• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 15:48
CET 21:48
KST 05:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament
Tourneys
$100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1324 users

OP! OP! OP!

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
BamBam
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
745 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 18:35:40
April 24 2010 00:25 GMT
#1
There have been quite a large coalition against the Starcraft 2 beta in terms of select units acquiring the dreaded "OP" status. A title that only a few units wear shamefully in both its predecessor Broodwar, and the current installment. But, this is nothing new. With starcraft 2 units acquiring the hard counter system with enhanced AI, this is to be expected, especially from the starcraft community who is more familiar with more "soft counters" then hard, as the reasoning being is that any unit can kill another with proper positioning and micro.
[image loading]
Well... Almost any unit


Yet even now we can see the resurrection of old beliefs that despite this hard counter system currently cemented in the game, there are ways to overcome such concerns. The most basic, which is what is now visibly seen currently, is just out macroing the opponent to the point where hard counters are nothing more than a poor speed bump. This ironically correlates to old zerg thinking about just a mass swarm of units, constantly being chucked at the enemy till he eventually breaks. For awhile (as we have witnessed in Broodwar), this was the case where it broke down to who had the most stuff, it was not until quite much time later were more unique tactics developed and improved upon to further enhance ones chances of winning by relying on unconventional unit commands.
[image loading]
"Did you hear something?"

It of course brings us to the main problem in starcraft 2, it isn't the implementation of the hard counter system, but how the units in the game where developed and introduced that cause such a conflicting factor. It can be reasonable to accept that hard counters exist in Starcraft:Brood War. But to the extent that Starcraft Two is at? Hardly. When units were developed in Broodwar, they were designed for a specific 'niche'. Such as the lurker against infantry, or the corsair against air, and with the addition of micro and tactical awareness, additional use for these units could be achieved. Example can obviously be seen with mutalisk micro. It was intended to be a air support flier, but was it ever thought that it could prevent large waves of terran infantry? Oh heavens no! But nothing stopped such a thing from occurring.

Unfortunately, this philosophy did not return to the Blizzard team during the development of Starcraft 2. Rather, they sought to take the initiative by building a unit around the specific role they wanted it to fill, instead of just developing a unit to each race that filled a niche then leaving it to the players to develop its aspect. What this causes is overlapping, and limited life of units. An example of this can be seen with the reaper. It was designed with the full intention to be a raider, and it does it quite well, doing an astonishing 30 damage per 1.6 seconds to buildings. Unfortunately, that is all it does, and all it ever will. The fact that a reaper can't hold its own in any serious fight against other units is quite alarming, which forces the reaper in the very tight spot that it is in now. Whether this is something Blizzard sought to achieve matters not, but it raises valid controversy over the stock of these units who have limited use. Compared to broodwar, where every unit could have an extended use one way or the other (Vulture is a scary base raider after using its mines, hydras can morph into very devastating defending units, dark templars are an excellent scouting tool/expansion denier, and at times can be an accepted fighter in battles because of its high damage output).
[image loading]
Carriers : Making facepalms since 1998.

Now, I am not going to say Starcraft Two will ever evolve to a point where niche units wont be discovered, there are still plenty of unrevealed units who are begging for a place in gameplay and eventually, we will see them in standard builds. For all we know rushing for mothership could very well be a valid strategy in a couple of years time. But the dilemma that faces many of us, is that there is a large amount of units that have a limited life span in the duration of the game brought on even more rapidly with the current counter system. Obviously the great players out there will stretch a unit's use as long as possible, but only so much can be achieved.
[image loading]

OP status in 3...2...1..


I hope this smallish page is enough to stop some of those chanting "op!" and instead focus on finding extended uses for their units. Be creative, its a new game, and most importantly its a new start for those of us who want to become as unpredictable as possible. (TLO has already won many hearts doing this!) And if patches just so happen to bring about Nerf's/Buffs to your main race, try to use it to your advantage. Or if nothing else, use something more unconventional to use them. No one says you have to play a specific way to gain a win.

On April 25 2010 03:35 Energizer wrote:
For those of you who already mentioned - I am terribly sorry for causing such confusion with the terms "niche" and "role". It comes from my lack of proper writing skills so to help clear the message, ill define what I mean more clearly as per below and add this into the OP. Again, terribly sorry for that.

When I refer to role, I purposely mean that a selective unit (whether it be a reaper, immortal, etc..) has been implemented for one specific purpose in the game without much leeway into additional uses. As like I said, reaper was designed for the harassment role, but it cannot be easily seen as a main army composition due to its lack of HP and attack power. Same can be said for many other units like Immortal which was solely introduced as a counter unit to everything armored.

As for the term niche, I refer that to any unit that was made as being part of a 'grouping' that wasn't necessary made to counter any specific unit and can easily change roles. Such as the lurker, it can be a very strong defensive unit securing expos, or it can be a very powerful anti-infantry tool on aggression. Or to become more modernized, the sentry which can be a strong defensive, or extremely ideal for aggression as Protoss while not having any major bonus damage being attributed to the unit to make it good.

Yes, I know both words have the same dictionary value, but I was troubled in finding another type of term to replace the existing ones, something I'm very sorry for!

"two is way better than twice as one" - artosis
See.Blue
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2673 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 00:30:09
April 24 2010 00:29 GMT
#2
Terrific post man, couldn't agree more. Haha I think you've contributed more in your singular 60th post than i have so far in all of mine. Way to raise the bar. Cheers!
skYfiVe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States382 Posts
April 24 2010 00:31 GMT
#3
Good post Energize, and I think what you say is definitely true. I think there will always be a number of exasperating nerds that want any and every reason to have their race be "the best"! or aren't going to go out of their way to test the game extensively.

All in all, good post, and I hope more of "those" people will read this and understand hard counters are a part of every game, and that's the point of a strategy game is to adapt and learn on the fly.
"1baseiwa"
IndecisivePenguin
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States771 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 00:35:10
April 24 2010 00:34 GMT
#4
I'm extremely interested in the viable strategies yet to be discovered for this game. SC2 is still so young (well yes, IndecisivePenguin, it is in beta afterall), but we're already seeing some exciting new developments being made by the players. Of course Blizzard will need to perfect this game in the way it can best, but the players are going to be the true determinants of how great this game will be.

Look at BW. Twelve whole years and people are still finding new things. I definitely hope to see the same in SC2. And after we play through Wings of Liberty a while, we have two more expansions to look forward to! New units, new strategies, new gameplay. But I can already tell there's a lot on our plate right now with this game.

I'm excited.
Swiftice
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States35 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 00:39:01
April 24 2010 00:38 GMT
#5
This post reminded me of luckyfools video about starcraft 7 years in 7 minutes
GogoKodo
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Canada1785 Posts
April 24 2010 00:46 GMT
#6
I don't really see the argument.

Rather, they sought to take the initiative by building a unit around the specific role they wanted it to fill, instead of just developing a unit to each race that filled a niche

This doesn't make any sense to me. Building a unit for a role and building a unit for a niche is the same thing. You're right they did it in Starcraft. They are also doing it in Starcraft 2. The way Brood War works is not is how it was intended to be played, and that's something you can't really design for.
twitter: @terrancem
eLiE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1039 Posts
April 24 2010 00:48 GMT
#7
man, do i ever love banelings. definitely one of my favorite units
How's the weather down there?
Morayfire73
Profile Joined April 2010
United States298 Posts
April 24 2010 00:50 GMT
#8
Things are still currently in beta. More and more units become more and less viable with each patch. Early on Thor drops were unheard of, now they are pretty common. As you said 12 years after new strategies are coming out, but SC2 has only been in beta for 2 months. Give it time and it will evolve.
[Insert witty comment here]
NeoScout
Profile Joined April 2010
United States103 Posts
April 24 2010 01:01 GMT
#9
op units and spell add fun and challenge to the game
ComradeDover
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria758 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 01:07:43
April 24 2010 01:06 GMT
#10
Pretty images and a good format don't save an article from a bad and biased assumption. I'm getting the arguement you're trying to make, but I'm not seeing how you're making it or what you hope they'll change. I've pretty much had it with all this hard-counter whining, and the thought that you think you can tell from this point (in the BETA!!) how far the metagame will or won't develop is being several different kinds of snobby.

The one thing we can agree on is the last paragraph. The rest is pure nonsense.
Bring back 2v2s!
skYfiVe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States382 Posts
April 24 2010 01:16 GMT
#11
On April 24 2010 09:46 GogoKodo wrote:
I don't really see the argument.

Rather, they sought to take the initiative by building a unit around the specific role they wanted it to fill, instead of just developing a unit to each race that filled a niche

This doesn't make any sense to me. Building a unit for a role and building a unit for a niche is the same thing. You're right they did it in Starcraft. They are also doing it in Starcraft 2. The way Brood War works is not is how it was intended to be played, and that's something you can't really design for.


His post isn't really about how units fill niches, etc. It is about how too many people simply resign into crying OP, without testing possible viable strats, and not enough people take the initiative to test out builds and don't give into the OP argument.

This happens with every game, and what you need to do to become a top player is ignore what you think is imbalanced and work to find ways to beat it no matter what it may be. There is a reason players like orb are set to like 2 total builds, and its because he has no initiative to take on the role of finding a way past more intuitive builds.

It is basically saying don't be the guy that cries OP, and Blizz will take care of the balance.. it's not like they aren't watching.
"1baseiwa"
emikochan
Profile Joined July 2009
United Kingdom232 Posts
April 24 2010 01:17 GMT
#12
Banelings are the new lurker, you can beat banelings with good micro and positioning (reapers rock here too), it's just hard, hard like beating lurkers with marines.

The vid was pretty unconvincing, T had plenty of time to focus the banelings down. All those marines would die to one storm too if they just stood there.

That said I still don't see the hard counters existing any more than in BW (immortal aside)

Abritrary "it's still beta and SC1 was so horribly bad in beta"

A niche is a role btw, you'll have to clarify on what you actually mean. and reapers can hold their own, with micro ( a lot, another "problem" with stalkers needing a lot of micro)
They beat pretty much everything melee if you let them and can do very respectable damage to light ranged if they aren't focused.

I agree that new fancy uses may be constantly found forever, though I hope that the units are diversified even more so multiple ways of controlling units come into play...
Probes need love too.
ymirheim
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden300 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 01:20:11
April 24 2010 01:20 GMT
#13
I think that the notion that starcraft/broodwar was all about soft counters is a bit of unintentional historical revisionism by most players.
Lets think back, was the concept of soft counters in broodwar really there when the game was new? Or did they evolve over time as the game was played for ten years?

Maybe my memory fails me but I seem to recall that when starcraft was new it felt like any other hard counter game and every strategy site had the same kind of counter listings as any starcraft 2 site would have now. The firebat counters the zealot, the science vessel counters the archon etc etc.

Soft counters is something that develops over time as players improve in the game, when the game is still in beta the only counter that you are going to see clearly is the hard counters.
The only thing you should feel when you shoot someone... is the recoil
QueueQueue
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada1000 Posts
April 24 2010 01:21 GMT
#14
On April 24 2010 09:38 Swiftice wrote:
This post reminded me of luckyfools video about starcraft 7 years in 7 minutes


Interesting video. Enjoyed it a lot.
DanceCommander
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1808 Posts
April 24 2010 07:14 GMT
#15
what a great post. really makes ya think haha, mothership rushing ;D
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
April 24 2010 07:19 GMT
#16
"TLO has already won many hearts doing this!"

i cannot agree more
cw)minsean(ru
Frozz
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada61 Posts
April 24 2010 07:23 GMT
#17
On April 24 2010 16:14 DanceCommander wrote:
what a great post. really makes ya think haha, mothership rushing ;D

Mothership rushing is great
Just make sure your becaon's not late
Their black hole's amazing
To do some sweet razing
Zerg bases - I'm sure you'll relate.
The above was a Limerick
klez.gen
Profile Joined April 2010
United States50 Posts
April 24 2010 07:26 GMT
#18
I agree on the fact that sc2 units are pigeon holed bigtime
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
April 24 2010 07:28 GMT
#19
Sounds a lot like the recent(ish) news post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471

which I agree with on a lot of points.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
WorkersOfTheWorld
Profile Joined April 2010
United States619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 07:39:50
April 24 2010 07:31 GMT
#20
On April 24 2010 09:38 Swiftice wrote:
This post reminded me of luckyfools video about starcraft 7 years in 7 minutes


Great video, really brings back some halarious memories.

And good post by the OP aswell. I agree, a lot of units seem underexplored in terms of their continued use. Innovators are already out there (glad you mentioned TLO, but there are quite a few others i've run across too) trying new things. That being said, I do think there are some rather obvious balance issues that I hope to the devs take notice of in the near future. I don't really think we're at a place where true innovation can take off just yet, but we're getting pretty close.
Samwise: You don't want to play Dustin [Browder]. He can't even beat the UI, let alone the AI. -
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 164
ProTech146
JuggernautJason143
Nathanias 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17229
Horang2 514
Shuttle 389
Hyun 115
NaDa 6
Dota 2
420jenkins808
LuMiX2
League of Legends
JimRising 505
Counter-Strike
fl0m1366
Other Games
Grubby3866
tarik_tv2558
FrodaN2062
Beastyqt815
ceh9554
RotterdaM305
XaKoH 108
Mew2King99
Chillindude61
ZombieGrub33
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 68
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 32
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1688
Other Games
• imaqtpie2220
• Shiphtur323
• tFFMrPink 14
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
12h 12m
WardiTV Invitational
15h 12m
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Big Brain Bouts
1d 20h
Elazer vs Nicoract
Reynor vs Scarlett
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-22
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.