EPTAlmost felt like making a thread about this myself but then i finally got my prize money T.T
Prize money in Starcraft 2 - Page 55
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mOOnGLaDe
Australia49 Posts
Almost felt like making a thread about this myself but then i finally got my prize money T.T | ||
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
I've always had this feeling about Starcraft 2 when the first moneyed interests were being developed with big tournament prizes. It's sickening that big sponsorship companies will provide the money necessary enough for the venue because it affects THEIR marketing and business, but when it comes to rewarding the very clearly described tournament prizes they will act as if the tournament never existed. Why? Because they use the fact that posts like this won't exist and the gamers can be kept quiet with countless runarounds. Also, you can really delay any type of payment if your only form of communication is email, it's basically like saying, "I know you don't want to pay me and there's really no way to hold you accountable." Fuckers need to be held accountable for fraud because that is what it is--stealing. If a gamer stole a can of Monster energy drink or Stride gum they'd be hung out to dry for their theft. Good luck to those trying to make a LIVING wage off of tournaments. What I'd like to know is how gamers on teams with sponsors make wages? Are they the same way with promising and not delivering on your paycheck? I can guess it depends on how popular you are within the community. | ||
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Destructor
United States18 Posts
Accordingly, if the community wants to solve this problem, there needs to be a site set up (it could even be a page on liquipedia, to encourage immediate and widespread community contribution) which tracks the reliability of tournaments paying their players. I propose that, if the community really wants to "fix" this issue, that we do something about. My proposal is that we create an SC2 version of consumer reports, or http://www.politifact.com/. Obviously this wouldn't require nearly as many resources or the same sort of analysis as politifact, which has to vet myriad statements against facts which may be unclear to begin with. Going forward, we would only really need to keep track of how long tournament organizers take to pay out prize pools. Accordingly, if certain organizers are shown to have a history of taking too long to pay out, or are unwilling/unable to pay out altogether, then that tournament organization would be assigned a lower reliability rating. A reliability scale of something like the following could be established: Highly Reliable -- pays out quickly, or as agreed upon. Reliable -- mostly good with a few instances of paying out later than agreed. Unreliable -- frequently pays out much later than agreed. Atrocious -- frequently pays out much later than agreed, AND, at least in some instances, refuses to pay out altogether. If a tournament organizer feels that they've been rated unfairly, then they can present their side of the story. When information is made publicly known, it tends to discourage bad behavior and encourage good behavior. I think it's fair to say that the community pre-hype of a tournament goes a long way towards its success or failure with respect to viewership. As fans, we (rightly) hype up tournaments for a lot of reasons -- because it has a strong player pool, a compelling narrative, or just because there's a ton of money on the line. If we had a tournament reliability rating system in place, we could severely undercut the pre-hype of any tournament/organizer with an 'atrocious' track record of paying out. More generally, the existence of watchdog instruments tend to improve behavior across the board. In sum, this system is a relatively simple way by which the community can put real pressure on tournaments to pay the players we pay (or ad-stream in to) to see. | ||
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
On November 01 2011 00:54 eXigent. wrote: I personally would seek legal methods regarding the bigger sums of money. Threatening to take these companies to court in a case where you will 100% win, they will have no choice other than pay you now, or risk going to court and damaging their companies name. I feel as though they think they can push gamers around because we do not have anyone backing us legally. I would most certainly persue that route if someone owed me 2000 euros. Could someone explain to me the legal processes and complications that could arise from sueing a company cross-country/continent. For instance if I wish to sue a european tournament for not paying up and I reside in America would that entail complications with diplomatic immunity ect. This is all hypothetical as I am just always curioius about law. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On November 01 2011 10:22 R3demption wrote: Could someone explain to me the legal processes and complications that could arise from sueing a company cross-country/continent. For instance if I wish to sue a european tournament for not paying up and I reside in America would that entail complications with diplomatic immunity ect. This is all hypothetical as I am just always curioius about law. Not 100% sure, but you should be able to sue them in federal court and get a judgment (with documentation this is not very hard to get if you're in the right). As far as collection procedures... that's a different game I'm not particularly familiar with but I would expect there is something in place. Likewise, you could probably sue them in a European court in their home jurisdiction, which would probably make the collection aspect far easier.... but I can't really say as I'm trained in common law and not civil law so the procedure for that is not something I know off the top of my head. | ||
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Hipsv
135 Posts
On November 01 2011 10:22 R3demption wrote: Could someone explain to me the legal processes and complications that could arise from sueing a company cross-country/continent. For instance if I wish to sue a european tournament for not paying up and I reside in America would that entail complications with diplomatic immunity ect. This is all hypothetical as I am just always curioius about law. There is no diplomatic immunity unless it is granted. If you fly somewhere for a tournament you are subject to the laws of that country, as such the tournament organizers are subject to the laws of that country as well, so you follow the legal process in said country. The downside is its extremely expensive and can be very abstract depending on the country its held in. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Destructor
United States18 Posts
On November 01 2011 10:22 R3demption wrote: Could someone explain to me the legal processes and complications that could arise from sueing a company cross-country/continent. For instance if I wish to sue a european tournament for not paying up and I reside in America would that entail complications with diplomatic immunity ect. This is all hypothetical as I am just always curioius about law. There wouldn't be diplomatic immunity, but bringing lawsuits is INCREDIBLY expensive. If you win 2k in a tournament, it will cost you many times that in legal fees before the suit is concluded. As a general rule, bringing suit should always be viewed as a last resort. | ||
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CerpinTaxt848
United States3 Posts
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Enhancer_
Canada320 Posts
On November 01 2011 09:30 Xeris wrote: Speaking as someone who has hosted a major tournament (NASL), I definitely know all the hurdles you have to go through to pay out a major tournament, especially when you're getting money from sponsors. We had in our contract that all prizes would be paid within (60) days of the tournament close, and we did this for all except 3 people (one being DarkForcE), but we did get all the money out to everyone who needed it within 2 weeks of our deadline. I think the most important thing however, is for the organization to be in contact with the players about their prize money. As a former competitive player, I know how frustrating it is to win a tournament and wonder when the prize money is coming. I also think that players generally are pretty understanding if you are up front about the issues that are involved with paying out a prize pool. So as long as the tournament organizers are open and honest, and they are the ones making the effort, I think that's good. MLG does an awesome job of this btw. I like this and hope the example is learned and followed. I also hope it's true  .On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote: I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol. That's just nasty... The only way a tournament organization can be seen in a negative light is if they don't put in the required effort, as perhaps best idealized by Xeris' example. A complaint shouldn't be acted on with threats, it should be noted, understood, and fixed fairly with respect to both the organizers and the players. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On November 01 2011 10:28 Destructor wrote: There wouldn't be diplomatic immunity, but bringing lawsuits is INCREDIBLY expensive. If you win 2k in a tournament, it will cost you many times that in legal fees before the suit is concluded. As a general rule, bringing suit should always be viewed as a last resort. A simple contract violation would probably take a day or two for someone like me to write a complaint and a motion for a summary judgment and augment it with the correct paperwork. (I spent my last summer working for a federal judge). I doubt I'd have to charge more than 2k for that work (once I'm barred, of course). Also, the legal fees may not be a concern in Europe as much as in the US because I believe most civil law countries require the loser to pay lawyer's fees, along with some US states. I know the US state of New York does because we awarded them to a winning party for a case I did some work on. So IEM New York, if it were sued, would not incur you any legal fees if you win. You'd really have nothing to lose, and your lawyer would be zealous in his representation knowing he'll get paid for every hour he puts in if you win. | ||
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theBizness
United States696 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
I know poker is a whole different world, but when you win some event at WSOP in vegas, even if it's over 1 million, they give you a check you can cash it right away and you have the money in ur bank account I remember a year ago when Huk told me he didn't get his MLG 1st prize and it had been like 2 months or something, that's ridiculous, it's not even a big sum of money | ||
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Goliath0nline
Canada165 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
But as eSports get bigger this kind of thing won't be able to happen anymore and these tournaments will no longer exist. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On November 01 2011 10:22 R3demption wrote: Could someone explain to me the legal processes and complications that could arise from sueing a company cross-country/continent. For instance if I wish to sue a european tournament for not paying up and I reside in America would that entail complications with diplomatic immunity ect. This is all hypothetical as I am just always curioius about law. That depends on a lot of things like venue jurisdiction (where will the dispute be ajudicated?) and contracts. I'm not sure if players sign contracts with tournaments, but most such contracts require that you agree that the venue for any case will be in a place of the tournament's/business's choice, generally in the same country as the venue or a place with a very favorable legal environment for big business. Diplomatic immunity is not an issue in your hypo; it applies in situations involving diplomats or other high officials (e.g. to French Ambassador to the U.S. while in the U.S.); a contract dispute involving parties in different countries is not an unusual occurrence and is pretty bread-and-butter contract law. Usually such matters are decided wherever the incident in question occurred for evidentiary reasons, though arguments can be made by good lawyers for why it should be held in (your example) the US. Say, for example, because that is where the original false representation was made and seen by the player (e.g. by seeing an ad for the tournament or getting an e-mail invite to the tournament while the player was in the US). But this is all moot-- the legal costs of such an action would dwarf the prize money. $200/hour for a decent American lawyer, conservatively, would lend itself to about 25 hours total of representation before moving past the $5K mark, which is on the very high end of tourny prizes. 25 hours is not likely to be enough time to work on an international contract dispute. Right now SC2 prizepools are small potatoes in the grand scheme of the business world, and public relations campaigns are probably the best way to get this sort of issue settled. -- Just a note this is not legal advice as I'm a law student and not a licensed attorney. If you ever consider such an action you should consult a lawyer about your chances before making a decision. | ||
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Ledcaveman
100 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On November 01 2011 00:57 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: What if 90% of them quit hosting tours, you think the 10% will be enough? 10% of the tournaments will recieve 900% viewership boost so yea thatd be a good thing overall. Although i guess it would be harder for average pros like yourself to make any money(no offense intended) in that case. | ||
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
On November 01 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote: btw it has been proven one of the absolute best ways to get tourneys to reform/pay money is to publicly out them. It is of course met with tourneys saying "you are hurting esports" and threats of "we won't invite you any more" but if people are willing to run the risk of being unfairly punished for the poor behavior of tourneys we eventually will see a day when tourneys that don't pay / don't respect deadlines will be punished. Dunno if you're being sarcastic - Its always hard to know with you - But this really is the case, like every 6 months there's a thread like this, and every time the organizers rush in to control the damage and promise express payouts It seems that all Cloud got, was a PM saying that he won't be invited to the next cup - rofl, what in the fuck ESWC? They clearly have no idea how the Starcraft community works.. What a douchebag move On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote: I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol. | ||
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