 11:28 Diaspora wrote:
This is my match versus Nony. I know the build is defendable. However I'm posting it just so people see how difficult it is to fend off. It just takes practicing against this exact build and extremely precise micro. For those who say "Go for the pylon!" It doesn't work if you've seen the replay. It's really the gateway that needs to die. The bunker CANNOT protect everything. So placement of the bunker needs to protect as much as you can. Even in the replay I don't think I could've placed the bunker better. If anything I didn't burn the gateway down and lost to many units due to imperfect micro.

All in all it's a build that Terran needs to practice to beat, I highly doubt most people can fend against it the first time they step against it. (I certainly couldn't)

http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2387

EDIT: Didnt realize someone posted the replay already, Oh well.

yah, seems like just practicing vs it is good, though it is a wtf strong build that is stupid+insane that they literally can just make a pylon vs your 12 rax in your base, in your face, and get away with it. Just lol.

On April 26 2010 11:03 fafalecureuil wrote:

Show nested quote +

When a probe early comes into your base, chase it with one SCV.
When you see the proxy pylon, stop SCV production and make a barrack (and reproduce SCVs).
Before the 1st chrono-zealot spawn: You have enough time to make a bunker and repulse or kill the drone with your first marine.
It's good to kill the pylon because you will kill the probe too.

On a smaller map, it would be more difficult.

Did you read the thread at all or did you come in assuming no one tried that?

On April 26 2010 12:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I think I know what I'd do as T but I'm gonna hold off on saying anything until I can see it work. The Protoss basically has a response to everything that the Terran can try to do, but if the Terran starts to do one thing and then does another, it can kinda be tricky. Toss has to make a million little decisions based on the T's responses and I think there is a combo of things Terran can do to catch Toss off guard

lol, the good ol "I have a sweet secret super duper counter and am a top level player but I do not want to share my information in the strat forums!" good one nony!

but yah, I am thinking the best response now is to completely and utterly ignore it, proxy a rax outside your main, get reapers, and go kill all their probes, and evac all your SCVS from your main and take another base for an advanage. Otherwise, just seems just takes a fucking insane amount of effort for the little required on the toss's part @_@.

On April 26 2010 13:02 Jonoman92 wrote:
I've had this happen to me on scrap station a few times where it's impossible to wall off too quickly and it is just about IMPOSSIBLE to come out ahead. Even if you survive they will likely be able to kill more than enough scvs to make up for the small econ hit they took for proxy'ing you.

(In my experience on scrap station the proxy was done in the area between your nat and your main that you don't see when you head straight to your opponent's main.)

I mean even if you scout it and get a 2nd rax immediately and pump marines the first 3 zeals can get a few scvs. Then he can pylon in your main and start warping in cannons which is hard to deal with when he has 5 zealots so quickly and you are barely surviving with a bunker+marines.

yeh, it is pretty impossible to be ahead at all. This build way worse than SC1 proxy gates, where you would be about even, or slightly behind, or slightly ahead from them doing it and you stopping it. But here, FORTY FIVE HP SCVS, and the chronoboost make you WAAAAY behind, even if you stop it.

I think the non-existent strategy help that Nony was alluding to, was proxying a rax outside of your main the instant that we see they are doing this tactic, and then going reapers from there on offense.

that is the only thing I can think of that would ideally put you ahead or on even footing in a very scrambly game afterwards.

so...they proxy the gate in your face, once you see, immediately proxy a rax with scouting scv or another scv somewhere outside ur base, or float a rax out. Then tech lab it and go for reapers while stalling any damage to your SCV line in your main.

with your first rax, bunker/marine, and hold while you go do damage to their main. Here is where the little decisions and scouting information the toss has to do come in as nony said.

If they do not scout the outside rax, you basically are going to kill all their probes with 1-3 reapers, and then you move your base, for freewin.

If they do know what you are doing, then they will have to make tight little decisions on whether to place their first cannon in your base or at their base, which in itself, should allow you to accumulate reapers outside of your base and from there you either decide to bring them back to your main to help, or harrass them.

seems very difficult either way for such a stupid easy build toss can do.

avilo

United States4100 Posts

April 26 2010 15:17 GMT

#57

On April 27 2010 00:13 Fujitsi wrote:
I had this happen to me today and finally managed to take my own base back by building a factory with tech lab and making a siege tank. I killed the 2 or 3 pylons first, disabling his 5 cannons and 2 gateways.
Counterpushed, but he switched to DT's and raped me anyways

This is not going to work if you are playing someone executing the build well like nony does.
edit: well, it might be possible to defend absolutely perfectly till a tank, but you are going to lose marines/scvs all along the way, and then lose anyways.

ThisIsJimmy

United States546 Posts

April 26 2010 15:39 GMT

#58

When you scout the proxy gates you have 2 choices. You can either try and kill his gateways with most of your scvs (difficult if you scout it late) or you can rush to reaper and attack his base. If you don't think you can kill the gateways fast enough before a zealot comes out then I would go for the fast reaper. Definetly do not attack pylons though, that never works unless you magically killed his probe

Stropheum

United States1124 Posts

April 26 2010 15:41 GMT

#59

I'd say maybe drop a bunker somewhere right in his pylon field. Based on the timing i'm assuming from your description, you should at least be able to get 2 marines out by the time the gateway/forge finishes while teching to marauder. This means you can get protected marines constantly attacking his buildings while you keep pumping marines. If he manages to get a cannon up, send scv's to repair the bunker and micro them away if the scv's start getting focus fired. If he makes zealots and goes for your mineral line, pull the marines out of the bunker. From my thinking eventually you can get more bunkers up and just force the proxy out and then you're ahead. Since bunkers are basically free this shouldn't set you back very far, so once the proxy is gone, collect all those minerals and pump a few more marine/marauder

puril

United States43 Posts

April 26 2010 15:41 GMT

#60

if the player is good, he wont let you kill his probe so dont bother unless he hands it to you. it takes ~4 scv's to kill a pylon or canon soon after it starts to warp in, try 5 if you spot it a little later. at that point you have to pull in 8-10 scv's or lose. make sure you stop mining gas. if you have the time/resource, you can try bunkering his proxy and do the scv's switcharoo.

a lot of people who proxy gate/forge lock their pylon at the edge of a cliff so you cant get next to it, this is really hard for the terran, there is not much to do. you can pull all your scv's to kill the gateway and lose to something else later, pull just some of the probes, and lose to zealot/canon.

here's an idea that i have not tested. just continue your build to reapers, bunker your command center to slow zealot harass and eventually lift to avoid canons, kill the protoss's main base with reapers, then float your command center to a natural or high yield. while he takes your original main base, hold map control with reapers.

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