EPTBrowder just said in his interview protoss and zerg are winning at about the same percentage on the ladder. If you weaken brood lords, you're going to have to strengthen other units to keep it even. I don't want brood lords to be useless like guardians use to be.
Why Broodlords own you - Page 3
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
Browder just said in his interview protoss and zerg are winning at about the same percentage on the ladder. If you weaken brood lords, you're going to have to strengthen other units to keep it even. I don't want brood lords to be useless like guardians use to be. | ||
rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
QUESTIONS (How do I beat this?) RULES It’s important to understand the difference. “Why did I lose” refers to a specific game where you can’t find what you did wrong. “How do I beat this” refers to a particular strategy, idea, or even map that you are having trouble with. Original Post (1) Thread Title I’d ask that rather than using the [H], you use a [Q]. So [H] is for specific help, [Q] is for general situational questions. (2) Analysis (IMPORTANT) Your thread should ask specific questions. It is better to ask many specific questions, than one vague one. An example of an unacceptable question is: “How do I beat Templar with Zerg?” Ask yourself if someone could answer your question in one sentence. If so, it’s a good question. After this, give your own analysis of how you think the question should be answered. It might be wrong, but try your best. It doesn’t have to be long, a sentence or two should be enough to get your thoughts down. Even stating what you thought would work, and why it didn’t, is enough to avoid me closing your thread. No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
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Elaeli
Germany62 Posts
On March 10 2010 12:43 Avidkeystamper wrote: You haven't even proved they're imba though. All the points you make are mostly that it has considerable strengths, and then you claim that it's imbalanced. That's not proving anything. Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time? Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is. I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances. | ||
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KhaosKreator
Canada145 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:37 Elaeli wrote: Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? You know, Infestors have more than one spell. Ironically enough, one of them might actually be useful against Broodlords. | ||
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Elaeli
Germany62 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:17 junemermaid wrote: Their base damage doesn't get applied twice when they have two broodlings on their wings. It just launches two broodlings and deals the 25 damage. So why does a Drone get oneshot by a BL, without the Broodlings attacking? It gets applied twice. | ||
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:37 Elaeli wrote: Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time? Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is. I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances. care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense. math was never my strong point so plz break it down for me step by step. Why is it 4*20? I guess they do 20 attacks now instead of 10? and 10 attacks over a period of 10 seconds is burst now? Do carriers do a 5*2*8*10=800 burst damage each now? | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:37 Elaeli wrote: Just compare it to every single other unit? What's better, Infestor spawning Terrans with a Spell or Broodlord attacking? What's better, Ultra damage that is melee and ground based or BL damage that is ranged and air based? BLs spawning their own units that can be microed and tank/block for them or Carriers spawning Interceptors that can be ignored as they have no collision detection and return to the Carrier as soon as you move it? Being able to instantly spawn 5++ Corruptors at the same time and morphing them into BLs without building anything besides Greater Spire (which you can hide with Overlord creep drop on remote locations), or having to build 2+ Starports, Tech Labs, Fusion Core and then BCs with ultra-long construction time one at a time? Besides that. Alone the fact that BLs do 130 burst damage (ONE OF THEM, when you usually face 4+) should be concerning to you. Alone the fact that BLs spawn units that block any advancement in their direction should be concerning to you. Try attacking a building with a BL. The Broodlings spawn intelligently where there is space right next to the structure. They do not run around it, but spawn where they can attack it directly. That's how good the AI is. I'm not saying any ONE point of the BLs strengths is "imba", but that when you combine everything you get a unit that is way above all other unit's performances. Hm. I see a lot of "Wow, BL can do AAAALLL of this!" I can't exactly remember what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure it is one. The thing is, you won't ever realistically get to the point where you're facing 4+ Brood Lords while at the same time, you have absolutely nothing to beat it. If you reach that point, it's YOUR fault for not teching up as the opponent did. 4 Carriers will beat 4 Brood Lords. Heck, 1 Carrier will beat a Brood Lord. By the time the Zerg has 4 Brood Lords and some Corruptors, you will have a Mothership and a Carrier. GGkthxbai? Also, if you can't beat the Zerg while they are grabbing 5+ Corruptors and morphing to Brood Lords, it's Zerg itself that is imba, not Brood Lords. And even then, it's probably YOUR fault for no doing anything about it. Note that this is different from "Don't let them get to it or you'll lose"; it's a "Hey, WTF were you doing while they were grabbing 39485789 tier 3 units?" If you skipped tech for an early mass, then you obviously failed at your harass attempts; if you went tech and have not a single Carrier, Battlecruiser, or even a Viking, you did something wrong. Also, you CANNOT "instantly" morph in multiple brood lords. In fact, you must first morph a Corruptor, THEN into a Brood Lord. You say "At the same time," but a Reactor does exactly that, and the units it works for are actually affordable. What I'm saying is that you can make ANYTHING overpowered when you create ridiculous situations. Some examples of what you're doing: **If you get 10 Siege Tanks and 10 Vikings outside the opponent's base, they can't do anything about it. 10 Tanks will instantly kill all ground units before being hit, and Vikings slaughter all air. It's so much more powerful than Brood Lord. That needs Lair, THEN a Spire, THEN a Greater Spire, THEN Corruptors, THEN Brood Lords. Siege Tanks and Vikings only require a tech lab you should already have, a reactor you should already have, a Factory you have already, and a starport you should already have. **Banshee and Viking is overpowered. If you get 10 Banshees and 10 Vikings, you'll kill everything. It only requires a reactor you should have, and a tech lab you should have, along with a starport. You don't even need another one, just switch the tech. It's so much easier than <Brood Lord tech tree>. **Vikings are OP. You can build 2 of them at a time from a single Starport, they are fairly cheap, and they can beat ground AND air. Nothing the enemy has can beat Vikings by the time you have them out. Chances are, they won't have Corruptors because they take SO LONG TO BUILD. | ||
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noobilly
Malaysia16 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:49 rotinegg wrote: care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense. math was never my strong point so plz break it down for me step by step. Why is it 4*20? I guess they do 20 attacks now instead of 10? and 10 attacks over a period of 10 seconds is burst now? Do carriers do a 5*2*8*10=800 burst damage each now? He is including the damage the broodlings deal. The broodlord itself does double damage on the first strike for 50, then the other 80 damage is done by the two broodlings spawned who can each hit 10 times for 4 damage. | ||
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Elaeli
Germany62 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:49 rotinegg wrote: care to explain? the equation in the OP makes no sense. BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:16 rotinegg wrote: No idea why admins are not cracking down on these useless broodlord-imba-cuz-im-too-lazy-to-actually-think threads Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba? | ||
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:59 wintergt wrote: Are you forgetting that this is a beta and it's very well possible that certain units or certain strategies are imba? Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument. On March 10 2010 13:59 Elaeli wrote: BL does 25 damage with his attack. Then a Broodling is spawned that does 10 attacks for 4 damage. BL has his "projectiles" floating next to him, his fire rate is the rate at which he produces the Broodlings. He can store 2 Broodlings. If he has stored 2, he also shoots those two when attacking. So 25 initial projectile damage, 10*4 Broodling damage, and everything times 2. 25+25+40+40 = 50+80 = 130. so yea, in essence you are saying 10 attacks over 10 seconds is BURST damage lmao so my arguments stands that carriers do 800 burst damage, which is a whopping 615% of the scientifically-proven-to-be-imba-damage of broodlords! Furthermore, carriers dont have a bonus for first hits, so its even more imba when you count the normal damage of BL's, which is 4*10+25=65! So carriers have a burst damage equal to 1230% of BL's ordinary burst damage! IMBA CARRIERS! PATCH BLIZZARD! OMG | ||
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Disarray
United States1164 Posts
On March 10 2010 11:43 Elaeli wrote: Yeah no, saying "don't let them get to that point" is not a valid argument. That'd be equal to "Z gets win by default at 45 minutes". Getting Hive and upgrading your Spire REALLY isn't that hard. sounds like you never watched SC1 TvP | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
On March 10 2010 14:08 rotinegg wrote: Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument. I'm not saying that strategy discussion isn't warranted or even that I agree that brood lords are too strong and need to be nerfed. What I am saying is that this is a beta and part of a beta is looking to find balance, so you quoting from a strategy guide from sc1 which has been released for over 10 years has no relevance here. | ||
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Elaeli
Germany62 Posts
On March 10 2010 14:08 rotinegg wrote: Did you attempt to have an intelligent discussion about possible counters to broodlords before resorting to endless whining about how their stats are imba? Just because there are five useless threads about the imba-ness of broodlords recycling the same arguments does not warrant everybody to jump in and blindly support the argument. so yea, in essence you are saying 10 attacks over 10 seconds is BURST damage lmao so my arguments stands that carriers do 800 burst damage, which is a whopping 615% of the scientifically-proven-to-be-imba-damage of broodlords! Furthermore, carriers dont have a bonus for first hits, so its even more imba when you count the normal damage of BL's, which is 4*10+25=65! So carriers have a burst damage equal to 1230% of BL's ordinary burst damage! IMBA CARRIERS! PATCH BLIZZARD! OMG Don't be silly. The Broodlords can move away after the shot or die or change targets or drink a cola. The Carriers have to stand completely still with the target locked. At least think your arguments through before making stuff up, and that's not directed just at you but at lots of people in this thread.. And the argument is not about DPS, but about good damage, survivability and most of all utility coming together in one unit. | ||
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 10 2010 14:16 wintergt wrote: I'm not saying that strategy discussion isn't warranted or even that I agree that brood lords are too strong and need to be nerfed. What I am saying is that this is a beta and part of a beta is looking to find balance, so you quoting from a strategy guide from sc1 which has been released for over 10 years has no relevance here. It has all the relevance here, this is still a forum of TL, the finest non-Korean Starcraft community, no? So no rules apply when dealing with uncharted territory? It's okay to make a succession of worthless threads? You think TL would have gotten to where it's at without admins carefully extracting useless threads and damning them into oblivion? It's not about SC2 specifically, it's about the attitude you take: when there's a problem, you solve it by TRYING to solve it, not complaining about it and hoping it would solve itself (or whining how Blizzard should release a patch that nerfs Broodlords). On March 10 2010 14:24 Elaeli wrote: Don't be silly. The Broodlords can move away after the shot or die or change targets or drink a cola. The Carriers have to stand completely still with the target locked. At least think your arguments through before making stuff up, and that's not directed just at you but at lots of people in this thread.. And the argument is not about DPS, but about good damage, survivability and most of all utility coming together in one unit. Woah so carriers cant move away, but have to hold position in the open when attacking? Learn something new here everyday i guess 0_0 + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsyQse2b618 Hey look it's a carrier that moves away after launching its intercepters at 7:03! Must be a different game, C&C? | ||
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lixlix
United States482 Posts
The argument that you should have carriers and motherships when zerg has broodlords is pretty silly as the tech investment for carriers and motherships is way out of the way and will just cause the toss to lose earlier to zerg ground. Also, I think its pretty ridiculous that a game in beta is considered perfectly balanced. There's going to be adjustments many months from now maybe even a year or 2 from now. The possibility of a unit being imbalanced right now is not so unbelievable. I do think the broodlord complaints should be contained in one thread though. People should really search before starting an OP. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 10 2010 12:27 PiePie wrote: You cant tech switch with terran nearly as easily with zerg. Getting a greater spire is alot easier than getting a tech lab + science facility jazz. What are you going to do, make bcs off one starport? Zergs advantage is that they can tech switch very easily because each hatch + queen can produce any single zerg unit. In addition, mutas turn into broodlords, if you are going brood lords, you most likely went muta first which is strong in itself since mutas are not easily countered atm. The transition is to smooth and easy. THATS why Broodlords are overpowered What Terran player isn't getting Starport Lab + Fusion Core for Hunter Seeker Missile on Ravens anyway? At that point BC requires zero extra tech from the Terran other than the requisite production buildings. I can seen Broodlords being a problem in PvZ, but Terran mid-late game is plenty well equipped to handle Broodlords. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On March 10 2010 13:55 Zeke50100 wrote: Hm. I see a lot of "Wow, BL can do AAAALLL of this!" I can't exactly remember what logical fallacy that is, but I'm sure it is one. The thing is, you won't ever realistically get to the point where you're facing 4+ Brood Lords while at the same time, you have absolutely nothing to beat it. If you reach that point, it's YOUR fault for not teching up as the opponent did. 4 Carriers will beat 4 Brood Lords. Heck, 1 Carrier will beat a Brood Lord. By the time the Zerg has 4 Brood Lords and some Corruptors, you will have a Mothership and a Carrier. GGkthxbai? Don't be daft. Four Brood Lords is 1200/1000. Three fully loaded carriers in Starcraft 1 are 1650/750. If three fully loaded Carriers in Starcraft 1 could not be stopped by any terran ground units that would indeed be a clusterfuck, and "lol get wraiths and/or battlecruiser" would not be a solution. A single Carrier cannot snipe Broodlords unless it's the only thing that Zerg built in the entire game. On March 10 2010 13:55 Zeke50100 wrote: Also, if you can't beat the Zerg while they are grabbing 5+ Corruptors and morphing to Brood Lords, it's Zerg itself that is imba, not Brood Lords. And even then, it's probably YOUR fault for no doing anything about it. Note that this is different from "Don't let them get to it or you'll lose"; it's a "Hey, WTF were you doing while they were grabbing 39485789 tier 3 units?" If you skipped tech for an early mass, then you obviously failed at your harass attempts; if you went tech and have not a single Carrier, Battlecruiser, or even a Viking, you did something wrong. I think by "39485789" you meant "4." It's okay, I get confused by big numbers too sometimes. Assuming imbalance with insufficient evidence but operating under the assumption that everything is balanced is also flawed. | ||
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