|
So one thing you notice when playing against a Z is - you DIE if he gets Broodlords and you aren't massively ahead and/or fully prepared with a fleet of for example Vikings or Ravens.
I wondered why they are so ridiculously good. The answer is - their utility, their survivability and their damage.
Damage: They do 25 damage per attack. With every attack, they additionally spawn a Broodling. The Broodling does 10 attacks of 4 damage. And on top of that, they can store 2 attacks, making them do double damage on the first strike.
Yes, you read that right. One Broodlord has a damage potential of 2*25 + 20*4 damage (=50+80=130 damage) before armor and upgrade calculation with his first, and 65 with every consecutive attack. Without upgrades. Air upgrades apply to the initial 25 damage, ground upgrades apply to the Broodlings, making them almost as good as Zerglings.
A Guardian in SC1 does 20 damage per attack.
Utility: They have 9 range. The Broodlings soak up damage and punish Siege Tank use without any downsides for the Z - Broodlings have 30 hp, Zerglings 35. The Broodlings have the advanced unit AI that allows them to surround enemies effectively. You cannot advance in the direction of the Broodlords reliably anymore after one or two waves of Broodlings are on the ground since they block all movement.
Additionally, Broodlords morph from Corruptors, the Zergs AA, giving you a easy way to defend the Broodlords from any air attacks by simply overproducing Corruptors and not morphing them. Not to mention it goes well with any Mass-Muta build that gets Spire and air upgrades anyway or Mass-Hydra builds that provide anti-air defense.
Survivability: They have 275 hp. In comparison, a Guardian in SC1 has 150 hp. And due to the Broodling-block you can easily micro them back and forth out of range of any ground units, while utilizing the 2-attack burst. And Queens can heal them ..
Yes, Broodlords are the highest Zerg tech. No, that does not mean they should be a end-all unit, this isn't C&C. Broodlords are simply too good in all of the three sections described above.
You cannot have a unit that spawns a 30 hp buffer every second for you army, deals 65 damage on top of it, and dies only after massive amounts of focused fire. And they do not even have diminishing returns, on the contrary, the more you have, the better, as Broodlings overrun any ground army or base in seconds.
You can get Broodlords in any situation, even if you go the Ultralisk route, as they don't need any air- or ability upgrades to be useful. A T or P on the other hand has to get out of his way and make air units to counter a few Broodlords, significantly weakening their ground force against the already present Ultralings.
Be it their 25 initial damage, collision detection of the Broodlings, the 275 hp, being able to store 2 attacks or the basic Broodling stats and the way upgrades are handled or the Broodling spawning itself - I feel something has to be changed.
Discuss.
|
If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong.
|
Abuse the fact that they are slow and cannot attack air.
|
Wow good post didn't know their attacks did damage of their own, and that they shoot twice at first. Imba.
|
These points sound valid, but the thing is, I just don't find zergs ever get to the point where they can afford broodlords unless they're already going to win.
|
On March 10 2010 11:33 agorist wrote:
If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong.
there should not be a "late game I win now" unit
especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
|
On March 10 2010 11:38 ItsBigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 11:33 agorist wrote:
If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong. there should not be a "late game I win now" unit especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
Oh I don't know, Carriers are pretty strong.
|
Australia7069 Posts
to all the people going "Oh if they get broodlords you're doing something wrong" you're basically saying that you want the game to end before it gets to late game. how is that balanced? the game should be balanced regardless of how long it goes on. there shouldn't be a "beat all" strategy like broodlord/corruptor/ling as there is now.
|
United States47024 Posts
Explain the point of all these Guardian comparisons?
Yes they're more powerful than Guardians. They're also significantly more expensive than Guardians ever were (300/250, as opposed to 150/200). Not to mention that Guardians were fairly underwhelming in Brood War to begin with.
On March 10 2010 11:38 ItsBigfoot wrote:
especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
Cuz you know, people just blow away minerals and gas in the midgame on corruptors for the hell of it. Not like they need it for anything else.
If your opponent can get away with making Corruptors that will have no immediate use, and you can't punish him for spending his larvae and resources on things that won't benefit him immediately, then he already has an advantage. Your opponent shouldn't get away with making Corruptors for the hell of it. You should be forcing him to spend those larvae on Hydras/Mutas/whatever else.
|
Yeah no, saying "don't let them get to that point" is not a valid argument. That'd be equal to "Z gets win by default at 45 minutes". Getting Hive and upgrading your Spire REALLY isn't that hard.
Even 4-5 Broodlords are horribly strong and they don't cost more than you have income in the time you produce them. Telling someone to not let them get "lots" of BLs is as silly as telling someone to not let Z in SC1 (or SC2) get lots of Ultras.
|
i love these imba threads. "because sc2 is new, it has to be broken right now."
they do cost quite a bit as mentioned before a few times. IMO they are worth what they cost. Also, they're quite snipe-able seeing that they're not incredibly durable.
If engaging in an army, a colossii or two should more than easily erase the broodlings. Colossii of which do 2x20+ dmg?
|
On March 10 2010 11:39 Kiante wrote:
to all the people going "Oh if they get broodlords you're doing something wrong" you're basically saying that you want the game to end before it gets to late game. how is that balanced? the game should be balanced regardless of how long it goes on. there shouldn't be a "beat all" strategy like broodlord/corruptor/ling as there is now.
you can easily lose 6 broodlord in open area to 12 stalkers with blinks
if you really let them have like 10+ broodlord, without a lot of counter units....
what can I say?
|
On March 10 2010 11:38 ItsBigfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 11:33 agorist wrote:
If you're letting zerg get lots of broodlords you're probably doing something wrong. there should not be a "late game I win now" unit especially since broodlords only cost 150/150 if you got and saved mid game corrupters
This, Broodlords are extremely powerful and keep in mind this is a beta right NOW the only way to get them is if you're already winning but Blizzard willb e looking to fix this or the unit will never get used. And if they fix this without fixing the problems in the OP then there will be serious problems.
|
There's already numerous threads discussing this. Do we really need one more?
I don't see Broodlord being an imbalanced unit. I rarely make it that far into the game even. Also the fact also is that I think it's mainly people being under-prepared for the Broodlords when they arrive, and thus get decimated. (People don't scout enough.) It's like in imo SC1. If you didn't scout the Guardians, chances are, your army is gonna die, or your base is gonna take insane damage, which can both be game enders. But on the other hand, if you have the neccessary units to take care of them, like Wraiths or Science Vessels, they are no problemo.
Broodlords are insanely tech heavy and insanely expensive and take a long time to make. I posted this in another thread where I think ZvT works in a similiar way as it did in BW. Zerg tries to get 3 gas and tries to hold back Terrans pushes and attacks, untill he reaches Broodlords (which would be defilers) and starts being offensive instead.
Most Terrans just sit in their base. Usually they do one 1 push that can be relatively easily deflected, and then they just wonder and sit there. Usually they try massing for another push or they expand. After that it usually takes ages before they move out again, and it gives me free room to go for those Broodlords.
|
The point of the Guardian comparison is that they are the SC1 counterpart in tech and producion. If you notice, Guardians don't spawn a 25 mineral Zergling every second. The actual worth of BLs is way more than 300 minerals. It's 300+25 every shot. And they are almost equal in gas cost, which is way more important.
|
Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem.
|
i think a 50 gas increase on the morph would balance them nicely.
|
On March 10 2010 11:48 PerksPlus wrote:
Pretty sure if they have 6 brood lords you can have 6 battle cruisers, don't really see the problem.
not true at all. battlecruisers require a significant alteration in your build. broodlords are a natural progression for late game zergs.
|
Very nice post. While there may be some minor issues discussed above, I believe the point still drives home, and is mostly accurate
|
erm... you could have... 15? nukes more?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
