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[G] Terran Timing Attacks / BOs

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Ursad0n
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States523 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-16 01:22:00
April 16 2010 01:17 GMT
#1
Introduction
Most of you probably do not know me so i'll introduce myself, I am a Terran player and i started playing competitively about 2 years ago, C- on iccup with Terran (like it matters in SC2) and i just got beta a little over a week ago. Watching a lot of streams i picked up a lot of knowledge on SC2, now that my ADD is in check i can focus on analyzing replays a lot more now.

Timing Attacks
Okay so i noticed recently that depending on what opening you use and what race you are playing against there are HUGE timing attacks that can be done. Mostly doing monster damage to the opponent without effecting your economy at all, or all ins to kill them entirely. For each matchup i will go into detail on about 2 or 3 openings and what they counter. Note that NONE of these are possible without very active scouting.

Vs. Zerg
Zerg can be a very easily manageable if you have the right opening, good scouting, and decent multitasking abilities. There are three main openings that i want to go into detail for this matchup.

2 Rax Marauders
As of now this is a build i believe i created (I know i came up with it on my own, i said i believe becasue if it has already become popular and i am unaware of it it don't want to be like, yeah i told them this build) Here is the liquipedia entry i submitted for this build. Please test it out and tell me any variations or weaknesses i do not address :D

Basic opening is:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 Supply
12 Barracks
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command (build a marine)
16 Barracks (Tech Lab on 1st Rax)
17 Supply

All the while Pumping Marauders from Both Barracks Concussive shells recommended, as well as Stim, E-Bay is Very easy to work in and is recommended if against hydras. Notable transitions would be to add a third and maybe fourth Barracks with a Reactor, or tech to factory and get hellions if the Zerg gets large amounts of Zerglings.


Summary
The objective of this build is to get one marine and then pump only marauders. Sounds stupid right? Absolutely no anti air and a small amount of Zergling defense. Here is where i get into the numbers more Marauders do 10 Damage vs light (Lings) and 20 Damage to Armored (Roach) A Roach has 145 Health and regenerates 1 HP instantly after each shot (that doesn't kill the Roach. This means a Marauder kills a Roach in 8 Shots. Marauders have 125 Health and 1 Armor. This means it takes a roach 9 Shots to kill a Marauder. But Marauders have 6 range and Roach have 3, so when the roach come in for an attack, Each Roach technically takes one extra shot for each Marauder that is there. Add in the concussive shells and stim, maybe a =1 attack and Marauders RAPE Roaches. Hydras Now die to Marauders in 9 Shots and Hydralisks kill Marauders in 12 Shots. That's all that needs to be said there.
In my experience you can have 8-10 Marauders when the Zerg gets to your base with somewhere around 10-12 Roaches and the Marauders win.

The Timing Attack:
This is the most important thing about the builds I am mentioning today. With the 2 Rax Marauder build there is a defined window for you to push and totally catch the Zerg on his back foot. This timing occurs at 6 Marauders, and 8-10 marauders. These numbers allow for the Zerg player to make more Roach while you are on your way to his base and still cause large amounts of damage or the end of the game. Important things to note, if you scout Mutualisks it is not sure death, however pull your forces back and transition into any combination of Marines Vikings and Thor.

Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]



Most important thing to note about this build is that if you don't scout 2 gas after the Spawning Pool or a Roach warren for sure, it is not a good idea to do the above build instead do the following. (Variation 2)

These next few builds

Basic Build:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 Supply
12 Barracks
15 Orbital Command (Marine)

At this point there are two variations that i've seen, and they both do very well at what they counter. The 6th Replay i uploaded displays the 2nd variation pretty well (Despite my sub-par macro) Which i have no excuse for and have improved since then.


Variation 1:
+ Show Spoiler +

16 Reactor on Barracks
16 Barracks (Reactor)
17 Supply
17 Factory (Reactor)
Helions and Marines Demolish Lings.

The purpose of this is to completely deny any Zergling play coming, whether it is Speedling all-in, +1 Lings, or +1 Speedlings. These can be common counters to Marauders which is why i said to be careful when going Marauders that you scouted well.


Variation 2:
+ Show Spoiler +

16 Reactor on Barracks
16 Barracks (Tech lab)
17 Supply
17 Barracks (Reactor)
30(ish) Factory (Tech Lab)
35(ish) Armory
Build thor, and marines


Problems
The main problem for Terrans is a Baneling Bust. Yes the Baneling Bust is probably the most annoying thing a Terran can deal with early game (right now). There are a few simple solutions, some more effective that others, that can save you.

The Timing Attack:
This is the most important part of any build. It is the Falcon Punch to end it all. For these two builds the timing attack varies, if the Zerg fast expands then the Timing window comes earlier. This is because the Zerg will have less units when you are ready to push out. The timing for the first variation happens two times and it is dependent on you. First if you feel you have the units and micro ability to go at a certain point, go. You will notice this is pretty much every replay i post, i go when i see what i have and what they have and i deem myself ready. However before you get the feel for that you can base it off other things. Examples being: Right after you expand and have that explosion of money, early game when the Zerg is transitioning or waiting on an upgrade, and when you have an upgrade that is about to finish so you can push as the upgrade kicks in.


Solution 1
Solid wall with buildings, not supply depots, and a bunker or two. As bunkers can be salvaged and can also deter Baneling Busts. This is great if you scout it early.

Solution 2
With less time to prepare this solution is still quite effective on most maps, however there are a few maps that it is not possible on (or insanely less viable). Scrap Station is the best example. The solution is just blocking your ramp with marauders to protect your supply depots. Seems stupidly easy doesn't it. But it works because 2 Marauders (hold position) can get some dammage off, but mainly they absorb so much damage because Banelings only do 20 damage (35 vs light)

Solution 3
Okay so you see a Baneling Bust coming and you have no marauders and no wall/crappy wall, what do you do, send an SCV or two to block and spread your marines really far apart because 1 Baneling does not kill a Marine or an SCV because Marines have 40 Health and SCV have 45, since Banelings do 35 vs light it takes 2 to kill marines and SCV. Thus, spreading them out (simple as it is) is really effective.

Replay:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Above is the best example of a real game situation that i have as far as defending Baneling busts go right now feel free to try these out for yourselves and post your replays!

For now that will be all for TvZ because i have supplied ample Timings and BOs


Vs. Protoss
Okay this was a matchup i was having problems with until the last 3 or 4 days. So it is not as expansive, however it is pretty easily manageable. The biggest scare is 2 and 3 Warp Gate rushes that Can be stopped. ALSO: Do not underestimate marines in TvP, they are actually incredibly helpful as they do more damage per second that Marauders. Added that because many people neglect to use Marines in TvP

I'll start with the most effective build so far that i did not come up with and i take no credit for. It was pointed out to me in the chat on my livestream channel by someone who saw it on one of the higher level streams here.

1 Rax into Fast Banshee
The build is centered around getting a barracks with a reactor and teching to banshee really fast.

Basic Build:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 Depot
11 Barracks
13 Refinery
16 Depot
19 Refinery
19 Orbital Command
Factory when u have money
24 Depot
27 Starport


The other openings and builds are all stated everywhere else (ones worth mentioning) and if you don't see one watch Day[9] i'm sure he has it.

The Timing Attack:
The timing for this build is when you have 1 or 2 banshee. You will know which depending on the Protoss's opening and the units he has when you are ready to attack. It is all based on feel if you think you can take him with 1 banshee then do it, if you are unsure 2 Banshee is a really effective number to push with. The way this build works is that when you push out the Protoss will most likely target the banshee, if he does the marines will kill his units, if he targets the marines the Banshee will make short work of everything. Big things to note are taking out immortals with the Banshee and target firing to kill things faster.

Replay:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Vs. Terran
Not going into detail on this right now as it is my worst matchup and i only have a few timings figured out at the moment, however i will post replays of strategies that work well against certain Terran builds with a short summary on the plan.


Notable Replays of Mine:
Not including above replays.

+ Show Spoiler +

TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +




TvP
+ Show Spoiler +




TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +





Notable Replays of Others:
+ Show Spoiler +

TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +




TvT
+ Show Spoiler +




TvP
+ Show Spoiler +





I leave you with this:
This took me a long time not only to write but to test so please only constructive criticism, if you have any grammatical errors i prefer if you PM me however you can post here, any replays again i prefer them in a PM but if you post them here i will still get them (although later than through a PM). Any questions comments or concerns post them here and I will try my best to answer them. There are a few other strategies on my livestream and if you want to watch me test new ones and use them against other people my stream is at livestream.com/ursad0n

I hope someone can benefit from this as it took me the better part of the day working on this guide and every hour of free time since i got the beta figuring these out and practicing them. Please Enjoy! :D

NOTE: I will be uploading replays as i review them and as they are sent/posted so everyone can benefit from them. Please give me time to review and upload them because i am only one person and i have other work to do. and

CONGRATULATIONS to everyone who read this giant wall of text start to finish!
You make it sound like there's a correlation between what should happen and what actually happens. I mean, life is chaotic and it's often unfair. I know it is for me.
Erucious
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway393 Posts
April 16 2010 15:08 GMT
#2
Looks very good! Recently decided to start playing terran instead of zerg because of the dullness that zerg is atm. This helps me a lot in the starting parts of the matchups.

One small question that some people might be interested in: What division do you play in?
I'm Norwegian/Dutch. Just the awesome parts of them though :D
disco
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Netherlands1667 Posts
April 16 2010 15:22 GMT
#3
I've "unknowingly" been doing that 2 rax marauders vs zerg alot. You can just kill endless zerglings (even speedlings) by "kiting".
this game is a fucking jokie
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
April 16 2010 15:24 GMT
#4
On April 17 2010 00:22 disco wrote:
I've "unknowingly" been doing that 2 rax marauders vs zerg alot. You can just kill endless zerglings (even speedlings) by "kiting".


That fact makes me a sad panda.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
craaaaack
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
479 Posts
April 16 2010 15:38 GMT
#5
Nony will dislike.
▲ I was really thirsty while playing a match. All my teammates were gone, so I drank from the water bottle that was next to me. It was very good. I thank the owner of the bottle.
Jlab
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-16 15:53:01
April 16 2010 15:52 GMT
#6
Sick guide man! this is going to help so much :D
Ursad0n
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States523 Posts
April 16 2010 15:55 GMT
#7
On April 17 2010 00:08 Erucious wrote:
Looks very good! Recently decided to start playing terran instead of zerg because of the dullness that zerg is atm. This helps me a lot in the starting parts of the matchups.

One small question that some people might be interested in: What division do you play in?

I am in silver league right now (Rank 14) But i also have only lost like 2 of my last 16 matches since i came up with all of these timings. And at the moment i do not believe myself to be a silver rank player, probably closer to gold or plat.

On April 17 2010 00:38 craaaaack wrote:
Nony will dislike.

Makes me sad, but why would he dislike?
You make it sound like there's a correlation between what should happen and what actually happens. I mean, life is chaotic and it's often unfair. I know it is for me.
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-16 15:59:22
April 16 2010 15:58 GMT
#8
edit: ah nm I saw that this thread is specifically for timing attacks
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
Bigpon86
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States238 Posts
April 16 2010 16:00 GMT
#9
Most of your "timing attacks" can be easily defended if your oponent simply scouts. Especially vs Z ones...
This is my quote.
Jlab
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States217 Posts
April 16 2010 16:04 GMT
#10
If zerg scouts with what, a drone scout past the wall or the overlord that will get shot down by a marine? Just curious.

You're missing the point Bigpon, I picked most of these timings because when you move in the you have just enough units and the Zerg or Protoss player has not had time to adequately prepare for the attack.

2 Rax Marauders for example, even if (s)he sees it coming marauders can micro fairly well and kill the small amount of lings that (s)he can make in time. And from there it is just Marauders > Hydras or Roach
Ursad0n
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States523 Posts
April 16 2010 16:33 GMT
#11
On April 17 2010 01:04 Jlab wrote:
If zerg scouts with what, a drone scout past the wall or the overlord that will get shot down by a marine? Just curious.

You're missing the point Bigpon, I picked most of these timings because when you move in the you have just enough units and the Zerg or Protoss player has not had time to adequately prepare for the attack.

2 Rax Marauders for example, even if (s)he sees it coming marauders can micro fairly well and kill the small amount of lings that (s)he can make in time. And from there it is just Marauders > Hydras or Roach


Sorry i was at my friends and i didn't feel like logging on but yes that was me ^^
You make it sound like there's a correlation between what should happen and what actually happens. I mean, life is chaotic and it's often unfair. I know it is for me.
Vexx
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States462 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-16 17:14:32
April 16 2010 17:11 GMT
#12
Don't mean to rain on your parade but I stopped reading after the Z section because it lacks significant consideration of what the zerg is doing. You will always have a couple lings taking a look at what you're planning. As soon as they see mass marauders, you will get destroyed by speedlings or the zerg will expo, drop some crawlers and introduce you to his 2 base mutas shortly thereafter.

Your hp values are wrong on marines and I don't see why a marauder build has anything to fear from baneling bust.

Edit: I just read through the rest and would like to encourage you for taking the time to write this up but to also comment that you are not ready to be writing guides.
I am not nice.
Leoj
Profile Joined January 2010
United States396 Posts
April 16 2010 17:16 GMT
#13
I believe another timing push vs P (that I need to test more with my many P buddies) is something like:

2 Marines from first rax, tech lab and pump marauders
2nd rax, immediate tech lab, pump marauders
3rd rax, immediate reactor, pump marines

Move out as soon as your first marines from the barracks come out, and reinforce as you're able, and I'm 99% sure you can get Concussive Shells by the time you push as well.
onmach
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1241 Posts
April 16 2010 17:45 GMT
#14
I don't know if I agree with the Z section. I've never seen anyone go marine hellion. If I see a terran going heavy on marines, you will be facing roaches in the very near future and hellions are useless against them.

Your marauder builds will be scouted very easily most likely. If I scout with a zergling and see only marauders and a tech lab at the ramp, I usually send an overlord overhead. If I see mostly marauders I'm a step ahead of you. I'll probably ambush halfway across the map with +1 speedlings perhaps, depending on how long it took you to push out, and then take a third.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
April 16 2010 19:07 GMT
#15
This looks like a well written guide for low level or mid level players on the ladder right now. Some of the stuff can be hard countered and some of the stuff is just basically what others have done since the beta started with variations but I believe it can help players who need gameplans at the lower levels.

As for the marauder build vs zerg:
In plat most zergs know that the correct way to play against a fast tech lab is to get speedlings asap (vs both reaper and marauder). It's normal for zerg to have about 10 speedlings roaming outside the terran base to counter and scout at the same time. When he sees your marauder coming out he will spam lings and run back with the other ones. WHen you get to his base he will have about 25 lings and more morphing. That ammount of lings will surround you and kill you before you can even try to kite. Good zergs also spread their creep out from the nat so that they can chase fleeing units easier. Speedlings on creep is not something you can kite even with stim. Also bear in mind that he can threaten you offensively and make you sitm and then just fall back. Since you have no medivac that can make you lose the battle ahead.
Ursad0n
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States523 Posts
April 17 2010 00:49 GMT
#16
To the above post:

If i see you going Zerglings (and i will) i would not be making marauders, that opening is to counter Roach/Hydra and only to counter Roach/Hydra. It has no place fighting zerglings which is why i can't stress enough scouting. Usually i can keep my SCV alive long enough to see the gas and sometimes the Roach Warren, and if i can't then i scan. Every other 50 energy goes toward a scan.
(Scan, MULE, Scan, MULE…)
You make it sound like there's a correlation between what should happen and what actually happens. I mean, life is chaotic and it's often unfair. I know it is for me.
Bigpon86
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States238 Posts
April 18 2010 19:08 GMT
#17
On April 17 2010 09:49 Ursad0n wrote:
To the above post:

If i see you going Zerglings (and i will) i would not be making marauders, that opening is to counter Roach/Hydra and only to counter Roach/Hydra. It has no place fighting zerglings which is why i can't stress enough scouting. Usually i can keep my SCV alive long enough to see the gas and sometimes the Roach Warren, and if i can't then i scan. Every other 50 energy goes toward a scan.
(Scan, MULE, Scan, MULE…)


I don't see how you are going to know exactly what the zerg is building by scans alone. Thats the thing about playing vs zerg they can switch tech very fast to react to anything you are building. He might have dual gas and a roach warren and still pump lings. You really have no way to know unless u get lucky and scan his army.
This is my quote.
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