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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 76

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hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
September 25 2011 23:58 GMT
#1501
On September 26 2011 08:50 Bill Murray wrote:
12. Qc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I have analyzed this move, and I see nothing wrong with it.
We keep all our pieces, go a pawn up, and are in a good position to still be able to castle on our king's side. What's not to love?


If you've analysed it then you should post your analysis. Both qrs and I have posted analysis showing that this move is not very good, did you not see that?
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 26 2011 00:03 GMT
#1502
+ Show Spoiler +
i REALLY don't see what he can do to stop us from doing something like b3, bb2 in followup here
i DO NOT want to trade away our queen in a game where we have way more minds to work on attacks and strategies, whereas he only has one
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 26 2011 00:05 GMT
#1503
On September 26 2011 08:58 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 08:50 Bill Murray wrote:
12. Qc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I have analyzed this move, and I see nothing wrong with it.
We keep all our pieces, go a pawn up, and are in a good position to still be able to castle on our king's side. What's not to love?


If you've analysed it then you should post your analysis. Both qrs and I have posted analysis showing that this move is not very good, did you not see that?

+ Show Spoiler +
So we're up on material, but are being threatened with pins, and you're scared we can't castle? Do we even NEED to castle? we can do a3 like you all will probably wrongly vote, or b3 like i'm suggesting here. he might not even DO ba6 to prevent us from castling. If he does, though, we should do b3.
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
September 26 2011 00:09 GMT
#1504
On September 26 2011 09:05 Bill Murray wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 08:58 hype[NZ] wrote:
On September 26 2011 08:50 Bill Murray wrote:
12. Qc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I have analyzed this move, and I see nothing wrong with it.
We keep all our pieces, go a pawn up, and are in a good position to still be able to castle on our king's side. What's not to love?


If you've analysed it then you should post your analysis. Both qrs and I have posted analysis showing that this move is not very good, did you not see that?

+ Show Spoiler +
So we're up on material, but are being threatened with pins, and you're scared we can't castle? Do we even NEED to castle? we can do a3 like you all will probably wrongly vote, or b3 like i'm suggesting here. he might not even DO ba6 to prevent us from castling. If he does, though, we should do b3.


+ Show Spoiler +
13. b3 Qb5 14. Qd1 Bc3 15. Rb1 Qd3 and white is going to lose at least an exchange.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 26 2011 00:23 GMT
#1505
+ Show Spoiler +
oh shit i didnt analyze qb5
that looks NASTY for us
if we do my plan we get checkmated LOL
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
wizard944
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
194 Posts
September 26 2011 00:24 GMT
#1506
12. Qc2
Kassar DeTemplari
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
September 26 2011 00:36 GMT
#1507
On September 26 2011 09:23 Bill Murray wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
oh shit i didnt analyze qb5
that looks NASTY for us
if we do my plan we get checkmated LOL





On September 26 2011 09:24 wizard944 wrote:
12. Qc2


If we end up playing 12. Qc2 then I'm probably going to vote 13. resign. As far as I can see 12.Qxd7+ is pretty much forced, hence my vote for:

12. Qxd7+

here's my previous post about why 12. Qc2 is bad, and other people have posted similar things.

On September 22 2011 14:35 hype[NZ] wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +
I'm not at a chessboard but I had a look at this last night. After 11.Qxc6+ Qd7 12.Qc2? then black can play 12...Ba6! and we have a whole bunch of problems. One possible continuation could be 13.a3 Qb5! (threatening mate in 1) 14.Qd1 and black has so much pressure against our king that it is probably winning and we are in a position where we have no good moves.
dtvu
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia687 Posts
September 26 2011 00:50 GMT
#1508
No Choice:
12. Qxd7+
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 26 2011 00:52 GMT
#1509
qc2
12 qxd7
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
September 26 2011 00:55 GMT
#1510
12. Qxd7+

+ Show Spoiler +
This move is essentially forced.
God Mode: Alt+F4
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 26 2011 01:00 GMT
#1511
12. QxQ. More or less the only move here.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 26 2011 01:22 GMT
#1512
12. Qxd7

+ Show Spoiler +
based on my previous analysis from here.

Also, anyone posting 12. Qc2, please provide some analysis as it looks very weak after
12 ...Ba6
13. a3 Qb5
14. Qd1 Ba5

(14...Qa5 let's white simply move back to Qc2, which looks like an improvement for white and allows for rb1)

and then:

15. Rb1? Qd3

16. b4 as any other move leads to mate,

i.e. 16. Ra1?? Nxd2 17. b4 (must be played else mate quickly from 17...Qe4+) ...Rxb4! 18. Nxd2 (18. axb4 Qe4+ 19. Kxd2 Bxb4#) ...Rb1 followed by the previously mentioned mate (note if 19. Qa5+ Ke7 and still mate)

16. b4 Nc3 17. Rb3 Bc4...etc)

or

15. b4? Nc3 16. a4 (I guess?) 17. Qd6 Ra3 18. Bxb4 and same as above.

or

15. Qc2?? Qe2#

or

15. a4 (possibly white's best move) ...Qc4 and maybe sack the e pawn to gain room for the knight?

But the point is, I see no good alternatives for white after 12. Qc2. If anyone else has evidence that points otherwise, I'd like to see it as I'd really like if there was a way to keep queen's on the board, but it doesn't appear to be that way.
Write your own song!
wuBu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States83 Posts
September 26 2011 01:24 GMT
#1513
12. Qxd7+
"It's the way that I'm living that makes me who I am. It's the things I do that you wouldn't understand."
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 01:39:41
September 26 2011 01:30 GMT
#1514
12. Qxd7+


mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 26 2011 01:32 GMT
#1515
On September 26 2011 10:30 keyStorm wrote:
12. resign, gg


I kinda want to see how qrs's graph will look like with one vote for this lol.
Write your own song!
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
September 26 2011 01:33 GMT
#1516
12. Qxd7+

+ Show Spoiler +
Like others are saying Qc2 is really bad. Again... time to pay for the move 10. Bxc6+, just a slow and painful process from now on.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 26 2011 01:36 GMT
#1517
On September 26 2011 10:33 chesshaha wrote:
12. Qxd7+

+ Show Spoiler +
Like others are saying Qc2 is really bad. Again... time to pay for the move 10. Bxc6+, just a slow and painful process from now on.


+ Show Spoiler +
You mean playing Qxc6+ right? Cuz this really doesn't have anything to do because of Bxc6; we could have also played 0-0 or Qxa7 instead of Qxc6.
Write your own song!
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
September 26 2011 01:38 GMT
#1518
On September 26 2011 10:32 mastergriggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2011 10:30 keyStorm wrote:
12. resign, gg


I kinda want to see how qrs's graph will look like with one vote for this lol.


lol


Sorry kinda went over emotional on that one

jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 04:27:16
September 26 2011 01:39 GMT
#1519
Qc2. I've analyzed this and it's perfectly fine.



lol just trollin again...

Qxd7+

And reposting:
On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:

Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous...

[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +

After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5.


1) 11. ... Qd7.

This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6
[image loading]

We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier:

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3
[image loading]

Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1
[image loading]

I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage.


2) 11. ... Bd7.

This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board.

[image loading]


3) 11. ... Kf8?!

This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place.

11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O
[image loading]

"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
September 26 2011 01:40 GMT
#1520
On September 26 2011 10:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Qc2. I've analyzed this and it's perfectly fine.



lol just trollin again...

Qxc7+

And reposting:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote:

Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous...

[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +

After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5.


1) 11. ... Qb7.

This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6
[image loading]

We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier:

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3
[image loading]

Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble.

11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1
[image loading]

I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage.


2) 11. ... Bd7.

This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board.

[image loading]


3) 11. ... Kf8?!

This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place.

11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O
[image loading]




We totally had to move to move the queen to a7! the rook move was a blunder!
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