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Mass Effect 3 - Page 80

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Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 18:26:54
March 11 2012 18:05 GMT
#1581
There is a theory about the ending that does have a lot of support. It was eloquently presented by a user on the forums known as lookingglassmind. I think it has some merit, if only the end credits were not so obviously reinforcing the fact that the game is over.

+ Show Spoiler +
In defense of the Hallucination/Indoctrination theory: the BioWare/Player Indoctrination Theory

With the assistance of my peers throughout the rest of this thread, I have collated a series of facts that I would like to present to the community as being evidence for a a priori intention for the endings of ME3. Some of this information will not be new to a lot of you, and it may seem downright strange to a lot of you. It does require a strong and disorienting amount of suspension of disbelief, so if you cannot engage in this type of thought process, I encourage you to skip over this post. It will hurt your brain. Or make you think that I'm crazy. Likely both. (I'm okay with either.)

With the assistance of countless others' highly important observations in this thread, I sumbit to you that possibility the endings of ME3 represent the highest form of the metagaming experience. The highest form of BioWare's "giving the player choice that matters, from ME1 to ME3". The highest form of player interaction that we have yet seen from a video game. This has never before been attempted by a company, and it represents the ballsiest dedication to story and lore that may exist.

I believe that the endings may be indicative of BioWare attempting to allow the player the real-time experience of what indoctrination would be like. This theory explains (in a highly weird, impossible, and completely insane way) all of the missing pieces in the hallucination sequence, and also explains BioWare's real-world actions (such as complete silence since the fan sh*tstorm broke in response to the endings).

If you have not been keeping up with the thread, or if you have not read Byne's/Kitten Tactics/Turtlicious' amalgamation of all of the evidence we have accumulated for the originial hallucination theory on page 1, then I would urge you to do so before you read any more of this post. Due to time constraints, I won't be posting all of the evidences that we have located in this post to confirm or contradict this theory: I leave it in your capable and self-aware hands to attain this information yourself. I am posting this as an add-on to page 1, as I don't think it was properly represented there in its entire grand scope.

So, to the meat of the issue:

We have already established as much evidence as we can that 'proves' that Shepard is either hallucinating/dreaming just prior to/immediately after he runs into Harbinger's beam/Conduit. The hallucination/dream sequence has been quite well fleshed out, with a lot of compelling environmental evidence to support it (again, please see page 1 for further analysis). I am going to use this particular vehicle of suspension of disbelief to propose that BioWare's intention during this sequence is to flag the player with as many markers as they can: This current reality playing before your eyes (the Citadel, the Catalyst, TIM, Anderson) is a reflection of Shepard. It is the product of his/her mind. The meeting with the Catalyst may or may not be rooted in reality; they may meet in some metalphysical dimension, or Shepard may just hallucinate the entire thing. Either way, this theory would argue that it essentially doesn't matter, because what truly matters is the role of the player in this sequence. Your role. The scene is set in a way that urges the player to become aware of things just not being right, of being a place that mirrors (literally) Shepard's experiences throughout the game. The reality presented on the Citadel is an amalgamation of archetypes of every thing Shepard has seen in the series, which this theory challenges the player to understand as being a direct prompt from BioWare to understand that what is truly happening during this scene is all within Shepard's mind. His/her reality. Under her/his control.

Understanding that the reality on the Citadel as being a cerebral concoction that is entirely of Shepard's creation is important when we arrive upon the Crucible. It becomes a vital understanding when we are faced with these three, seemingly bizarre and unexpected choices that the Catalyst gives us. This theory submits that BioWare is asking the player to actively question EVERYTHING that happens once Shepard runs into Harbinger's beam. The cost of not questioning, or making the right choice even if you do?

Real-time player indoctrination. Shepard's literal death.

Think about it carefully. We arrive on the Crucible, and are faced with an archetype of manipulation, the Catalyst. Taking the form of a child that has come to represent everything that is horrendous about the Reapers to Shepard, the Catalyst/Harbinger provides Shepard with three strange and disorienting choices. He first presents Shepard with the option of Destroy, making swift and empty assertations about how it is the wrong choice because it would kill all synthetic life and Shepard herself/himself. At its surface, this seems like the renegade/chaos option, and is even insidiously portrayed in Renegade Red, a direct nod to the Player himself/herself. Directly appealing to your experiences with how the game works. He then goes on at great length about the Control and Synthesis options, portraying Control as the blue paragon/order option. Again, directly appealing to the Player. He argues that Control is the best option, implies that Shepard is the new Catalyst, and leaves us to contemplate the possibility that we could use it to try and save the people we love; after all, we are Shepard, and we would never become like TIM. Synthesis is the last option explored, and it is portrayed as a compromise or as being the Brave New Hope for the galaxy. I have a suspicion that Synthesis may actually be the 'perfect' choice, but that is for another theory. (If you're curious, read about the tech-singularity lore within the game, and research humes spork's posts about the singularity within this thread.) Either way, Synthesis smacks of strangeness because it seems so inherently Reaper-oriented. As though it were servicing the Reapers' philosophy more strongly than the other two options.

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.

If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game. Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.

If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.

If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

Does this theory make sense? Maybe not. When we consider BioWare's real-world motivations and risks (profit, losing a large fanbase over the disgusting wretchedness of the endings as they currently exist), then the theory is hard to support. But if, for just one moment, we can let ourselves believe that BioWare may just have lived up to their celebrated philiosophy of Player Choice and Player Acutalization, then this theory becomes awe-inspiring. Is it possible? Could BioWare have sacrificed the potential for safe profits in order to bring the most insane and beautiful gaming experience of all time to its fans? The most unprecedented example of player immersion of our times? Would BioWare have truly allowed the risk for profit and angering a serious amount of their fan population in pure deference to the story, and its lore?

It may explain BioWare's silence on the matter, until "more people have played the game", or until all regions have the game. It may explain Jess M.'s twitter about fans "reacting before having all of the facts". It may.... just may explain these super sh*tty endings in a way that would make BioWare the God of RPGs.

Is it likely? No. Am I reaching, insanely? Yes.

But is it possible?

Yes.
"Mudkip"
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
March 11 2012 18:38 GMT
#1582
^ If that is indeed the truth, then BioWare sure knows how to mindfuck an entire planet o.O
I kinda wish it's true though, would be so much better than if this actually just was the real ending, but damn... gotta be the most ballsy move in a long time if that's the case
MizarAlcor
Profile Joined December 2010
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 19:13:58
March 11 2012 19:09 GMT
#1583
On March 12 2012 02:54 Dranak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 00:24 ZeaL. wrote:
Sigh. I was really happy with the game actually and didn't mind the ending that much (I liked Deus Ex a lot soo I guess that says something about me) but then I realized my galactic readiness was 50%. I never really thought about it and just figured it would go up as I got nearer to the end but lo and behold you have to play multi for it? Wtf? Fuckin balls man now I have to go play multi and the closest save I have to before the ending is like 4 hours before the finish.. wtf bioware. How/why is multiplayer supposed to help the single player campaign?


Supposedly you can use either multiplayer or single player side missions. Your galactic readiness ultimately doesn't matter, it's your total effective military strength that determines your outcome, so you can get by just fine with a lower readiness and more war assets.


Are you sure? The way I understood it, you need 5000 total points to get the most "complete" ending. To get that total point, you need to multiply the military poins with the galactic readiness %. AFAIK, as of now galactic readiness can only be increased by multiplayer, although in the future they are planning to allow different means to increase it, but still not through single-player, but more through iOS apps, possibly DLCs, Facebook games, etc etc. As such, if you don't increase your galactic readiness (50% by default) through multiplayer, won't you need 10000 military points to get to the 5000 total points? Is the 10000 points even a reachable number, I don't think there is that many sidequests in the game?

There is also an option of editing your savegame by editing the coalesced.bin file from what I have heard, but that's not an option that a lot of players would be willing to pursue.
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
March 11 2012 19:43 GMT
#1584
On March 12 2012 04:09 MizarAlcor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 02:54 Dranak wrote:
On March 12 2012 00:24 ZeaL. wrote:
Sigh. I was really happy with the game actually and didn't mind the ending that much (I liked Deus Ex a lot soo I guess that says something about me) but then I realized my galactic readiness was 50%. I never really thought about it and just figured it would go up as I got nearer to the end but lo and behold you have to play multi for it? Wtf? Fuckin balls man now I have to go play multi and the closest save I have to before the ending is like 4 hours before the finish.. wtf bioware. How/why is multiplayer supposed to help the single player campaign?


Supposedly you can use either multiplayer or single player side missions. Your galactic readiness ultimately doesn't matter, it's your total effective military strength that determines your outcome, so you can get by just fine with a lower readiness and more war assets.


Are you sure? The way I understood it, you need 5000 total points to get the most "complete" ending. To get that total point, you need to multiply the military poins with the galactic readiness %. AFAIK, as of now galactic readiness can only be increased by multiplayer, although in the future they are planning to allow different means to increase it, but still not through single-player, but more through iOS apps, possibly DLCs, Facebook games, etc etc. As such, if you don't increase your galactic readiness (50% by default) through multiplayer, won't you need 10000 military points to get to the 5000 total points? Is the 10000 points even a reachable number, I don't think there is that many sidequests in the game?

There is also an option of editing your savegame by editing the coalesced.bin file from what I have heard, but that's not an option that a lot of players would be willing to pursue.

you dont need 10000 pts to get + Show Spoiler +
shepard to live
I think...

tbh if the + Show Spoiler +
mass relays + tech shit didnt get all destroyed
i'd be pretty ok with the ending, itd be like halo 3's
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
toemn
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany915 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 20:10:53
March 11 2012 20:10 GMT
#1585
so how many endings are there?

+ Show Spoiler +
anderson survives / dies
control / destroy / merge
sheppard dies / survives


are these the only variations?

also some questions:

+ Show Spoiler +
some people claim that the 2 squadmember which you bring to the final mission die when the citadel laster beam hits. i just reloaded that savegame and i can't find any crewmember dead on the ground, only cortez died i think.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Orcasgt24
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada3238 Posts
March 11 2012 20:27 GMT
#1586
On March 12 2012 05:10 toemn wrote:
so how many endings are there?

+ Show Spoiler +
anderson survives / dies
control / destroy / merge
sheppard dies / survives


are these the only variations?

also some questions:

+ Show Spoiler +
some people claim that the 2 squadmember which you bring to the final mission die when the citadel laster beam hits. i just reloaded that savegame and i can't find any crewmember dead on the ground, only cortez died i think.


+ Show Spoiler +
I took Ashley and Garrus to that mission. After I made the choice and the ideos started one of the was the Normandy trying to outrun the blue light and failing. The ship crash lands and Joker walks out, followed shortly by Ashley. Shesomehow ended up on the Normandy after the Reapers raped mah face
In Hearthstone we pray to RNGesus. When Yogg-Saron hits the field, RNGod gets to work
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 20:38:38
March 11 2012 20:37 GMT
#1587


You know, I'd be more okay with it if they could just own up to it.

This is just sad.

:|

I know this isn't even Bioware's fault, it's EA's. That's what pisses me off the most.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
March 11 2012 20:39 GMT
#1588
On March 12 2012 05:37 Candadar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRRpGlmtws8&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2c92867FAAAAAAAABAA

You know, I'd be more okay with it if they could just own up to it.

This is just sad.

:|

I know this isn't even Bioware's fault, it's EA's. That's what pisses me off the most.


Well, maybe Bioware/EA is a lying company that wants to take money from its customers...

Like everyone knew ever since DA2 came out.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
March 11 2012 20:41 GMT
#1589
On March 12 2012 05:39 Praetorial wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 05:37 Candadar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRRpGlmtws8&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2c92867FAAAAAAAABAA

You know, I'd be more okay with it if they could just own up to it.

This is just sad.

:|

I know this isn't even Bioware's fault, it's EA's. That's what pisses me off the most.


Well, maybe Bioware/EA is a lying company that wants to take money from its customers...

Like everyone knew ever since DA2 came out.


Every company since the beginning of time has been trying to take money from their customers. That's the point of a business and that's why people go into business. This is shitting in our faces.
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
March 11 2012 20:43 GMT
#1590
On March 12 2012 05:41 Candadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 05:39 Praetorial wrote:
On March 12 2012 05:37 Candadar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRRpGlmtws8&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2c92867FAAAAAAAABAA

You know, I'd be more okay with it if they could just own up to it.

This is just sad.

:|

I know this isn't even Bioware's fault, it's EA's. That's what pisses me off the most.


Well, maybe Bioware/EA is a lying company that wants to take money from its customers...

Like everyone knew ever since DA2 came out.


Every company since the beginning of time has been trying to take money from their customers. That's the point of a business and that's why people go into business. This is shitting in our faces.

I don't even... Origin is bad enough, but this as well? Come on EA, what the hell? T.T
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 11 2012 20:46 GMT
#1591
On March 12 2012 02:02 Saoc wrote:
A classic example of cutting corners
http://i.imgur.com/ftUIY.jpg
Spoilers..

Who would expect anything else from a game made by EA?

EA and Activision do not care at ALL about the quality of the games they make. They just care about profits.

EA ruined Maxis, and no one batted an eye.

EA ruined WestWood, and again, no one batted an eye

EA ruined DICE, and still no one cared.

Well now EA's ruined Bioware. Please tell me things will be different this time. Please, PLEASE don't let any more developers or franchises be destroyed by EA.
Who called in the fleet?
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
March 11 2012 20:47 GMT
#1592
On March 12 2012 02:02 Saoc wrote:
A classic example of cutting corners
http://i.imgur.com/ftUIY.jpg
Spoilers..


Sigh.

I'm glad I bought the game because the first 95% of it was pretty decent.

But this is just endlessly making me lose hope. Not so much in Bioware, but what they let EA do to them.
zeru
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
8156 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 20:52:00
March 11 2012 20:51 GMT
#1593
--- Nuked ---
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
March 11 2012 20:57 GMT
#1594
On March 12 2012 05:51 zeru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 05:47 Candadar wrote:
On March 12 2012 02:02 Saoc wrote:
A classic example of cutting corners
http://i.imgur.com/ftUIY.jpg
Spoilers..


Sigh.

I'm glad I bought the game because the first 95% of it was pretty decent.

But this is just endlessly making me lose hope. Not so much in Bioware, but what they let EA do to them.

The only one in the pic that matters is Tali tbh. The rest is incredibly normal and no big deal. (excluding the ending obviously)


The 2d sprites of the bodies is straight up lazy, I can accept the kid being a scaled adult. However, the Tali shit? That's just straight up laziness. I feel a lot IS being blown out of proportion here -- but some of this is just unforgivable.
CobaltBlu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States919 Posts
March 11 2012 21:07 GMT
#1595
On March 12 2012 05:51 zeru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 05:47 Candadar wrote:
On March 12 2012 02:02 Saoc wrote:
A classic example of cutting corners
http://i.imgur.com/ftUIY.jpg
Spoilers..


Sigh.

I'm glad I bought the game because the first 95% of it was pretty decent.

But this is just endlessly making me lose hope. Not so much in Bioware, but what they let EA do to them.

The only one in the pic that matters is Tali tbh. The rest is incredibly normal and no big deal. (excluding the ending obviously)


The Tali pic is pretty bad. They could have gotten one of their concept artists to draw up something original instead of throwing together a photoshop job. I've seen high quality fan art that looks similar to that concept but looks tons better.

The 2d sprites and stuff are pretty crappy too but I can live with it. The one that gets me is the little window that pops up after you win that says "Commander Shepard has become a Legend...". Something about that message being at the end of the game + credits is so pathetic it makes me laugh.
Neeh
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway458 Posts
March 11 2012 21:16 GMT
#1596
I don't really see the need to throw a fit for anything but the tali image.

You find things like this is every game out there.

Then there's everything after the rush to the beam thingy at the end. I'm working on suppressing that..

Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 11 2012 21:19 GMT
#1597
On March 12 2012 06:07 CobaltBlu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 05:51 zeru wrote:
On March 12 2012 05:47 Candadar wrote:
On March 12 2012 02:02 Saoc wrote:
A classic example of cutting corners
http://i.imgur.com/ftUIY.jpg
Spoilers..


Sigh.

I'm glad I bought the game because the first 95% of it was pretty decent.

But this is just endlessly making me lose hope. Not so much in Bioware, but what they let EA do to them.

The only one in the pic that matters is Tali tbh. The rest is incredibly normal and no big deal. (excluding the ending obviously)


The Tali pic is pretty bad. They could have gotten one of their concept artists to draw up something original instead of throwing together a photoshop job. I've seen high quality fan art that looks similar to that concept but looks tons better.

The 2d sprites and stuff are pretty crappy too but I can live with it. The one that gets me is the little window that pops up after you win that says "Commander Shepard has become a Legend...". Something about that message being at the end of the game + credits is so pathetic it makes me laugh.

This wasnt in the pic, but there are signs with arrows pointing towards doors in the Normandy that are clearly just reflections of each other. Like, one sign is an arrow pointing right with readable text, and on the other side of the room is another sign, this one is an arrow pointing left, but it has mirrored text, as if they just flipped the image in MSPaint.

I took a computer graphics class in college, and made a simple video game in it. I would've gotten a C or worse if I pulled shit like that.
Who called in the fleet?
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 21:48:55
March 11 2012 21:47 GMT
#1598
Just finished the game; here is my confusion about the ending.

+ Show Spoiler +
Overall, I don't mind the ending, with the three choices. Yeah it was a cop out, but I was willing to accept it given everything the series had given thus far. What I have a problem is, even after the kid's explanation / ending cinematic / post-credit cinematic, I have no fucking clue what the hell happened.

I chose to control the synthetics, one reason being that I didn't want the Mass Relays to be destroyed. Too bad. In the ending cinematic, they all blow up. For some reason, Joker is in the Normandy trying to fly away from the explosions. Anyway, the Normandy crash lands, and out steps Joker, Ashley (love interest), and Javik (one of two final squad members). How the hell did Javik get on the Normandy after being blasted by the reaper, alongside me?? Where's the rest of the crew? If Javik could make it back onto the Normandy, shouldn't my other squad member, Liara, be able to too? Am I, Shepard, dead? Considering the two moons, the post-credit cinematic occurs on the planet they crash landed on (and not Earth), right? Then who the f is the kid?? Did Joker raise a family with MY Ashley or something?
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 11 2012 21:59 GMT
#1599
this game was just a mess. it had it moments, but the bad far outnumber the good.
starleague forever
Karliath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2214 Posts
March 11 2012 22:02 GMT
#1600
Is there a place I can find all of the possible ending combos? A chart, maybe?
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