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On November 01 2011 11:08 Destructor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:00 Athox wrote: I'll just throw out a warning here to all the people who are crying for a "governing" body.
The way it is right now, is completely wild west. Which at this point in time is a really good thing. E-sports is such a young industry that we haven't even explored half of the possibilities. Putting a governing body on top of that would essentially lock it in place either now or down the road when the rules take over, and it would kill innovation.
I agree. I made a a spur of the moment suggestion, but I'd love to hear what you've got in mind.
Your suggestion is still governing to some extent, as it judges. But I see what you're trying to say, and it's far ahead of most of the other suggestions in this thread.
I don't think the tournaments are the enemy though. They are also a party in this, and need to be protected equally.
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Wow that's super fucked up. Like a few posts above said, if they keep on getting away with it without the community getting mad and possibly starting a boycott for their events, they will not change their ways. We should have a blacklisted tournament list to show what tournaments take way too long to pay or worst of all haven't even paid yet for almost an entire year...that's complete bullshit and a kick in the nuts to the professional players who train so hard for these events.
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I will not support EWSC any longer after hearing about all of these stories.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote: Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote: I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg) Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
Disgusting.
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On November 01 2011 11:16 Athox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:08 Destructor wrote:On November 01 2011 11:00 Athox wrote: I'll just throw out a warning here to all the people who are crying for a "governing" body.
The way it is right now, is completely wild west. Which at this point in time is a really good thing. E-sports is such a young industry that we haven't even explored half of the possibilities. Putting a governing body on top of that would essentially lock it in place either now or down the road when the rules take over, and it would kill innovation.
I agree. I made a a spur of the moment suggestion, but I'd love to hear what you've got in mind. Your suggestion is still governing to some extent, as it judges. But I see what you're trying to say, and it's far ahead of most of the other suggestions in this thread.
Governing only happens when you have the ability to exclude. A rating system merely gives guidance to players. If they still want to play in a tournament that is blacklisted due to untrustworthy behavior, you don't have to put in your bylaws that they are prohibited from doing so. That would be the difference between a governing body and simply an oversight group.
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On November 01 2011 11:18 LovE-z33k wrote: I will not support EWSC any longer after hearing about all of these stories. Dude, First of all its ESWC. Second, They are in the clear. Why so mad bro?
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WTF are teams for if they can't even get your money from tournaments?
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Man this whole thing is just terrible, I'm no lawyer but something obviously needs to be set up to make sure that tournaments are paying the money they owe to the people who are the stars of their events.
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On November 01 2011 11:19 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:16 Athox wrote:On November 01 2011 11:08 Destructor wrote:On November 01 2011 11:00 Athox wrote: I'll just throw out a warning here to all the people who are crying for a "governing" body.
The way it is right now, is completely wild west. Which at this point in time is a really good thing. E-sports is such a young industry that we haven't even explored half of the possibilities. Putting a governing body on top of that would essentially lock it in place either now or down the road when the rules take over, and it would kill innovation.
I agree. I made a a spur of the moment suggestion, but I'd love to hear what you've got in mind. Your suggestion is still governing to some extent, as it judges. But I see what you're trying to say, and it's far ahead of most of the other suggestions in this thread. Governing only happens when you have the ability to exclude. A rating system merely gives guidance to players. If they still want to play in a tournament that is blacklisted due to untrustworthy behavior, you don't have to put in your bylaws that they are prohibited from doing so. That would be the difference between a governing body and simply an oversight group.
The thing is, it only rates tournaments. As if tournaments are the enemy. And it only deals with this specific problem of prize money payouts. Tournament organizers aren't always the ones to blame.
And rating systems are a mild form of exclusion. Don't underestimate mass mentality.
While I like the idea (Artosis style thumbs down), I don't think it's the way to go.
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On November 01 2011 11:05 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:02 Arkless wrote: I must be naive. But I would think when you sign the tourney rules/contract there would/should be prize winning details. Like an exact date of when you get paid, on the other hand. It's your obligation to make sure that there are such terms in place. And if there isn't, either a) request one in writing b) don't compete
I know you're all gonna say "Tons of tournies don't have contracts, etc" I know, that's your risk. But as far as something as big as an IEM I personally just assumed that info would be in the players contract. Hence why I must be naive. This shit happens all the time in every kind of sport/promotion. Boxers and mma fighters probably getting the worst of it. By them merely advertising a prize pool and you playing in the tournament with the expectation of receiving a prize, they have entered into a legally enforceable contract. Just fyi. There is no need for a "paper" contract. Well I agree, but if there is no other info on how/when prize pool is to be paid. Then you should contact the admin for said info. Screencap or save it, what have u. If he can't or won't answer, then he is probably a shyster not worth playing for to begin with.
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The thing is, there is no way this will end until the players decide they've had enough.
It's pretty evident from the amount of pros posting in this topic (there has been quite a few) they are well aware of the risk of not being paid. They accept it as part of the job. Most of them aren't in SC2 for the money and if then only a few can survive off purely tournament winnings as it is.
Assuming most of the tournaments they play in are economically viable paying them on time, if all the top players got together and started sitting out the slow payers would be choked out. But as it stands guys are willing to take less money (net; in the long run) to do something they love. It's a fine stance to have at this point, and I don't hold it against them.
Morally I think we all agree they deserve their prizes within reasonable AP timelines (30-60 days) but realistically the players know the risk but accept them to do something they love doing.
That's also why a blacklist won't work... the players aren't stupid, they have more insight into tournaments and their organizers than we do. They talk to other players who haven't been paid. It's shitty but they're bearing a risk. They just know it's part of the job. At this point its unlikely they sit out an event with a reasonable cash prize because it's on the blacklist.
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Have your team contract with a lawyer with respect to these cases. Even though you never have to use the lawyer, you can make his/her presence known and use him/her as a bargaining tool.
In the same way universities often have lawyers who represent them in defamation, sexual harassment, criminal regards, a team of gamers could do the same thing, even if the lawyer is only chosen to represent you and is not often used.
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On November 01 2011 11:23 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:05 BluePanther wrote:On November 01 2011 11:02 Arkless wrote: I must be naive. But I would think when you sign the tourney rules/contract there would/should be prize winning details. Like an exact date of when you get paid, on the other hand. It's your obligation to make sure that there are such terms in place. And if there isn't, either a) request one in writing b) don't compete
I know you're all gonna say "Tons of tournies don't have contracts, etc" I know, that's your risk. But as far as something as big as an IEM I personally just assumed that info would be in the players contract. Hence why I must be naive. This shit happens all the time in every kind of sport/promotion. Boxers and mma fighters probably getting the worst of it. By them merely advertising a prize pool and you playing in the tournament with the expectation of receiving a prize, they have entered into a legally enforceable contract. Just fyi. There is no need for a "paper" contract. Well I agree, but if there is no other info on how/when prize pool is to be paid. Then you should contact the admin for said info. Screencap or save it, what have u. If he can't or won't answer, then he is probably a shyster not worth playing for to begin with.
Technically they'd owe it upon the completion of the tournament, without an agreement otherwise. Although at this point you're getting into specifics. This is the point where you kinda need a lawyer to look through the law of the specific jurisdiciton. But generally speaking, they owe it upon completion of the tournament and would owe you interest from that point to when you get a court judgment against them.
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This whole thing is seriously just ridiculous. It's completely unprofessional and these companies who don't pay are quite literally just pocketing that money and all the profits and just getting away with it while continuing to run more tournaments. Quite surprising nothing is really being done about it.
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After reading ever single post in this thread through the course of the evening and focusing on Tyler's in particular, I feel the only constructive thing I have to add that hasn't been mentioned is a piece by Benjamin Franklin, with some parts bolded that seem like they are applicable here..
+ Show Spoiler +To my Friend A. B.
As you have desired it of me, I write the following Hints, which have been of Service to me, and may, if observed, be so to you.
Remember that TIME is Money. He that can earn Ten Shillings a Day by his Labour, and goes abroad, or sits idle one half of that Day, tho' he spends but Sixpence during his Diversion or Idleness, ought not to reckon That the only Expence; he has really spent or rather thrown away Five Shillings besides.
- (No regard for players having to contact and continue inquiries on their own accord - using time is money as a base, this in itself is costing the players money.)
Remember that CREDIT is Money. If a Man lets his Money lie in my Hands after it is due, he gives me the Interest, or so much as I can make of it during that Time. This amounts to a considerable Sum where a Man has good and large Credit, and makes good Use of it.
-(Money is lying in organizers hands - or in sponsors hands - in some cases (ESL) for long, extended periods of time, but not from the players leaving it there... Not to say that they are profiting from having the money, but I'd imagine that there are costs being paid with money that should be going to players)
Remember that Money is of a prolific generating Nature. Money can beget Money, and its Offspring can beget more, and so on. Five Shillings turn'd, is Six: Turn'd again, 'tis Seven and Three Pence; and so on 'til it becomes an Hundred Pound. The more there is of it, the more it produces every Turning, so that the Profits rise quicker and quicker. He that kills a breeding Sow, destroys all her Offspring to the thousandth Generation. He that murders a Crown, destroys all it might have produc'd, even Scores of Pounds.
-(In this way, tournament organizers are indeed costing players money by withholding their payments)
Remember that Six Pounds a Year is but a Groat a Day. For this little Sum (which may be daily wasted either in Time or Expence unperceiv'd) a Man of Credit may on his own Security have the constant Possession and Use of an Hundred Pounds. So much in Stock briskly turn'd by an industrious Man, produces great Advantage.
Remember this Saying, That the good Paymaster is Lord of another Man's Purse. He that is known to pay punctually and exactly to the Time he promises, may at any Time, and on any Occasion, raise all the Money his Friends can spare. This is sometimes of great Use: Therefore never keep borrow'd Money an Hour beyond the Time you promis'd, lest a Disappointment shuts up your Friends Purse forever.
-(Hopefully this will start to surface within the different organizations. It is pretty clear who the poor paymasters are at this point and who the good ones are.)
The most trifling Actions that affect a Man's Credit, are to be regarded. The Sound of your Hammer at Five in the Morning or Nine at Night, heard by a Creditor, makes him easy Six Months longer. But if he sees you at a Billiard Table, or hears your Voice in a Tavern, when you should be at Work, he sends for his Money the next Day. Finer Cloaths than he or his Wife wears, or greater Expence in any particular than he affords himself, shocks his Pride, and he duns you to humble you. Creditors are a kind of People, that have the sharpest Eyes and Ears, as well as the best Memories of any in the World.
Good-natur'd Creditors (and such one would always chuse to deal with if one could) feel Pain when they are oblig'd to ask for Money. Spare 'em that Pain, and they will love you. When you receive a Sum of Money, divide it among 'em in Proportion to your Debts. Don't be asham'd of paying a small Sum because you owe a greater. Money, more or less, is always welcome; and your Creditor had rather be at the Trouble of receiving Ten Pounds voluntarily brought him, tho' at ten different Times or Payments, than be oblig'd to go ten Times to demand it before he can receive it in a Lump. It shews, besides, that you are mindful of what you owe; it makes you appear a careful as well as an honest Man; and that still encreases your Credit.
-(An interesting point, perhaps paying players in increments is a possible solution to this problem? Surely it is easier to pay $100 a week for 10 weeks than it is to pay $1000 at once...)
Beware of thinking all your own that you possess, and of living accordingly. 'Tis a mistake that many People who have Credit fall into. To prevent this, keep an exact Account for some Time of both your Expences and your Incomes. If you take the Pains at first to mention Particulars, it will have this good Effect; you will discover how wonderfully small trifling Expences mount up to large Sums, and will discern what might have been, and may for the future be saved, without occasioning any great Inconvenience.
In short, the Way to Wealth, if you desire it, is as plain as the Way to Market. It depends chiefly on two Words, INDUSTRY and FRUGALITY; i. e. Waste neither Time nor Money, but make the best Use of both. He that gets all he can honestly, and saves all he gets (necessary Expences excepted) will certainly become RICH; If that Being who governs the World, to whom all should look for a Blessing on their Honest Endeavours, doth not in his wise Providence otherwise determine.
-Benjamin Franklin
Philadelphia, B. Franklin and D. Hall, at the New-Printing-Office, 1748
Hopefully my post doesn't get skipped over by all, I think the content of the spoiler is relevant and interesting, although I'm not sure all will agree.
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On November 01 2011 11:24 zmansman17 wrote: Have your team contract with a lawyer with respect to these cases. Even though you never have to use the lawyer, you can make his/her presence known and use him/her as a bargaining tool.
In the same way universities often have lawyers who represent them in defamation, sexual harassment, criminal regards, a team of gamers could do the same thing, even if the lawyer is only chosen to represent you and is not often used.
Exactly. This is the biggest argument in favor of a union if going down that route is best. The mere threat of a lawyer gets a lot more done for you than emails.
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On November 01 2011 11:21 Athox wrote: The thing is, it only rates tournaments. As if tournaments are the enemy. And it only deals with this specific problem of prize money payouts. Tournament organizers aren't always the ones to blame.
And rating systems are a mild form of exclusion. Don't underestimate mass mentality.
You're right that the organizers aren't always the cause of the non-payment, but it's impractical for the community to keep track of the reliability of the sponsors -- that is properly the responsibility of the organizers to begin with. This system will only really hurt tournaments that make a habit of having these problems. If the organizers repeatedly make the same mistakes (i.e. unreliable sponsors who refuse payment), then the community is right to push them out of the business, so that someone else can take their place.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote: Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote: I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg) Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
This is disgraceful beyond belief, will not be watching the stream next yeah, they can go fuck themselves.
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On November 01 2011 11:31 Destructor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:21 Athox wrote: The thing is, it only rates tournaments. As if tournaments are the enemy. And it only deals with this specific problem of prize money payouts. Tournament organizers aren't always the ones to blame.
And rating systems are a mild form of exclusion. Don't underestimate mass mentality.
You're right that the organizers aren't always the cause of the non-payment, but it's impractical for the community to keep track of the reliability of the sponsors -- that is properly the responsibility of the organizers to begin with. This system will only really hurt tournaments that make a habit of having these problems. If the organizers repeatedly make the same mistakes (i.e. unreliable sponsors who refuse payment), then the community is right to push them out of the business, so that someone else can take their place.
Or you just make your highest rating require presentation of their sponsorship contracts for verification that they are acting in good faith.
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On November 01 2011 08:09 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:21 ReachTheSky wrote:On November 01 2011 07:20 Zuxo wrote: Hahahaahahahahah I love how d.Devil suddenly stopped posting in this thread after Naniwas second comment. lol yeah he really knows how to represent ;P someone hire a pr guy for him ;P I don't see any reason to continue discussing this matter publicly, especially because I simply don't know some details after all these years. Would make me look stupid if I was wrong (or actually it's just enough to claim I'm wrong). Just one last thing: I have nothing to be ashamed of in regards to how NaNiwa was treated in hoorai. I always tried my very best to keep him happy and he got everything he needed (even though, in the 3 years I managed hoorai, there wasn't one single player who was more exhausting to take care of than him). Apparently, I failed and he now hates my guts. Fine, then that's the way it is. Nonetheless, I believe hoorai was quite different from the actually scammy organizations – and there were tons of those ones. I didn't even have access to the bank account, but I know for sure that he did get his normal monthly salary. Anyway, not going to continue justifying myself... that was a long time ago and certainly there were quite some things that went wrong (if they hadn't, hoorai probably would still exist today). Think of me what you want, but hoorai paid out over 100 000 $ in player salaries overall.
I don't know how you can continue to act self righteous, or even indignant because Nani is pissed that you're not paying him his money. If you honestly think theirs something different between you and all these other scammy organizations besides scale, you need to take a long look in the mirror.
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