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On September 26 2011 10:40 keyStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 10:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Qc2. I've analyzed this and it's perfectly fine. lol just trollin again... Qxc7+And reposting: On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XqIwc.png) + Show Spoiler +After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5. 1) 11. ... Qb7.This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GMije.png) We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier: 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pK3xc.png) Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5hYiq.png) I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage. 2) 11. ... Bd7.This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZHFp1.png) 3) 11. ... Kf8?!This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place. 11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U7K2p.png) We totally had to move to move the queen to a7! the rook move was a blunder!
Blunder? Where? Am I getting re-trolled?
On September 26 2011 09:23 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +oh shit i didnt analyze qb5
that looks NASTY for us
if we do my plan we get checkmated LOL
Guess this is an admission that you haven't bothered to read anyone else's hard work? lol...
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One choice and one choice only:
Qxd7+
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On September 26 2011 10:36 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 10:33 chesshaha wrote:12. Qxd7++ Show Spoiler +Like others are saying Qc2 is really bad. Again... time to pay for the move 10. Bxc6+, just a slow and painful process from now on. + Show Spoiler +You mean playing Qxc6+ right? Cuz this really doesn't have anything to do because of Bxc6; we could have also played 0-0 or Qxa7 instead of Qxc6.
+ Show Spoiler +No, on move 9 we played Bxc6+, we shoulda played 0-0.
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Qxd7+
I really don't think we need the full 3 days for this one.
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On September 26 2011 10:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Qc2. I've analyzed this and it's perfectly fine.  lol just trollin again... Qxc7+And reposting: Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous... + Show Spoiler +After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5. 1) 11. ... Qd7.This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier: 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage. 2) 11. ... Bd7.This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board. 3) 11. ... Kf8?!This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place. 11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O
If we play Qxc7 then he will play Qxc7 and he will be up a queen for 2 pawns. I know you don't actually intend to play that as your move, but still;;
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Let's start talking about our 13th move, assuming he plays + Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +Most people seem to want to go down a line like 13. a3 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 in the hopes of holding onto the extra pawn. I think this is a mistake. White will end up totally paralyzed after 15...Rb3 16. Re1 0-0 17. Re3 Rfb8 18. Rc3 R8b7. There does not seem to be any productive move white can play to get his rook and bishop into the action. Black will activate his king and it will probably be impossible for white to hold onto the pawn in the long run. I think we should play 13. 0-0 (finally). I think black has two critical options: 13...Nxd2 (I guess Bxd2 is the same) and 13...Bb5. Bb5 is probably weaker as it places his bishop on his open b file, making it easier for white to maintain his extra pawn. After 14. Re1 0-0 (I don't see any more aggressive move for black) 15. a3, white is well on the way to consolidating his extra pawn. 13...N/Bxd2 leaves white with an important choice: do we want to end up with an opposite colored bishop and rook ending or a knight and rook against bishop and rook ending? For reasons I will explain, I think the opposite bishops give us chances to win and no chance to lose, so I prefer maintaining our bishop, although it is a close call. So, the game will proceed: 14. Nxd2 Bxd2 15. Bxd2 Rxb2 16. Rfb1! this is the key move for us. We take control of the b file and wrest the initiative from black. + Show Spoiler +16...Rxd2 loses the exchange after 17. Rb8+ Ke7 18. Rxh8 (although further analysis may be warrranted as after 18...Rxd4 black's c and d pawns could be dangerous. However, I think white can stop the pawns and come out ahead in this ending. If black plays 16...Rxb1, white wins back a pawn after 17. Rxb1 0-0 (17...Ke7 is no better) 18. Rb7, so black will likely play 16...Rb6. Then, after 17. Ba5 (this is why we keep the B instead of the N) Rxb1 18. Rxb1, I don't see a way for black to avoid giving us a pawn back because the threat of Rb7 is impossible to meet.
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On September 26 2011 12:47 hype[NZ] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 10:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Qc2. I've analyzed this and it's perfectly fine. lol just trollin again... Qxc7+And reposting: On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous... + Show Spoiler +After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5. 1) 11. ... Qd7.This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier: 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage. 2) 11. ... Bd7.This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board. 3) 11. ... Kf8?!This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place. 11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O If we play Qxc7 then he will play Qxc7 and he will be up a queen for 2 pawns. I know you don't actually intend to play that as your move, but still;;
lol typo.... I edited, thanks
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On September 26 2011 12:50 EvilNalu wrote:Let's start talking about our 13th move, assuming he plays + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Most people seem to want to go down a line like 13. a3 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 in the hopes of holding onto the extra pawn. I think this is a mistake. White will end up totally paralyzed after 15...Rb3 16. Re1 0-0 17. Re3 Rfb8 18. Rc3 R8b7. There does not seem to be any productive move white can play to get his rook and bishop into the action. Black will activate his king and it will probably be impossible for white to hold onto the pawn in the long run. I think we should play 13. 0-0 (finally). I think black has two critical options: 13...Nxd2 (I guess Bxd2 is the same) and 13...Bb5. Bb5 is probably weaker as it places his bishop on his open b file, making it easier for white to maintain his extra pawn. After 14. Re1 0-0 (I don't see any more aggressive move for black) 15. a3, white is well on the way to consolidating his extra pawn. 13...N/Bxd2 leaves white with an important choice: do we want to end up with an opposite colored bishop and rook ending or a knight and rook against bishop and rook ending? For reasons I will explain, I think the opposite bishops give us chances to win and no chance to lose, so I prefer maintaining our bishop, although it is a close call. So, the game will proceed: 14. Nxd2 Bxd2 15. Bxd2 Rxb2 16. Rfb1! this is the key move for us. We take control of the b file and wrest the initiative from black. + Show Spoiler +16...Rxd2 loses the exchange after 17. Rb8+ Ke7 18. Rxh8 (although further analysis may be warrranted as after 18...Rxd4 black's c and d pawns could be dangerous. However, I think white can stop the pawns and come out ahead in this ending. If black plays 16...Rxb1, white wins back a pawn after 17. Rxb1 0-0 (17...Ke7 is no better) 18. Rb7, so black will likely play 16...Rb6. Then, after 17. Ba5 (this is why we keep the B instead of the N) Rxb1 18. Rxb1, I don't see a way for black to avoid giving us a pawn back because the threat of Rb7 is impossible to meet.
+ Show Spoiler +You're line (after 0-0) is interesting, and looks good for white, but black doesn't need to commit to it. The line 13. 0-0 Nxd2 14. Nxd2 0-0 looks fine for black: white has a bad Bishop stuck on the back rank and black has the bishop pairs and his rooks connected.
(14. Bxd2 doesn't quite work the same after 14...Rxb2 15. Rfb1 and then Rb6 and black equalizes and is in a safe position; note if black attempted this while the bishop is still on, white simply plays Ba6 and it looks good for white.)
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On September 26 2011 13:35 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 12:50 EvilNalu wrote:Let's start talking about our 13th move, assuming he plays + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Most people seem to want to go down a line like 13. a3 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 in the hopes of holding onto the extra pawn. I think this is a mistake. White will end up totally paralyzed after 15...Rb3 16. Re1 0-0 17. Re3 Rfb8 18. Rc3 R8b7. There does not seem to be any productive move white can play to get his rook and bishop into the action. Black will activate his king and it will probably be impossible for white to hold onto the pawn in the long run. I think we should play 13. 0-0 (finally). I think black has two critical options: 13...Nxd2 (I guess Bxd2 is the same) and 13...Bb5. Bb5 is probably weaker as it places his bishop on his open b file, making it easier for white to maintain his extra pawn. After 14. Re1 0-0 (I don't see any more aggressive move for black) 15. a3, white is well on the way to consolidating his extra pawn. 13...N/Bxd2 leaves white with an important choice: do we want to end up with an opposite colored bishop and rook ending or a knight and rook against bishop and rook ending? For reasons I will explain, I think the opposite bishops give us chances to win and no chance to lose, so I prefer maintaining our bishop, although it is a close call. So, the game will proceed: 14. Nxd2 Bxd2 15. Bxd2 Rxb2 16. Rfb1! this is the key move for us. We take control of the b file and wrest the initiative from black. + Show Spoiler +16...Rxd2 loses the exchange after 17. Rb8+ Ke7 18. Rxh8 (although further analysis may be warrranted as after 18...Rxd4 black's c and d pawns could be dangerous. However, I think white can stop the pawns and come out ahead in this ending. If black plays 16...Rxb1, white wins back a pawn after 17. Rxb1 0-0 (17...Ke7 is no better) 18. Rb7, so black will likely play 16...Rb6. Then, after 17. Ba5 (this is why we keep the B instead of the N) Rxb1 18. Rxb1, I don't see a way for black to avoid giving us a pawn back because the threat of Rb7 is impossible to meet. + Show Spoiler +You're line (after 0-0) is interesting, and looks good for white, but black doesn't need to commit to it. The line 13. 0-0 Nxd2 14. Nxd2 0-0 looks fine for black: white has a bad Bishop stuck on the back rank and black has the bishop pairs and his rooks connected.
(14. Bxd2 doesn't quite work the same after 14...Rxb2 15. Rfb1 and then Rb6 and black equalizes and is in a safe position; note if black attempted this while the bishop is still on, white simply plays Ba6 and it looks good for white.)
+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, good point. However, I think I still prefer the line after 14. Bxd2 Bxd2 15. Nxd2 Rxb2 16. Rfb1 Rb6 17. Nb3 0-0 18. Nc5 Bf5 19. Rb3 to the horrible bind we are in after 13. a3 and trying to keep the pawn.
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I really wanted to make 11... Kf8 work, but it just doesn't. Qd7 isn't all that bad, though.
Anyway. Guys. 11. Qxa7 would have been nothing too good for you. If black can't find anything he has like the easiest threefold move repetition draw out of all the possible lines. There was only one slight reason why it could be considered and only if you don't mind risking a 16 move drawn game.
And that if black can't find anything.
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+ Show Spoiler +After Qxd7, I'm going to assume its Bxd7.
From there, I suggest a3. 0-0 will lose our pawn advantage, as Bxd2 Nxd2 Nxd2 Bxd2 Rxb2, forcing us to move our bishop as well.
a3 will lead to either a5 or Bxd2. a5 gets answered with b4, completely improving our pawn structure and forcing his bishop away from the pin on our knight.
Bxd2, we should play Nxd2. Assuming Nxd2, Kxd2, protecting our b2 pawn still and freeing up our rook. No queen on the board means its safe to not castle imo. Especially in this case, as our minors should end up dropping off the board fairly quickly, leaving pawns a bishop and 2 rooks left each.
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12. Qxd7+
+ Show Spoiler +I spent lots of time this weekend checking out 11. Qxa7. This won't be useful analysis anymore, but it's still interesting how many possibilities it hides:
11. Qxa7 Bg4 12. Qa4 0-0 13. Qxc6 Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxd2+ 15. Bxd2 Nxd2 16. Kxd2 Rxd2+ and now, we are probably dead: if 17. Ke3 Qh4; if 17. Ke1 Qb8 and if 17. Kc1 Rxf2.
An improvement might be 11. Qxa7 Bg4 12. Qa4 0-0 13. Qc2 (possible as Black has no access to a6-f1 diagonal. Now the Queen guards b2 and d2, making castling an option.) 13...f6 14. a3. This line is still difficult for White; Black opens a file for f8 Rook while his White-squared Bishop is way stronger that ours (though after 14...Bxf3 15. axb4 Nxd2 16. Bxd2 Bxg2 17. Rg1 Be4 18. Qxc6 fxe5 19. Bg5 the position is unclear IMO.)
Now, on a current position: 12. Qxd7+
a) 12...Bxd7 13. 0-0 Nxd2 14. Bxd2 Bxd2 15. Nxd2 Rxb2 16. Nb3! Cuts off any vertical reinforcements that Rook could get and safeguards d4 pawn. We just gave back that extra pawn, but the plan of 17. Rfb1 Rc2 18. Rc1 Rd2 19. Rd1 Re2 20. Re1 perpetually chasing the active Rook leads either to draw or to a swap that is going to be a huge relief for our position.
b) 12...Kxd7 - is what I considered better for Black. Now the Bishop is going to sink at d3 and 13. 0-0 Ba6 14. Re1 leaves us with another annoying pin (14. Rd1 Be2 forces the Rook to e1 anyway). The difference comparing to the previous line is that Black has much more active Bishop and can get h8 Rook in the action in just one move. But still, I think the Knight blockade on b3 might work, because even if Black pressures this point, we can pitch a pawn by a2xb3 to win another one - a7!
Last but not least: bear in mind that all my analysis are done without making the moves on the board, so they indeed might sometimes be erratic. Feel free to make corrections on them!
@aphorism - I think 0-0 is not only a fine move: it's kind of necessity before Black blocks it with Bishop. If our King stays in the center, then all our pieces are going to be out of play - which might even lead to mid-game zugzwang in the end (like in Alekhine - Nimozvich, San Remo 1930 game:
+ Show Spoiler [Black's nightmare] +
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12. QxQ
+ Show Spoiler +As for our next move, I'm not sure that castling would be a terrible idea. It would lose our pawn advantage, but it would help defend against the strong queenside attack we'd be facing should Ng5 go down that route. I haven't looked extensively at our options after castling, so I would love it if we could discuss this option further.
Also, Ng5, are you seriously looking that far ahead in this game? I would have no idea if I were walking into a 16-move draw...
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12. Qxd7
There really is no good alternative.
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aphorism wrote:
Also, Ng5, are you seriously looking that far ahead in this game? I would have no idea if I were walking into a 16-move draw...
No I meant if black doesn't find anything better he can play 11. Qxa7 Rb6, if white doesn't take their sweet time and lose another tempo with moving the queen back 12. whatever Ra6 13. Qb7 Rb6 14. Qa7 Ra6 15. Qb7 Rb6 16. Qa7 - draw 16 moves into the game.
But yes I analyze that deep, and when getting out of the opening much deeper if needed. For example, I needed to be familiar with the Rb6 idea in pretty much all the lines of this variant right when I played 3... Bc5. After all 4. c3 was one of the main lines, to which I prepared Nf6, and the line we went down all the way till you decided to Bxc6 was a book line. I had to be clear and keen on why and how Bxc6 doesn't lose me a the game and what I can do in the long term if it still happened. And that from the my 3rd move. That's just necessary opening preparation for correspondence chess. I won't even tell you the length of the longest endgame line I checked out (through not every sideline and thus not perfectly), because you probably wouldn't believe. For which I would not blame you.
I tried to find opening lines which aren't mainstream, as to bring something new to different levels of players who might join in, and I also tried to opt for the ones where we could pick up unusual plans. Since you evaded most of those this is probably going to be an endgame study. Which is something I don't mind at all, because I love endgames. I just hope a good chunk of the community is the same in that regard.
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On September 26 2011 18:32 Ng5 wrote:Show nested quote +aphorism wrote:
Also, Ng5, are you seriously looking that far ahead in this game? I would have no idea if I were walking into a 16-move draw... No I meant if black doesn't find anything better he can play 11. Qxa7 Rb6, if white doesn't take their sweet time and lose another tempo with moving the queen back 12. whatever Ra6 13. Qb7 Rb6 14. Qa7 Ra6 15. Qb7 Rb6 16. Qa7 - draw 16 moves into the game. I considered that line, but 12. Qa4 doesn't exactly lose a tempo, as it pins your Rook to the defense of c6 unless you take another move to defend it. The truth is, the draw line didn't seem like a huge risk to run either, as to cash it in, you'd also have to commit to a draw 16 moves into the game and that doesn't seem like your sort of thing to do.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.torre21.com/aulas/l21-b.jpg)
