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On November 01 2011 06:16 cubert wrote:
4PL.4players.de didn't pay us 1300€ for 14 won 2v2 tournaments started from decebmer 2010, lied that sent it and ignored later. But there is nothing we can do. Nobody boycotted them (community isn't friendly enough and don't care when it isn't their problems), there aren't organisation like fifa in football and other federations.
well, its not gonna be that easy, but if its 4pl you can get your money 100% if you kick against the right doors.
fyi, the 4pl belongs to 4players (you can compare it to a german ign) and this again belongs to freenet, one of the biggest providers in germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet_AG)
try to contact the actual 4players staff (not the 4pl) and if that doesnt work, go further and kick down the freenet doors.
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I think the problems here are deeper than we think. I doubt it's simple as "tournament organizers are greedy bastards who don't want to pay".
I'm guessing it's probably something along the lines of sponsors sometimes take really long time to pay the tournament organizers, but if that tournament badmouths the sponsors for this, guess what? That sponsor goes somewhere else (just like we saw in this thread between Cloud and ESWC). Thus, sometimes this kind of practice just goes unchecked.
In the end though, regardless of what happens the tournament organizers are still responsible for paying out the money on time. Someone needs to step in to make sure this happens (e.g. player union to blacklist organizers who don't pay out).
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Yeah as alot of people have alreddy said, this is a really common problem in the eSport Industry, and the fact that starcraft2 have become so huge only highlight the problem even further.
eSport is groving and sc2 is groveing, and at some point there need to be more structure and cooperation on things (which by far have been none exsistent in eSports its been more like anarchy).
One of the big problems is that the individual players weights are quite small, Sure Idra and some other of the absolute biggest names that pulls thousands of viewers just by them selvfs can have some pull with the sponsors and organisers and make sure he gets paid, but as we could see in this thread even he has issues with it.
So basicly where iam getting at is what alot of ppl might alreddy have guessed Player Union, a united player union would have Alot more pull than any random player (and by random i mean top competetive)
This might also be a good ground for making "official" rules for player tradeing which have also been a hot buttom subject as off late.
I am actually not in doubt that this would be the correct way to go even though some people are going to yell "KESPA 2.0" i don't see it as such.
My major concern how ever is at this point are we choking a blosoming flower by introducing this now will it turn sponsors away is it to early?, I don't know! but i do know that eSports is growing and we are close to the point where the players need to take a stand against this kind of behavior!
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On November 01 2011 07:50 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:37 Iselian wrote:
As the professional SC2 scene continues to grow at such an enormous rate, no doubt tournament organizers and sponsors are looking to keep what money they can, even from the pro players who "only are playing games" or some such. While I do think a governing body would be best, something that initiates contracts for players, leagues, teams and events, it's something that has to be done *very* carefully.
Players and teams would have to have all their contracts made legally binding over an international sense. EU players who sign up with NA teams, KR players on EU teams, etc, wouldn't want to be held back by multiple agencies for multiple regions and countries. The contracts of course go without saying to be not unlike any "mainstream" athletic sport contract we know of today. Specific rules may be required in each contract by the agency, but that might not be necessary.
Leagues and the agency would have to come to a set of legally binding rules based on payment, organization, and what exactly qualifies a league. The last part would be the largest, and I think the biggest obstacle for now. With the explosion of leagues and events this last year, there are too many smaller groups who compete for the grand coverage that MLG, GSL, IPL, etc receive. I think it would come down to a designation of large, "official" leagues and events that are bound to the agency's rules (both of organization and payment), and "unofficial" leagues and events that are self-run and participated in at a bit of risk.
Sponsors would have to treat the aforementioned "official" leagues and events with a great deal of respect and knowledge that you already see in "mainstream" athletic sports. The agency would have to be given the power to step in and legally pursue debts from the sponsors. This would likely lead to a requirement for a paper trail from the sponsors to the leagues and events, but all under the eye of the agency.
The hardest part, I think, would be having everyone agree on an agency's structure and powers, that would not favor any particular leagues or regions. It would be a very, very fine line to walk, and I'm not sure it could be done just yet. In time, however.
Until then, I really do wish there was a way that, in a simple form, players could sign a contract agreeing to participate and in return, that same contract could be used to guarantee earned payment via placement. I think this is a little overboard. You don't need to control the formats of tournaments or such. Merely a standard which you can use to rate organizations. This doesn't need to be kespa. It just needs to be a group which looks out for the PLAYERS. Somone the teams can trust to certify tournaments validity and back them up in a courtroom if needed. So let's call this organization the eSPA (e Sports Players Association). eSPA sets forth guidelines for tournaments to meet. For expample, these might include things such as: 1. Payments must be disbursed within 90 days of event completing. 2. All live events must pay 5% or $500 (whichever is greater) to winners on the day of event for travel concerns. 3. All tournament organizers must submit a list of sponsors, contracts, and accounting for prize money 30 days prior to the event. etc. etc. etc. Then set up a tier of certification: eSPA Gold Standard - Meets all standards asked by eSPA eSPA Silver Standard - Legitimate tournament, but has not met all standards put forth by eSPA eSPA Trial - Tournament has promised to meet standard, signed contract saying they will, but has not proven yet. eSPA Suspended - Tournament has not met standards, but is making efforts to remedy in meantime. Re-entry involves one year trial period on Silver Standard upon payments before gold standard may be considered again. eSPA Blacklisted - Tournament has promised and failed to meet standards of eSPA. I think this baseline, combined with legal abilities, would do wonder for players, fans, and organizers.
My apologies, I didn't mean that the exact structures and formats should be dictated by my mythical agency, only that they should be clarified for sake of "You said this was how it should be, and I ended up in such a position that you owe me [$$]". My thought on all of it is that the agency is there to have a neutral party between players, sponsors and leagues/events for clarification and insurance of payment to the parties deserving.
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Speaking as someone who has hosted a major tournament (NASL), I definitely know all the hurdles you have to go through to pay out a major tournament, especially when you're getting money from sponsors.
We had in our contract that all prizes would be paid within (60) days of the tournament close, and we did this for all except 3 people (one being DarkForcE), but we did get all the money out to everyone who needed it within 2 weeks of our deadline. I think the most important thing however, is for the organization to be in contact with the players about their prize money.
As a former competitive player, I know how frustrating it is to win a tournament and wonder when the prize money is coming. I also think that players generally are pretty understanding if you are up front about the issues that are involved with paying out a prize pool. So as long as the tournament organizers are open and honest, and they are the ones making the effort, I think that's good. MLG does an awesome job of this btw.
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On November 01 2011 09:26 Mortal wrote:
Wow... I guess SC2 does need a governing body of sorts? Holy hell...
Not just SC2 but all esports in general.
Also I think its time we contacted Webster and made esports an official word.
I may not be great in spelling or grammar but I'm tired of seeing this red underline.
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On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others.
Can you explain how boycotting events that fail to pay on time and attending (+ paying for viewer passes) for events that do pay in a timely manner will make the matter worse?
You sound like a shill for shady tournament organizers. "Nono don't pressure us to honor our implied contract to pay you your winnings that we advertised as the enticement to get you to come compete, that would only make things worse!"
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The community should get together and demand that all these players get paid, 1 person(cloud) harassing then to get paid might not be enough, but put thousands behind that and things might change.
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On November 01 2011 02:13 Carmac wrote:
For anyone asking:
Intel Extreme Masters is on schedule with prize money payouts. 2010/2011 is paid out. Next event to get paid out is the Cologne Global Challenge (either paid out or until 3 months after the event, which is in November). Guangzhou & New York Global Challenges will be paid out within 3 months of the respective event dates.
all cool carmac, but im still waiting for prizemoney from nearly 2 years ago.
i know smaller ems titles arent as important to you guys as sc2 pro events, but still. the worst part about this procedure is especially that most of us ems teams are not fulltime professionals and teams tend to disband after such a long time, so we cant even divide the money properly anymore....
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On November 01 2011 09:01 Husky wrote:
This is something that has been a problem in ESPORTS for many many years and is nothing new. I have talked to players not only in the SC world but in other games as well and it universally seems to be a problem. With no one to really keep the companies in line the sponsors can basically do whatever they want.
As Totalbiscuit has said, this is why community members such as himself and others who run their own tournaments have begun trying to raise money for the players. Some times we catch a lot of flak for not doing everything perfect, but the idea is to skip the 50 middle men (trust me when I say trying to run tournaments with big sponsors involves a LOT of middlemen and a LOT of bullshit) and get right to what matters, supporting the players.
Good luck getting paid for any tournaments you are owed up on. I've heard from many many players that it is not easy.
husky bro you dont swear 
but yeah i can imagine a crapload of middlemen involved
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Cloud-- thanks a lot for bringing this to the attention of the community; many phone-calls are being exchanged and many checks are being cut today, and neither would have happened without your post. Hats off to you.
As a spectator, I feel a moral obligation to (as much as possible) watch and comment on tournaments which treat pros professionally and which grow e-Sports and ignore the rest.
Fly-by-night hucksters exploiting pros or bumbling amateurs that don't know how to handle accounts payable are not the people we as SC2 fans should support, especially as competition is getting tighter for viewers and pro participation. This is truly important for eSports.
MLG, GSL, and NASL are doing it right, and IPL has been the most responsive to complaints in the thread so far. I will continue to watch and subscribe to these tournaments and I will definitely miss the next ESL event and keep an eye out for tournaments which have a reputation for screwing pros.
That is, unless I see news that they have rapidly begun paying out pros' woefully overdue winnings. And if I am just one of thousands to do this, that is how eSports will move forward and pros will get compensation on time.
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On November 01 2011 09:41 Snaphoo wrote:
Cloud-- thanks a lot for bringing this to the attention of the community; many phone-calls are being exchanged and many checks are being cut today, and neither would have happened without your post. Hats off to you.
As a spectator, I feel a moral obligation to (as much as possible) watch and comment on tournaments which treat pros professionally and which grow e-Sports and ignore the rest.
Fly-by-night hucksters exploiting pros or bumbling amateurs that don't know how to handle accounts payable are not the people we as SC2 fans should support, especially as competition is getting tighter for viewers and pro participation. This is truly important for eSports.
MLG, GSL, and NASL are doing it right, and IPL has been the most responsive to complaints in the thread so far. I will continue to watch and subscribe to these tournaments and I will definitely miss the next ESL event and keep an eye out for tournaments which have a reputation for screwing pros.
That is, unless I see news that they have rapidly begun paying out pros' woefully overdue winnings. And if I am just one of thousands to do this, that is how eSports will move forward and pros will get compensation on time.
My thoughts exactly.
I guess It's time to HUNT and BOYCOTT. This cannot be allowed. no no.
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Is a player-representing entity, like some kind of union, necessary as a solution here? Or just bad press for tournaments that suck at this?
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On November 01 2011 09:51 zarepath wrote:
Is a player-representing entity, like some kind of union, necessary as a solution here? Or just bad press for tournaments that suck at this?
i pesonally think bad press is good enough vs late playing organizers. If it gets to be real bad when sums of money get higher and higher then i think something serious needs to be done.
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Never knew this was such a big issue. :O Seems like a lot of players have this problem. Props to Cloud for making the thread.
I know people shit on Kespa a lot, but we really do need something similar in the west if we want ''E-sports'' to become a serious industry.
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I don't understand why the tournaments don't get short term credit to solve what is apparently a cash flow problem. We have similar cash flow problems in the manufacturing world: a customer will order enough units to fill a plant nearly to capacity for an extended period of time, but accept no partials: the order is paid when it is fully completed. Payroll is then effectively financed by short term credit.
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first of all, it's great that someone (cloud in this case) finally goes public with this issue.
i also like to thank csn_JohnClark who gave us the point of view from those who are running a cup/tourny. any chance you could point out the problems you guys have with sponsors e.g. not pay in time or amount promised? i'm sorry if you already did and i missed it. at some point this thread started to be a mess. sadly.
because a good discussion from all partys involed - players, tourny admins, sponsors - could really help to make esports way more professional.
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I'm a bit puzzled how one can claim that payment within 90 days is acceptable. Do tournaments take the same amount of time to pay their other expenses like e.g. rent for the venue, equipment, etc.?
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On November 01 2011 09:21 thedirtyleg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:33 MichaelJLowell wrote:Hey, does anyone remember a certain video game developer and publisher claiming that they wanted complete control of the competitive tournament scene partially on the rationale that tracking all of these tournaments would allow the developer to police the scene and prevent these sort of shady practices from occurring? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! Oh, right. That was all bullshit. At worst, Blizzard knows about this stuff and doesn't really care. At best, they simply don't have the ability to proactively enforce any of these shady situations, a role that they took on willingly in the name of "protecting intellectual property". While I normally don't care for most of the things that the StarCraft II community gets loud, angry, and vocal over, I highly suggest you yell and scream about this one. The system should be designed to reward the players and having a system where sponsors and tournaments face no repercussion for withholding payment needs to be done away with as soon as possible. I know this has been a prevalent issue for competitive video games over the last fifteen years. Blizzard assumed the role of "lord and master", Blizzard assumed the power to deal with this crap, they're entitled to use it. Hmmm. That's a very interesting point. Do we want Blizzard to assert even more control over tournaments than it already does just for the sake of ensuring players get paid more quickly/reliably? Realistically, would Blizz even be able to anything at all? I know its license agreement gives it the right based on the provision you cited, but having a right to do something doesn't necessarily give one a means to do something.
I guess here's the way that I can explain it: Back in Brood War, both the influence of the Korean e-Sports Players Association and the community at large both committed themselves to making sure that maps were recreated and moved out of a de-facto map pool in order to adjust the game for slight changes in playstyles throughout the years. This system worked very effectively. When Warcraft III legitimized anonymous matchmaking as we know it, their ladder system became the de-facto authority for what maps would be played by the player base at-large. The company effectively decided to stop updating this map pool around 2006 and 2007, which has led to a state of total stagnation in what maps are played. So even though you have a couple of outliers like Amazonia are used in league play, the map pool mostly remains what it has remained over the last half-decade. Ironically, the greatest legacy and achievement of Warcraft III (its matchmaking system) ended up becoming one of the greatest detriments to the Warcraft III competitive scene and StarCraft's rather-lousy ladder scene (and its lack of control) played right into the hands of those most passionate about the game.
When Blizzard asserted authority over the map pool that the players once shifted and changed, the company put the onus on themselves to be as proactive as the player pool and KeSPA once were about these map changes. And initially in the life cycle of StarCraft II, Blizzard wasn't quite interested in being proactive about it. Remember all the fights over the horrible maps in the map pool? Blizzard only got on top of things when they realized the legitimacy of their tournament scene and competitive scene would be completely thrown into question. (Another reason you don't dole out massive cash prizes around a game that isn't quite ready to settle those bets.) Blizzard has effectively done the same thing by forcing KeSPA to relinquish their control over competitive StarCraft. Now, obviously, I don't have much nice to say about KeSPA's business practices, but the organization was actively committed to making sure that there was an order and control over StarCraft because that was their goal as both an organization and a business model. When Blizzard said "Fuck off, KeSPA", Blizzard placed an obligation upon themselves that they would and could demonstrate the same capacity for being the body of oversight for StarCraft II. Blizzard said "We don't want you doing this anymore." In response, the players said "We don't have a choice in this, the legality of what you're doing isn't really in question, but we're going to give you an earful if you can't handle the job."
While I haven't read most of the discussion thread, the size of this thread seems to indicate that this audience absolutely does not want their players getting fucked over and absolutely does not want the actions of previous competitive scenes recreated in the world of StarCraft II, where organizers use the outcome and success of an event to decide whether or not they want to live up to their financial obligations. I don't blame the fans and the players at all. If Blizzard wants to posture themselves as the supreme commander and say "we're doing X to protect our players" and "we're protecting our intellectual property" and all this nonsense, then they're expected to do it unless they want to be called out for it.
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EPT
