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On August 26 2010 00:45 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 00:38 barbsq wrote:On August 26 2010 00:31 Southlight wrote:On August 26 2010 00:28 barbsq wrote:
yeah, i find kass v karthus to be ez mode for the kass, simply kus silence fucks up karth really bad, and he just megaspams lay waste, so you're force pulse is ALWAYS up I actually find good Karthus players mess with Kassadin pretty bad. well, i suppose the fact that i have yet to encounter some1 that gives me a problem 1v1 with kass to be pretty indicative of my current elo range I don't think it's a common occurrence even at "high" elo, considering so far I've only encountered one. The problem is that Lay Waste does a bazillion damage and cools down 9 times faster than your Q, and has similar (if not higher) range. A good Karthus punishes you HARD for trying to Q him, so you'll often end up wasting a lot of time dodging Qs, and of course getting hit hurts. And if you try to restore mana via W on creep he nails you anyways while regaining mana himself.
'Cause it seems people missed my post.
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On August 26 2010 00:54 Phrost wrote:
I cant remember where the post was to quote it but Urgot is suffering very much from Pantheon syndrome.
He's fairly strong early but his abilities scale so retardedly in 5 different directions that he really can't be effective at anything. I think the graphic and projectile speed for the noxxion corrosive charge needs to be tweaked.
i think he scales even worse than old panth.
hell, his q doesnt even have a 1:1 ad ratio, even spearshot (not to mention old hss) did more dmg and scaled better. The only thing he's got over old panth in terms of lategame scaling is that he gets significantly more tanky, more easily
edit: and south, here's my question again, since you seemed to have missed MY edit 
south, u get w during laning phase? i recall from somewhere that you felt it wasnt good enough to justify getting a point in it to delay q and e. Also, i dont seem to have problems spamming q in lane with my mp5 runes once im like lvl 4-5, so i dont see much need for it, where do u work it into your skillbuild?
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I get W at level 2 in solo lanes because I find E very situational (and rare that it gets charged) - I also have started opening Doran's Shield to compensate.
In a duo-lane I still stick with the R>E>Q>W order and open Ring.
With regards to runes I've been slowly cycling out mp5pl glyphs for magic pen glyphs, so... go figure, hahah.
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:o shield opening, ill try that sometime, ty for tips
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uhg, people are dumb about analyzing ability scaling ratios...
Urgot's Q is on what? a 1 second CD? Spear Shot was/is on a 4 second CD. If Urgot's Q has just 0.5 AD scaling (I don't know what it is actually, but it doesn't matter), it still has better scaling than spear shot because it's on 1/4 the CD. It's like when people bitch about Karthus's ratios, it makes me want to fucking throttle them, lol. your two damage dealing abilities are:
Q: 1 second CD
E: Damage/1 second
I don't care how 'bad' the raw ratios are when you can spam because what really matters is how your AP affects your DPS as a spammer. 0.3 ratio on lay waste is fucking retardedly good because you can shoot fucking 4 of them in the time it takes annie to shoot her Q with a 0.6 AP ratio. Like, your 0.3 is roughly twice as good as Annie's 0.6 because of CDs.[/rant]
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On August 26 2010 01:18 Mogwai wrote:
uhg, people are dumb about analyzing ability scaling ratios...
Urgot's Q is on what? a 1 second CD? Spear Shot was/is on a 4 second CD. If Urgot's Q has just 0.5 AD scaling (I don't know what it is actually, but it doesn't matter), it still has better scaling than spear shot because it's on 1/4 the CD. It's like when people bitch about Karthus's ratios, it makes me want to fucking throttle them, lol. your two damage dealing abilities are:
Q: 1 second CD
E: Damage/1 second
I don't care how 'bad' the raw ratios are when you can spam because what really matters is how your AP affects your DPS as a spammer. 0.3 ratio on lay waste is fucking retardedly good because you can shoot fucking 4 of them in the time it takes annie to shoot her Q with a 0.6 AP ratio. Like, your 0.3 is roughly twice as good as Annie's 0.6 because of CDs.[/rant]
except it does matter, since q has pathetic range and is hard to hit unless you have the lockon, and the grenade takes a bit of effort to hit as well, significantly more so than spear shot's q and click. Also, you only get about 3 hits in if you do hit the grenade, so i think the comparison is fairly fair
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His point is that you can argue about difficulty to use all you want, but it has little to do with AP ratio.
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On August 26 2010 01:05 Southlight wrote:
I get W at level 2 in solo lanes because I find E very situational (and rare that it gets charged) - I also have started opening Doran's Shield to compensate.
In a duo-lane I still stick with the R>E>Q>W order and open Ring.
With regards to runes I've been slowly cycling out mp5pl glyphs for magic pen glyphs, so... go figure, hahah.
in duo lane you max E first? do you do that in solo lane too?
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except that my original point was that its scaling is terrible, and some1 pointed out that urgot had 'pantheon syndrome', so i said that i actually think that his lategame scaling is even worse than panths, since his q's ad ratio is bad, combine that with the fact that it is harder to hit consistently than panth's q (and e for that matter) means that it scales worse than panth. I think i am fairly correct in saying this.
edit: to be fair tho, i didnt say originally that it was the combination of the two that meant that urgot's lategame << panth's and only referenced the ratio, so my bad mogwai
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I max Q most of the time solo lane because it's range vs range and poking > a charged spell that takes forever to charge. If you're against a spammer and you can comfortable get in range for E that's fine, but I've found even against Ezreal (spammerlicious) getting E charged and getting in range for it is significantly harder than just going Q.
In lane it's usually much easier to get E up, and it's more rewarding (cost vs mana etc.) to nail both opponents with E than it is to poke one with Q, especially considering how you level slower so you need to make hits count.
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On August 26 2010 01:30 barbsq wrote:
except that my original point was that its scaling is terrible, and some1 pointed out that urgot had 'pantheon syndrome', so i said that i actually think that his lategame scaling is even worse than panths, since his q's ad ratio is bad, combine that with the fact that it is harder to hit consistently than panth's q (and e for that matter) means that it scales worse than panth. I think i am fairly correct in saying this.
edit: to be fair tho, i didnt say originally that it was the combination of the two that meant that urgot's lategame << panth's and only referenced the ratio, so my bad mogwai
i think his point is that if you have one ability that hits 4 times as often as another, then when comparing how much damage a BF sword will add to your skill, you have to multiply the one that hits more often by four. scaling is a separate issue than how well you can hit with it. thats like saying EZ's Q scales poorly because its a skill shot
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On August 26 2010 01:35 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 01:30 barbsq wrote:
except that my original point was that its scaling is terrible, and some1 pointed out that urgot had 'pantheon syndrome', so i said that i actually think that his lategame scaling is even worse than panths, since his q's ad ratio is bad, combine that with the fact that it is harder to hit consistently than panth's q (and e for that matter) means that it scales worse than panth. I think i am fairly correct in saying this.
edit: to be fair tho, i didnt say originally that it was the combination of the two that meant that urgot's lategame << panth's and only referenced the ratio, so my bad mogwai i think his point is that if you have one ability that hits 4 times as often as another, then when comparing how much damage a BF sword will add to your skill, you have to multiply the one that hits more often by four. scaling is a separate issue than how well you can hit with it. thats like saying EZ's Q scales poorly because its a skill shot
Ez's mystic shot scales 100% damage with mystic shot.
Urgot's Q is like 60% weapon damage.
Also mystic shot has twice the range (about) and moves much faster with a smaller projectile (making it easier to sneak between creeps).
Urgot's can lock on and you can lob a few at them but the E is so slow its dumb trying to hit people with it.
tl;dr its another malzhar but his early game isnt that bad
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Hello Teamliquidians!
id like to share some of my recent experiences in lol,maybe u can help me out.
I have played like 600-700 games so far so im not totally newb,I usually play Nidalee and im quite decent with her.
I decided to try out other heroes and i bought ezreal,becoz i was foolish enough to get taunted by a reginald ez video.Anyway the deal is im totally garbage with ez,i mean the lowest d- category and i donno why.
My masteries:21/0/9
Runes:mark/quint:armor pen,others mp5/lvl
So far ive played like 30 games with ez and i won a total of 5 games.....how pathetic is that.And not becoz my allies are bad,sadly its me.
When im laning i cannot land mystic shots properly and everybody is just streamrolling me.This kinda squshiness is entirely different than anything ive ever experience in league of legends.I simply dont posess health!lol
So what do u guys think i should do?Drop ez for good and never look back?How come others like reginald are soo good with ez.Like 3 shotting everything on his way and im not....
Any advice would be appreciated.
ps:oh btw i play ad ez,building him as:dorans'blade+pot,longsword>brutalizer,pickaxe,bfsword and stuff.Sometimes i buy a phage too.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
8-3 with dps kassadin lolol carried
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On August 26 2010 01:45 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 01:35 Orpheos wrote:On August 26 2010 01:30 barbsq wrote:
except that my original point was that its scaling is terrible, and some1 pointed out that urgot had 'pantheon syndrome', so i said that i actually think that his lategame scaling is even worse than panths, since his q's ad ratio is bad, combine that with the fact that it is harder to hit consistently than panth's q (and e for that matter) means that it scales worse than panth. I think i am fairly correct in saying this.
edit: to be fair tho, i didnt say originally that it was the combination of the two that meant that urgot's lategame << panth's and only referenced the ratio, so my bad mogwai i think his point is that if you have one ability that hits 4 times as often as another, then when comparing how much damage a BF sword will add to your skill, you have to multiply the one that hits more often by four. scaling is a separate issue than how well you can hit with it. thats like saying EZ's Q scales poorly because its a skill shot Ez's mystic shot scales 100% damage with mystic shot. Urgot's Q is like 60% weapon damage. Also mystic shot has twice the range (about) and moves much faster with a smaller projectile (making it easier to sneak between creeps). Urgot's can lock on and you can lob a few at them but the E is so slow its dumb trying to hit people with it. tl;dr its another malzhar but his early game isnt that bad
i wasnt arguing that urdot is good. i was just making a point about how comparing damage scaling between abilities is not as simple as reading their tooltips.
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*Starts out a game as 13-1 Akali*
*Notices team only has 13 kills total*
*Notices enemy team has 20 kills*
Fuck this game so much sometimes oh my god.
AND OH MY GOD OUR XIN JUST DIED TO CREEPS IN A FUCKING LANE WITH NO ENEMY AROUND OH MY GOD
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I do understand his original point, and i did think about this, but maybe it didnt convey as well as i thought.
To accurately gauge how well q does dmg to ppl, you have to take E into consideration too, since its basically the only way to consistently hit a person with it. E has an 11 sec cooldown and 5 second duration. Q has a 2 second cooldown. i should note that despite this, the max number of times ive been able to lock on to some1 has been 3 times, so i think this is the best number to use. the AD ratio on his q is .7 at all levels, so in the space of 16 seconds, you do 2.1x AD
meanwhile, panth's q is single target, so we dont even have to mess with another skill to consistently hit with it, so its just 4 seconds @ 1.6 ratio (at lvl 5, we are comparing lategame here) which means that in that 16 seconds, you are doing 6.4x AD
you can increase urgot's maybe by a little bit since you might hit 1 or 2 in that 11 sec cooldown, but this would only get you to about 3-4x AD, which is still not even as much as panth's. Also, im assuming that the panth info is still good, since only his mana cost changed on the ss.
Urgot info: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Urgot_The_Headman's_Pride
Panth info: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Pantheon_The_Artisan_of_War
and finally, even if you did want to compare both of their q's and assume that urgot's hits every time, its still 1.4x AD vs 1.6x AD on panth. Also, i didnt take into account the base dmg on both of their q's since we are talking about scaling but urgot's q @ lvl 5 does 150 and panth's does 70, so i figured the AD in lategame would talk more than the base dmg.
EDIT: i think the best thing to take away from this is that building urgot like a glass cannon is just stupid, rofl. Plz build tanky items on him, kus he is most benefitial for that 15% dmg reduction, an excellent slow and shield, and an ult that can be very useful during teamfights (and sometimes as initiation, though intelligently and sparingly i think).
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How do you guys suggest building Singed?
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On August 26 2010 01:47 pokerface wrote:
Hello Teamliquidians!
id like to share some of my recent experiences in lol,maybe u can help me out.
I have played like 600-700 games so far so im not totally newb,I usually play Nidalee and im quite decent with her.
I decided to try out other heroes and i bought ezreal,becoz i was foolish enough to get taunted by a reginald ez video.Anyway the deal is im totally garbage with ez,i mean the lowest d- category and i donno why.
My masteries:21/0/9
Runes:mark/quint:armor pen,others mp5/lvl
So far ive played like 30 games with ez and i won a total of 5 games.....how pathetic is that.And not becoz my allies are bad,sadly its me.
When im laning i cannot land mystic shots properly and everybody is just streamrolling me.This kinda squshiness is entirely different than anything ive ever experience in league of legends.I simply dont posess health!lol
So what do u guys think i should do?Drop ez for good and never look back?How come others like reginald are soo good with ez.Like 3 shotting everything on his way and im not....
Any advice would be appreciated.
ps:oh btw i play ad ez,building him as:dorans'blade+pot,longsword>brutalizer,pickaxe,bfsword and stuff.Sometimes i buy a phage too.
run flash/ghost? my death rate went dramatically down when i started going flash/ghost
you seem to be doing things mostly right, altho i recommend 0/9/21 on ez, simply cause SOS is bomb, and you dont really need 21 in offensive to deal significant dmg in lane. Also, remember that ez is a RANGED hero and that you can use auto attacks to harass, not just q. If the enemy is really good about staying behind creeps, i just use auto attacks to whittle him down and use q to last hit. Then, when he gets in bad position, e right next to him and q his face off as he tries to run and has no creep support.
note: this laning strategy assumes that you are fighting another ranged dps, or some1 like karth or annie. This wont work against some1 like morde. Those types would love for you to get right next to them, so dont do that.
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On August 26 2010 01:58 barbsq wrote:I do understand his original point, and i did think about this, but maybe it didnt convey as well as i thought. To accurately gauge how well q does dmg to ppl, you have to take E into consideration too, since its basically the only way to consistently hit a person with it. E has an 11 sec cooldown and 5 second duration. Q has a 2 second cooldown. i should note that despite this, the max number of times ive been able to lock on to some1 has been 3 times, so i think this is the best number to use. the AD ratio on his q is .7 at all levels, so in the space of 16 seconds, you do 2.1x AD meanwhile, panth's q is single target, so we dont even have to mess with another skill to consistently hit with it, so its just 4 seconds @ 1.6 ratio (at lvl 5, we are comparing lategame here) which means that in that 16 seconds, you are doing 6.4x AD you can increase urgot's maybe by a little bit since you might hit 1 or 2 in that 11 sec cooldown, but this would only get you to about 3-4x AD, which is still not even as much as panth's. Also, im assuming that the panth info is still good, since only his mana cost changed on the ss. Urgot info: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Urgot_The_Headman's_PridePanth info: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Pantheon_The_Artisan_of_Warand finally, even if you did want to compare both of their q's and assume that urgot's hits every time, its still 1.4x AD vs 1.6x AD on panth. Also, i didnt take into account the base dmg on both of their q's since we are talking about scaling but urgot's q @ lvl 5 does 150 and panth's does 70, so i figured the AD in lategame would talk more than the base dmg. EDIT: i think the best thing to take away from this is that building urgot like a glass cannon is just stupid, rofl. Plz build tanky items on him, kus he is most benefitial for that 15% dmg reduction, an excellent slow and shield, and an ult that can be very useful during teamfights (and sometimes as initiation, though intelligently and sparingly i think).
Urgot's range on Q (at least after he hits with E) is way greater than Panth's spear. And it also slows or something (does it apply on hit or what? I still don't fully get his stupid abilities).
Anyway, w/e, I agree with your conclusion. The best Urgot I saw yesterday built purely as a tank and he still felt like he hit hella hard, which is mostly because of what you pointed out at the end about base damage scaling. Over 4 seconds, Urgot's Q does 300 base vs. 70 base for Panth, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz, once again, let's make something that doesn't need scaling to completely outclass Pantheon so that they can build straight fucking tank and still hit harder than me until I have like 400 AD or some ridiculous bullshit like that.
Riot: herpdederp, Panth is good because he scales well with AD (read: shitty) items!
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EPT
