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Are Video Games an Art Form?

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blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
April 24 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

text:

+ Show Spoiler +

Video games can never be art

Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool's errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form.

What stirs me to return to the subject? I was urged by a reader, Mark Johns, to consider a video of a TED talk given at USC by Kellee Santiago, a designer and producer of video games. I did so. I warmed to Santiago immediately. She is bright, confident, persuasive. But she is mistaken.


I propose to take an unfair advantage. She spoke extemporaneously. I have the luxury of responding after consideration. If you want to follow along, I urge you to watch her talk, which is embedded below. It's only 15 minutes long, and she makes the time pass quickly.

She begins by saying video games "already ARE art." Yet she concedes that I was correct when I wrote, "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets." To which I could have added painters, composers, and so on, but my point is clear.

Then she shows a slide of a prehistoric cave painting, calling it "kind of chicken scratches on walls," and contrasts it with Michelangelo's ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Her point is that while video games may be closer to the chicken scratch end of the spectrum, I am foolish to assume they will not evolve.

She then says speech began as a form of warning, and writing as a form of bookkeeping, but they evolved into storytelling and song. Actually, speech probably evolved into a form of storytelling and song long before writing was developed. And cave paintings were a form of storytelling, perhaps of religion, and certainly of the creation of beauty from those chicken-scratches Werner Herzog is even now filming in 3-D.

Herzog believes, in fact, that the paintings on the wall of the Cave of Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc in Southern France should only be looked at in the context of the shadows cast on those dark walls by the fires built behind the artists, which suggests the cave paintings, their materials of charcoal and ochre and all that went into them were the fruition of a long gestation, not the beginning of something--and that the artists were enormously gifted. They were great artists at that time, geniuses with nothing to build on, and were not in the process of becoming Michelangelo or anyone else. Any gifted artist will tell you how much he admires the "line" of those prehistoric drawers in the dark, and with what economy and wit they evoked the animals they lived among.

Santiago concedes that chess, football, baseball and even mah jong cannot be art, however elegant their rules. I agree. But of course that depends on the definition of art. She says the most articulate definition of art she's found is the one in Wikipedia: "Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions." This is an intriguing definition, although as a chess player I might argue that my game fits the definition.

Plato, via Aristotle, believed art should be defined as the imitation of nature. Seneca and Cicero essentially agreed. Wikipedia believes "Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas...Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction."

But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn't start dancing all at once.

One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

She quotes Robert McKee's definition of good writing as "being motivated by a desire to touch the audience." This is not a useful definition, because a great deal of bad writing is also motivated by the same desire. I might argue that the novels of Cormac McCarthy are so motivated, and Nicholas Sparks would argue that his novels are so motivated. But when I say McCarthy is "better" than Sparks and that his novels are artworks, that is a subjective judgment, made on the basis of my taste (which I would argue is better than the taste of anyone who prefers Sparks).

Santiago now phrases this in her terms: "Art is a way of communicating ideas to an audience in a way that the audience finds engaging." Yet what ideas are contained in Stravinsky, Picasso, "Night of the Hunter," "Persona," "Waiting for Godot," "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock?" Oh, you can perform an exegesis or a paraphrase, but then you are creating your own art object from the materials at hand.

Kellee Santiago has arrived at this point lacking a convincing definition of art. But is Plato's any better? Does art grow better the more it imitates nature? My notion is that it grows better the more it improves or alters nature through an passage through what we might call the artist's soul, or vision. Countless artists have drawn countless nudes. They are all working from nature. Some of there paintings are masterpieces, most are very bad indeed. How do we tell the difference? We know. It is a matter, yes, of taste.

Santiago now supplies samples of a video game named "Waco Resurrection" (above), in which the player, as David Koresh, defends his Branch Davidian compound against FBI agents. The graphics show the protagonist exchanging gunfire with agents according to the rules of the game. Although the player must don a Koresh mask and inspire his followers to play, the game looks from her samples like one more brainless shooting-gallery.

"Waco Resurrection" may indeed be a great game, but as potential art it still hasn't reached the level of chicken scratches, She defends the game not as a record of what happened at Waco, but "as how we feel happened in our culture and society." Having seen the 1997 documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," I would in contrast award the game a Fail in this category. The documentary made an enormous appeal to my senses and emotions, although I am not proposing it as art.

Her next example is a game named "Braid" (above). This is a game "that explores our own relationship with our past...you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there's one key difference...you can't die." You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game. She also admires a story told between the games levels, which exhibits prose on the level of a wordy fortune cookie.

We come to Example 3, "Flower" (above). A run-down city apartment has a single flower on the sill, which leads the player into a natural landscape. The game is "about trying to find a balance between elements of urban and the natural." Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn't say. Do you win if you're the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? Does the game know what the ideal balance is?

These three are just a small selection of games, she says, "that crossed that boundary into artistic expression." IMHO, that boundary remains resolutely uncrossed. "Braid" has had a "great market impact," she says, and "was the top-downloaded game on XBox Live Arcade." All of these games have received "critical acclaim."

Now she shows stills from early silent films such as George Melies' "A Voyage to the Moon" (1902), which were "equally simplistic." Obviously, I'm hopelessly handicapped because of my love of cinema, but Melies seems to me vastly more advanced than her three modern video games. He has limited technical resources, but superior artistry and imagination.

These days, she says, "grown-up gamers" hope for games that reach higher levels of "joy, or of ecstasy....catharsis." These games (which she believes are already being made) "are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures." The only way I could experience joy or ecstasy from her games would be through profit participation.

The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets."

Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care.

Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, "I'm studying a great form of art?" Then let them say it, if it makes them happy.

I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.


So i Just finished reading this article by Robert Ebert, who argues that video games can not, and will never be, an art form.

One of his main points is that the difference between art and games is "you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome," and when it doesn't have points or rules, then it ceases to be a game and turns into a representation of a story or novel.


For some reason, probably because my viewpoint on this subject is limited, i cannot agree with him. The games that he was referencing were less on the artistic side (save for flower, but that is my opinion), whereas there are many games out there that i would personally consider artistic due to factors such as graphics and overall story.

What do you guys think? Are video games/Can video games be a form of art?
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
dani_caliKorea
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
730 Posts
April 24 2010 14:55 GMT
#2
Shadow of the Colossus and Okami.
TwilightStar
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States649 Posts
April 24 2010 14:56 GMT
#3
Lol...?

I stopped reading after he agreed chess is not an art.

This guy is a pure tard.

(5)Twilight Star.scx --------- AdmiralHoth: There was one week when I didn't shave for a month.
Brad
Profile Joined April 2010
2754 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:02:28
April 24 2010 15:01 GMT
#4
The guy is a dinosaur. He is from a certain era, and he will never be able to grasp certain things. He has probably never even played a video game in his life.
Lee Jae Dong proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the StarCraft game strategy.
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
April 24 2010 15:04 GMT
#5
well he is talking about it in a different aspect

he's saying the way you play a game is different from the way you make other types of art

not like "games have no art in them"
Nony is Bonjwa
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
April 24 2010 15:06 GMT
#6
On April 25 2010 00:01 Brad wrote:
The guy is a dinosaur. He is from a certain era, and he will never be able to grasp certain things. He has probably never even played a video game in his life.


Yeah, from the way that he wrote this, it seems like he never has played a video game. He went off examples from the games mentioned in that presentation, and no other games.
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
FlopTurnReaver
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Switzerland1980 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:07:29
April 24 2010 15:06 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



EDIT: Bottom right btw.
Check out @MapOfTheMonth on Twitter and under http://bit.ly/motmorg
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:14:30
April 24 2010 15:13 GMT
#8
On April 24 2010 23:56 TwilightStar wrote:
Lol...?

I stopped reading after he agreed chess is not an art.

This guy is a pure tard.



Uhm I really dont see chess as art either.

But the thing is, except for the "winning" argument, Ebert doesn't really have any objective arguments at all.
He just says that the movies are more advanced in artistry, and these games are pathetic.
Great. Way too make a good argument.


Is music considered art? Yes.
Are drawings considered art? Yes.

Well guess what, video games got both of these and a whole lot more.
Also there's already games that are not about winning. Ever heard of a Sandbox mode for example?
But Mr. Ebert doesnt know that because he never played a video game.

I think the man's a pretty decent movie critic, but I don't get why anyone would talk about something he knows nothing about.

Braid is awesome btw., really one video game that I would consider art.


beep boop
Thrill
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
2599 Posts
April 24 2010 15:21 GMT
#9
Roger Ebert is a genius, he's just ignorant to the fact that games can be produced with 0 budget and 0 marketing interest.

"You Have To Burn The Rope" is a great example and pretty much proves its case alone.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
April 24 2010 15:21 GMT
#10
Braid is definitely an artform... The game is eloquent - whatever that means. =P
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
plated.rawr
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway1676 Posts
April 24 2010 15:22 GMT
#11
I'll have to agree to his point that a game is not art, because it follows guidelines that are not in touch with what defines art. That being said, art is a major part of games, design-wise, story-wise and i'm sure some programmers would call their script structuring art as well. But anyhow, my point is, a game is far more than "just" art, as it encompasses far more than a piece of art would.
Savior broke my heart ;_; || twitch.tv/onnings
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5094 Posts
April 24 2010 15:22 GMT
#12
sounds like he never played any good games.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
Infundibulum
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States2552 Posts
April 24 2010 15:36 GMT
#13
Ebert is a great writer, but he's obv out of touch
LoL NA: MothLite == Steam: p0nd
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:37:09
April 24 2010 15:36 GMT
#14
That's just stupid. Anything done well enough can be art. Broken Sword and the Last Express are art in the same way as the Maltese Falcon and Gosford Park, and he gave both of them 4 stars. He's probably somewhat warped cause he's old and seen so many terrible video game to movie conversions.

He doesn't seem to acknowledge that certain games go for being immersive rather than challenging.


EDIT: Oh, and I probably would consider Chess art. But maybe that's just me.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
April 24 2010 15:40 GMT
#15
On April 24 2010 23:55 dani_caliKorea wrote:
Shadow of the Colossus and Okami.


the first thing i thought upon reading the thread title in the sidebar is "shadow of the colossus is"

=)
~
kiykiy
Profile Joined July 2009
233 Posts
April 24 2010 15:42 GMT
#16
My art teacher used to say that art is anything we do to make expressions tangible (It sounded more "pro"). I think that is one of the best and most memorable things I've learned in highschool, lol. So I do think games can be works of art.
lalala
lokiM
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3407 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:43:11
April 24 2010 15:42 GMT
#17
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120964
isn't this the same discussion?
You can't fight the feeling.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 15:52:56
April 24 2010 15:48 GMT
#18
A long time ago I thought about this and came to the conclusion that video games can synthesize different artistic mediums and have many art-like qualities, but they are not really art. Then again, "What is art?" is not really that important of a question or distinction IMHO.

I don't feel like elaborating much more, so I'm going to quote a "plot/story guide" on ICO by PeterEliot. Everybody is mentioning SoC, but really ICO would be a better example for anyone taking up the "games as art" argument. It's an interesting perspective from someone who likes video games and understands art in a way that most readers probably do not. For the most part, I would agree with his claims. Full guide is here. Section three I'm quoting below.

+ Show Spoiler [Art or no art?] +

And with that I am done. I hope I have in some way added to your enjoyment of the game. If you came to this exercise thinking that ICO, despite its rich
atmosphere, is rather thin in story, and I have helped you change that opinion,
I should deem the exercise a success and be most content. I wish however to
warn you against the opposite error. That is, I don't want you to get the
idea--not from me anyhow--that this unassuming fairy tale is a masterpiece of
Shakespearian proportions. Throughout the exercise I have invoked great works of literature to illustrate some aspects of the game, but the comparisons were to show how ICO draws from similar principles, and never to suggest that its merits rival those masterworks'. *For its medium* ICO is very unique, very sophisticated, and I wish there were more games like it. I have not seen a video game tell a story so skillfully and seamlessly. Thus ICO's brilliance as a work of fiction is, to a fair extent, comparative--it shines because the storytelling in other games is so dull. I have scrutinized it as I have never scrutinized another game because it is the only game I know that even warrants that sort of treatment. Before ICO, I had seen stories in games that were entertaining as diversions, but they never made me want to study what made them entertaining. They did not have enough for a study, unless one meant to study bad storytelling.

Now, just about every person who is deep into gaming seems to believe that
video game is as competent an art form as any. If he is a fan of ICO, he may
point to it as his proof. Some people who share a similar view have even paid
*me* compliments along the line of "I'm glad someone is finally treating video
games with respect they deserve" or "It's great that you take your games so
seriously." I am not and I do not. My regard for ICO is a very poor indicator
of my opinions on video games in general. I think most video games, even those that boast beautiful visuals and grand epic themes, are severely awkward as art works--lacking any kind of unifying mandate apart from their all-important pursuit of "fun," which seems to me no more artistic than baseball or poker. I have often heard video games validated as art in words like these: "Video gaming is art because any creative human activities, especially those not essential to the immediate necessities of survival, can find artistic expression. Why should games be any different?" And that is right of course. But I wonder if we are asking the right question to begin with. By the most generous definition of art we are almost constantly surrounded by art and doing things with artistic implications. Even a silly doodle scribbled in a notebook during a boring lecture counts as art. But surely we knew this already? Surely the question we ought to be considering is not "Is it art?" but rather "Is it good art?" Let me recast the question in a different mold. None will deny that poetry is an art, and a much respected art. But is there such a thing as bad poetry? Of course there is. In fact an enormous portion of it is unreadable. So when we declare poetry an art form we are not really paying poetry as a whole any compliment. Like most creations art can be wonderful or terrible or merely mediocre.

And that is my problem with all this heated debate over whether video games
constitute an art form. People speak as if they were bestowing some great
honor upon games by calling them art. But art is a value-neutral term. When
we say "This pottery is a work of art" we are not praising the pottery; we are
stating a fact. The pottery may be a sublime work of art, or it may be an
execrable work of art. Of course, should we be moved to exclaim "My goodness, this pottery is a work of art!" then we most certainly are praising it. But that is only because we are all along meaning to say it is a *good* work of
art. We have merely left "good" unspoken--unspoken but clearly implied by
the tone and the context.

The game industry has not produced many--if any--sublime works of art or it
would not be struggling so much for respectability. Literature and music are
better received as art forms because those fields have produced across
centuries numberless masterworks whose enduring beauty and relevance have been tested and proven; works which allow the audience into the profoundest depth of the human genius. Until video games do the same, and I am not sure it will happen, the genre will continue to suffer the stigma of low-grade entertainment.

Look at popular comics for instance: it has been around for a century and has
been far more successful than video games in cultivating its distinct brand of
artistic integrity, but it fares only slightly better in finding acceptance as
a meaningful art form. Recent popular comic artists have tried to improve its
reputation by a number of tactics--rendering superhero comics in classic media like oil and pastel (some examples of which are quite skilled), injecting
philosophical and social commentary into the drama, waiving two-dimensional
heroes and villains in favor of rounded characters, shifting from flagrant
optimism to increasingly dark and "mature" outlooks, and so on. All these have made popular comics more interesting, but where earning greater artistic
validation for the genre is concerned they were more or less doomed to failure
from the beginning. A tragic, complex, philosophical, photorealistically
rendered BATMAN is still BATMAN--the exploits of a handsome young billionaire who protects the streets of Gotham by nightly donning a skintight bulletproof outfit, a cape and a mask with fake horns so he can go about manually beating up criminals. If there is a difference, it is that this reinvented BATMAN expects the kind of respect which the series' own nature denies, so that where it was merely silly before it is now pretentious. I often perceive the same pretentiousness when a gamer declares his pet title artistic or profound--as if grand pantheistic talks about a planet's life force saves it from being a role- playing game whose goal is to equip your characters for better combat moves, as if cramming a game full of religious and metaphysical allusions makes up for its being similarly crammed full of giant fighting robots and fetching sex symbols, as if turning the story into a treatise on some philosophical theme excuses the poor storytelling.

Some people may object that the flaws listed above do not really fall under the
criteria of the so-called gaming art. Gaming art, I have been told by some, is
about the ingeniousness of gameplay. I could not understand what this gameplay was and tried looking it up. None of the dictionaries I owned had the word. So I gave up on defining gameplay, but from what I have learned since it has to do with the cleverness, depth, and enjoyableness of the rules that make up the game. Superior gameplay makes the fun more enduring and rewards the skills of the player. Just a few weeks ago I saw a footage of someone completing a whole SUPER MARIO game in a matter of minutes. He did not make a single mistake. He blazed through the levels like a tiny 2-D god, killing all the enemies and getting all the points and making all the jumps at exactly the right times and not slipping or getting hit even once. It was like seeing a Karate master who so clearly saw through the opponent's moves that he was impermeable to them. It was impressive. So that's what those SUPER MARIO fans were always telling me about, I thought. (I had played the game myself and knew how hard it was.) I wondered if this might be what they mean by gaming art, and if this sort of gameplay indeed has artistic merits.

To explain the answer I came to, I want us to consider an illustration that may
at first seem odd. I want us to consider ballet and gymnastics. Both words
call to the mind the image of petite graceful young ladies in form-fitting
attires. Both disciplines use the human body as the vehicle of their ideals.
Both a ballerina and a gymnast spend year after year in rigorous training to
achieve the utmost grace and efficiency of movement. Both must possess passion and commitment as well as talent in prodigious degrees if they are to succeed. We call ballet an art and categorize gymnastics under athletics. Now would you not say this is a most unfair distinction? What doe the gymnast lack against the ballerina that she is labeled an athlete but not an artist? Does she lack training, competence, zeal, even beauty? No; she uses the same medium for her skills and works just as hard if not harder. In fact if you are at all like me you probably find gymnastics much more spectacular than ballet. So why the distinction?

The reason is in the nature of the disciplines. Ballet pursues beauty, while
gymnastics aims at nimbleness. Physical agility of course contains an element of beauty. Naturally some gymnastic competitions include artistic dimension as a part of the evaluation criteria. But every gymnast understands that her work is first about pushing the body to the limits of agility and second about expressing beauty. Consequently we say, and rightly, that the gymnast
*demonstrates* and the ballerina *performs*. A gymnastic demonstration can and should have an artistic aspect, but that is not where its focus lies.
If by gaming art we mean no more than a very clever and efficient way of
yielding pleasure, a kind of mental gymnastics as demonstrated by the Super
Mario expert--well, that may or may not be art, but one thing is for sure: if
it is art, it is a kind of art that will be taken seriously by none save its
own devotees. Any art in SUPER MARIO or TETRIS, or even in go or chess, is doomed to enjoy no recognition outside their circles of fans, however global
those circles may be. For it is the mark of the great arts to be *relevant* to
some essential aspect of what it means to be human. That is why they always find a broad audience to acknowledge, even if they do not fully appreciate, their value. I appreciate ICO because, much more than any video games I know, I find it full of that worthwhile and pleasurable relevance which I have found in good literature, music and paintings. But a gamer who praises the art of ICO, or the art of any other titles for that matter, ought to remember that far superior art of similar kinds abounds outside the field of gaming. Else he may risk the nearsightedness of a child who thinks himself a fine poet because he is versed in nursery rhymes.
Squallcloud
Profile Joined February 2008
France466 Posts
April 24 2010 15:51 GMT
#19
Games (at least the good one) are made of music, drawing, stories all of those 3 are art.

That makes them art in my book.
Firebathero fanboy - It's not that i'm dumb i'm just controlled by a retarded infestor - Day[9]
CCGaunt
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States417 Posts
April 24 2010 15:54 GMT
#20
He says that video games you can win?

There are plenty in which you can't.
Dwarf Fortress is amazing, but there is no victory.
You simply watch your kingdom destroy itself and fall, as all empires do.

Also, in Starcraft you never "win" on the progamer scene. All the players have to keep improving and playing creatively to win. Even the bonjwa have fallen from their status.
Take me to Korea
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