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This is something that has been a problem in ESPORTS for many many years and is nothing new. I have talked to players not only in the SC world but in other games as well and it universally seems to be a problem. With no one to really keep the companies in line the sponsors can basically do whatever they want.
As Totalbiscuit has said, this is why community members such as himself and others who run their own tournaments have begun trying to raise money for the players. Some times we catch a lot of flak for not doing everything perfect, but the idea is to skip the 50 middle men (trust me when I say trying to run tournaments with big sponsors involves a LOT of middlemen and a LOT of bullshit) and get right to what matters, supporting the players.
Good luck getting paid for any tournaments you are owed up on. I've heard from many many players that it is not easy.
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Well honestly your team should be looking out for you as-well, I don't see why the burden of claiming prize money and having to beg for it, falls on your shoulders.
This is a prime example of the need for professional legalized e-sports agents that represent the players in these kind of matters. Let them handle this shit, allowing players to focus on practicing and advancing their skill.
Obviously its pretty pathetic hearing about these "major" organizations not paying out in time, but until someone actually does something about it they won't give a shit.
My 2 cents.
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On November 01 2011 08:46 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:42 aTnClouD wrote:
Honestly I liked ESWC organization and the event was great and I have absolutely nothing against it. I just stated that I didn't get contacted by anyone and I was worried since their bad payment history. I didn't necessary put them in a bad light since if they pay in time they will get positive reputation out of it. I just wrote my post in a way people could understand my point of view as progamer worried about getting his prize money all the time. You don't need to defend yourself man, you're in the right here and the few voices speaking against you will be silenced by the supporters.
lol what is wrong with you
Why are you so ready to throw everyone under the bus?
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i'd like to see tl adding a tournament blacklist for stuff like that. i remember this was already discussed back when eswc didn't pay out the prices. it turned out that alot of prices in various tourneys weren't paid out. the best way to counter that is to make it public. the comunity should support the players here.
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I'm surprised to see that no one has come into this thread with the attitude of "You should be so grateful that people are putting money into esports! You should be so grateful you can make money off this blah blah blah" 
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I'm totally with ClouD here. If ESCW pay him, then all this will do is increase their legitimacy. This thread is a *good* thing for them in the long run if they pay out, because there are so many examples of tournaments not doing so if ClouD then edits his op and say OK, ESCW paid me the money I'm owed, thanks guys, we then know they are the real deal.
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i always thought and believed that the system should be that the tourney organizer should have the money ready to pay the players, and not have to wait for the sponsors. they are the ones that owe the money. and of course the organizers in turn will get the money from the sponsors as reimbursement.
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I think it is blizzards responsibility to ensure a common standard for tournament organization.
E-Sports is still very young and its not easy to raise money for tournaments. I understand its hard and payments get delayed. It happens.
But you need a procedure how to deal with it. So Blizzard should demand some basic regulations to get a tournament license.
1. Tournament Management has to inform winner of the tournament in a given time frame of payment procedure
2. Payment has to be fulfilled within x days. If payment gets delayed more than that u got to pay interest for it. Deadline is x month.
3. If you violate the rules, you're licence can be withdrawn / you wont get a new license for next year.
Details of this agreement arent that important. Its mainly about a regulation everyone can rely on.
Maybe someone should write a letter with those basic demands to blizzard, signed by as many progamers as possible. Imo thats the way to go.
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Ok so where are they going to draw the line.. Some of the tournaments listed are BIG named ones.
I mean is there anything that could be done by the community as a whole to appoint some sort of Esports police who come to your house and start kicking ur shit in if you haven't paid players
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On November 01 2011 09:01 Husky wrote:
This is something that has been a problem in ESPORTS for many many years and is nothing new. I have talked to players not only in the SC world but in other games as well and it universally seems to be a problem. With no one to really keep the companies in line the sponsors can basically do whatever they want.
As Totalbiscuit has said, this is why community members such as himself and others who run their own tournaments have begun trying to raise money for the players. Some times we catch a lot of flak for not doing everything perfect, but the idea is to skip the 50 middle men (trust me when I say trying to run tournaments with big sponsors involves a LOT of middlemen and a LOT of bullshit) and get right to what matters, supporting the players.
Good luck getting paid for any tournaments you are owed up on. I've heard from many many players that it is not easy.
Why hasnt anybody tried to make an overarching authority over all of starcraft 2 leagues?
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oh and btw what pisse me off the most are companies (ESL anyone?) who charge money for every little shit feature and then won't pay out prices. especially when they justify it openly by saying it would benefit esports.
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On November 01 2011 09:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is blizzards responsibility to ensure a common standard for tournament organization.
E-Sports is still very young and its not easy to raise money for tournaments. I understand its hard and payments get delayed. It happens.
But you need a procedure how to deal with it. So Blizzard should demand some basic regulations to get a tournament license.
1. Tournament Management has to inform winner of the tournament in a given time frame of payment procedure
2. Payment has to be fulfilled within x days. If payment gets delayed more than that u got to pay interest for it. Deadline is x month.
3. If you violate the rules, you're licence can be withdrawn / you wont get a new license for next year.
Details of this agreement arent that important. Its mainly about a regulation everyone can rely on.
Maybe someone should write a letter with those basic demands to blizzard, signed by as many progamers as possible. Imo thats the way to go.
Why is it Blizzards problem? They don't set up any of the tournaments and I'm sure they aren't making games for E-Sports... they are making them to sell them to a mass audience and make money off of them, hence Heart of the Swarm
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On November 01 2011 09:16 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 09:01 Husky wrote:
This is something that has been a problem in ESPORTS for many many years and is nothing new. I have talked to players not only in the SC world but in other games as well and it universally seems to be a problem. With no one to really keep the companies in line the sponsors can basically do whatever they want.
As Totalbiscuit has said, this is why community members such as himself and others who run their own tournaments have begun trying to raise money for the players. Some times we catch a lot of flak for not doing everything perfect, but the idea is to skip the 50 middle men (trust me when I say trying to run tournaments with big sponsors involves a LOT of middlemen and a LOT of bullshit) and get right to what matters, supporting the players.
Good luck getting paid for any tournaments you are owed up on. I've heard from many many players that it is not easy. Why hasnt anybody tried to make an overarching authority over all of starcraft 2 leagues?
Like I said, I'd love to try to get something going, but I'd need contacts and/or big names to get on board to start it up. And I don't see the big names jumping at trying to get something like this going.
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On November 01 2011 08:33 MichaelJLowell wrote:Hey, does anyone remember a certain video game developer and publisher claiming that they wanted complete control of the competitive tournament scene partially on the rationale that tracking all of these tournaments would allow the developer to police the scene and prevent these sort of shady practices from occurring? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123Show nested quote +Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! Oh, right. That was all bullshit. At worst, Blizzard knows about this stuff and doesn't really care. At best, they simply don't have the ability to proactively enforce any of these shady situations, a role that they took on willingly in the name of "protecting intellectual property". While I normally don't care for most of the things that the StarCraft II community gets loud, angry, and vocal over, I highly suggest you yell and scream about this one. The system should be designed to reward the players and having a system where sponsors and tournaments face no repercussion for withholding payment needs to be done away with as soon as possible. I know this has been a prevalent issue for competitive video games over the last fifteen years. Blizzard assumed the role of "lord and master", Blizzard assumed the power to deal with this crap, they're entitled to use it.
Hmmm. That's a very interesting point. Do we want Blizzard to assert even more control over tournaments than it already does just for the sake of ensuring players get paid more quickly/reliably? Realistically, would Blizz even be able to anything at all? I know its license agreement gives it the right based on the provision you cited, but having a right to do something doesn't necessarily give one a means to do something.
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On November 01 2011 03:26 csn_JohnClark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:20 Jagd wrote:On November 01 2011 03:10 csn_JohnClark wrote:On November 01 2011 03:04 aike wrote:On November 01 2011 02:47 csn_JohnClark wrote:
gawd..this is getting out of hand. Too many people who have little understanding of business are trashing organizations that have continued to help grow eSports. YES.. it is wrong and unacceptable not to pay out in a fairly timely manner.. but 3 months is nothing new to the business world and we cant be throwing shit around about not being paid within a week or 30 days.
Who cares if it's nothing new? How about... tournaments should have prize money ON HAND before hosting a tournament. It's bullshit for them to say "$100k first place prize!" but then when they don't pay it their excuse is "sponsors haven't payed us yet sorry" DONT FUCKING HOST A TOURNAMENT IF YOUR SPONSORS HAVEN'T GIVEN YOU THE MONEY YET. Stop acting like just because this has always been like this that it is ok to keep happening. There is no reason money shouldn't be payed out within a month. IPL talking about paperwork and all that stuff, but they should have had this done and cleared up before the event even happens, they should only need to fill in the blank of the actual players name and have it be done with. You sir.. are way off base and have little understanding of how things work. Listen.. building esports will mean we take chances and we take our lumps as they come.. but it baffles me how demanding some are that have little experience in how eSports works. These issues have been happening for years.. and things are much better now then they were and we should continue to push for them to get better. Trust me.. its annoying to be working with a sponsor that you trust and that has paid out very timely in the past.. but for some reason they are having issues with a current payout and its effecting your ability to pay the players.. but such is life and I think the real issue (as someone pointed out) is how it is handled by the organization and the communication that happens between the player and organization. Why do you keep writing excuses for the current status quo? There's a general consensus that tournaments right now aren't as accountable as we would like them to be; what a good manager should say is that we understand there are problems, and we will communicate with our players about the problems, and in the future we will try to correct them. I.e. we will talk to sponsors to address this concern, and as our tournament starts to get a good reputation we will enforce stricter rules on our sponsors, etc. I am not writing excuses. I have been involved with these issues for probably longer then most of you have been out of diapers  . This is a real issue and something that has to be addressed.. but this thread has gotten out of hand. If you knew me.. you would know how much I HATE the fact that organizations do not pay out. It disgusted me when I was at GGL and ESL. I do stand by the fact that ESL at least paid out.. at some point.. but it bothered me to know end how long it took to pay out even $50 bucks for a small GO4 cup. I am simply saying that many in this thread need to step back and look at this from a business stand point first... then critically think about how it all works and how much things have improved. If you only knew what it was like just 5 years ago... you would understand my frustration with this current conversation.
I'm sure Blockbuster reps in 2000 were pointing out that people demanding elimination of late fees were out of touch and that so much progress had been made on the issue, and that they had been involved in the media rental business since most of its critics were in diapers.
Then Netflix did it better. No late fees.
Blockbuster is bankrupt.
And presumably the Blockbuster reps urging patience and for people to look at the business standpoint are wondering how all their experience proved so meaningless to unhappy customers.
Make it right or see your customer base dissipate; don't lecture it on your arbitrary notions of what is reasonable.
3 months to pay out paychecks or event winnings is bordering on unacceptable, and a year? Absurd. Period. If you want eSports to be taken seriously, start treating the players and running tournaments like it. If you don't like that, you can always go the Blockbuster route.
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On November 01 2011 09:09 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think it is blizzards responsibility to ensure a common standard for tournament organization.
E-Sports is still very young and its not easy to raise money for tournaments. I understand its hard and payments get delayed. It happens.
But you need a procedure how to deal with it. So Blizzard should demand some basic regulations to get a tournament license.
1. Tournament Management has to inform winner of the tournament in a given time frame of payment procedure
2. Payment has to be fulfilled within x days. If payment gets delayed more than that u got to pay interest for it. Deadline is x month.
3. If you violate the rules, you're licence can be withdrawn / you wont get a new license for next year.
Details of this agreement arent that important. Its mainly about a regulation everyone can rely on.
Maybe someone should write a letter with those basic demands to blizzard, signed by as many progamers as possible. Imo thats the way to go.
Thats too much work for blizzard, and also should never be there responsibility. I see where you are going with this and you have somewhat of a good point, but it would be too hard to complete that
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Anyway we can vote on like.. who is going to be the esports police.
If so, I vote for Hot_bid
LOL or slasher!
I can totally see him walking up to these offices with his new haircut and be like bitch where is the money
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Wow... I guess SC2 does need a governing body of sorts? Holy hell...
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I like how people who don't know what they're talking about (tournament reps) comment on why it takes so long for the players to get money. The reason is nothing to do with federal regulations or auditing, if it did have something to do with it, MLG (and other morally sound companies) wouldn't pay as quickly as they do.
These larger companies are more likely extending what is known as DPO (days payable outstanding). It's an accounting metric that measures how much one company is able to extend out their terms and therefore keep money, as others in this thread have already alluded to, like a floating loan. In the case of my company, we work hard to extend our DPO of 52 days to 60. The most common terms we have are 30 and 45 days, but some are currently as far as 75, but that's not where we want to stop! We try to extend them to 90 days with various payment programs.
Of course, this is only half of the equation. The other half is known as DSO (days sales outstanding) and as the acronym may already suggest, we want to keep this number as low as possible. We would like to get paid same day, but of course most other companies do what we try to do. However, we are pretty good at this game and our DSO is lower than our DPO, sitting at about 39 days. So if you take DPO - DSO, you can get a feel for the amount of money a company floats and thus can use to invest in other things sooner than they might be able to otherwise.
The thing is, the companies that we do this to have varying amounts of buying power and can demand better terms, which is why everyone isn't at 90 days. It's worth noting that players have almost zero "buying power." I don't think its actually zero because players like idra, huk, and other big names have profile power that can defame the companies that aren't paying them, devaluing their services. But many players do not have this luxury, especially players trying to break out into the scene. There's no federal regulations keeping you from paying people sooner (please enlighten me if there is!), there is only moral obligation. MLG is a business run by someone who is involved in the community. We're talking about the guy who can write the checks, not some random league rep who has as much business experience as a stripper. These leagues that don't pay on time are business only, and so this problem likely won't disappear unless the players create buying power, whether by union or twitter trends, unless they push back the terms will never get better, only worse.
edit: 500!
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ESL seems to fall behind in every regard anyway as far as i can tell from a viewer and fan perspective.
No Playerbooths.
Events on conventions, no event for e-sport matters only.
Stream shared with LoL and other games.
--> bad scedule.
Old and boring tournament system.
Bad stream quality without Premium.
And now the bad payment situation.
The viewercounts are incredibly low compared to MLG, Dreamhack. And to some extend im happy about it.
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EPT
