EPTwhy? spread creep is pretty strong cause in most cases its hard or impossible to run away from z units on creep cause they are just much faster and auto surround more easy which forces you to fight. Also queen improve the z defense alot. Its harder to harass and rush z, especially with p and z (compared to broodwar).
[A] Starbow - Page 54
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
why? spread creep is pretty strong cause in most cases its hard or impossible to run away from z units on creep cause they are just much faster and auto surround more easy which forces you to fight. Also queen improve the z defense alot. Its harder to harass and rush z, especially with p and z (compared to broodwar). | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:29 Kabel wrote: Btw, its 5.40 AM in Minnesota now. Why are you not sleeping? :p I got some energy drinks cookin'. No sleep.  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
"The reason I am considering Inject again is that Zerg feels a bit... empty. Queens just spread the creep........" why? spread creep is pretty strong cause in most cases its hard or impossible to run away from z units on creep cause they are just much faster and auto surround more easy which forces you to fight Yes creep spread is a strong and important ability. I mean that Queens are kinda narrow in what they do. You can spread creep or heal, basically. The most important aspect of Queens has been removed: to boost the macro. After all, it is an unique aspect in the game. Instead of completely remove it, I wonder if there is anyway Inject can be adjusted to add something good to the game. So feel free to brainstorm! | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:03 Kabel wrote: Danko, I agree on Chrono boost & Calldown SCV. They feel great and they give you the option of a little extra macro. Both those abilities also has a secondary use: Chrono boost can be used on cannons for defence and Calldown SCV can be used to expand far away or to calldown workers at the front line to repair tanks. Right now a hatchery spawns a larva every 15 seconds. And it can hold up to 3. It takes 45 seconds to replenish a hatchery. Inject in SC2 gives you 4 larvas extra every 40 seconds. And you can hold up to 19 larvas in one hatchery! According to Roblins calculations in the post above, that is an increase of 66% in efficency. You MUST use Inject larva cause it is so good! My suggestion is to make Inject add 2 extra larvas after 40 seconds. And a Hatchery can hold up to 5 larvas at once as maximum. That is an increase of 33% efficency on a hatchery and you can not save huge amounts of larva like in SC2. You will still need more hatceries to get a high larva count. But you can choose to spend APM Injecting your hatcheries from time to time, to get some extra larvas. And if you don´t, well.. you can instead focus more on your army and other Zerg stuff without falling too far behind. Here is his analysis: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=53#1048 --- The reason I am considering Inject again is that Zerg feels a bit... empty. Queens just spread the creep........ I have earlier overthrown a lot of stuff from SC2. "Nah that just sucks!" I´ve been trying to add completely new stuff instead. Nothing is wrong with that, except that I have found out that the stuff already in the game can actually be useable if tweaked. I think Larva Inject has potential, after all. But I don´t want it to have the same effect on the game as it currently does in SC2. The stuff I add to the Queen, like Infect creep, is just artificial respiration to let the Queen still be in the game. I was talking above on how the other macro abilities has more uses. If Queens are limited to 1 per hatchery, as they are now, then the Queen themselves are the macro abilitys with more usage! You can use it to Inject your hatcheries OR you can use them to spread creep OR to heal your defence. If Inject, creep tumors and Transfuse costs more in energy, you can´t do it all. You gotta use your energy well. Hmm.. hm.. With current setup, a hathery gets a 150% increase in larve production which is equal to 66% increase in larvae/mineralspent (900 minerals worth of hatheries produce 12 larvae/minute, 900 minerals worth of hatch+queen comboes produce 20 larvae/minute) By adding a queen. If inject larvae has same duration but half production Then a hathery gets a 75% increase in larvae production which is equal to 16% increase in larvae/mineralspent. (900 minerals of hatheries produce 12 larvae/minute, 900 minerals of hatch+queen comboes produce 14 larvae/minute) by adding a queen. //Roblin p.s. I will update my post to assume starbow spawns 1 larvae/15 seconds when i get home from work. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
A hatchery costs 300 minerals. It produces 1 larva every 15 seconds. A Queen costs 150 minerals. Inject produces 2 larvas every 45 seconds. This means that 2 hatcheries for 600 minerals produces 6 larva every 45 seconds. 1 Queen & 1 Hatchery for 450 minerals produces 5 larva every 45 seconds. Compare it to SC2 values: + Show Spoiler + 2 Hatcheries for 600 minerals produces 6 larva every 45 seconds- 1 Queen & 1 Hatchery for 450 minerals produces 7 larva every 45 seconds. Using Inject is a MUST as Zerg, cause it is so good compared to having more hatcheries. Now you can only build 1 Queen per hatchery... This means that if you want to use the extra production boost by a Queen, it will do nothing else for you! (Since 45 seconds cooldown on Inject gives you 25 energy. Enough to cast it again..) So if you have a main base & 1 expansion, you can only have 2 queens. If you want both to boost your production, you won´t be able to spread creep. And if you spread creep with both, they won´t have energy to inject.......... In SC2, you had acess to unlimited Queens. You could Inject & Spread creep as much as you want. Now you have to choose between the two, since you will never have more Queens than you have hatcheries! Also, a hatchery here can only hold 5 larvas via inject. (In SC2 a hatchery can store 19 larvas!) So.. feel free to discuss this now! And if you think it sucks big time, stop me before I add it to the game (I will have a new patch up today with some small fixes and adjustments.) | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
Anyway. My idea was that the Queen would go through stages. It would start off as a new born Queen. It would only be able to cast Creep Tumor, then at Lair tech. You can morph the new born Queen into... blah blah Queen. The Queen now has the ability to Transfuse. Then at Hive tech. The blah blah Queen can morph into the baller Queen which can Larvae Inject. So, New Born Queen (Hatchery tech, can cast Creep Tumor) morphs into Blah Blah Queen (Lair tech, can cast Creep Tumor and Transfuse) while Blah Blah Queen morphs into Baller Queen (Hive tech, can cast Creep Tumor, Transfuse and Larvae Inject). So basically the Queen evolves over time in three stages. 1 -> 2 -> 3. Just a random thought that I came up with. Hopefully it becomes useful!  | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
Problem with inject beeing available right away is that hydra bust or droning up fast will be even stronger and i doubt that it will be possible to scout it in time and even if you scout that he used inject you cant tell if he drones up heavily or which bust will come. If the queen has 3 stages this problem is solved. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
A Queen with Inject gives access to larvas much faster than building an extra hatchery does. But if Build Time on Queen is increased from 40 to 60 seconds? Also, the build time on hydras can be increased with a couple of seconds, since you can build more at the same time? --- I think Inject is an ability that is unique, has a proper animation and works. I DO NOT want Inject to be a crucial part of Zerg, like in SC2. I want it to be similar in strength as Calldown SCV & Chrono Boost. It gives a small boost if you choose to spend APM on it... Adding a few extra larvas is a small benefit, just like chrono boost makes you get a unit out a little bit faster.. If you use the energy on spreading creep instaed, that will give you an other type of benefit. I think this will make Zerg players develop different styles; players like Dakota are very good at spreading creep and uses the creep for different strategies, like mid-game heavy aggression where his reinforcements move on the creep highway towards the enemy front. He even uses spine crawlers as siege tanks! ^^ While other Zerg players will focus more on gain a few extra larvas to have a slightly stronger production, but if they do, they will have less creep to give them mobility.. Edit: @Queen evoloving in three stages. Its a nice idea and Blizzard actually used it before Beta. The Queen could evolve. But the problem is the models. I only have acess to one Queen model, and the only difference will be their size and maybe color. If Inject needs to be delayed, I think there are other ways to overcome that problem , rather than to make Queen devlop in 3 stages. Unless there are more ideas on what the Queens can do in the differenent stages | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On August 08 2012 23:05 Kabel wrote: Good point TaShadan. A Queen with Inject gives access to larvas much faster than building an extra hatchery does. But if Build Time on Queen is increased from 40 to 60 seconds? Also, the build time on hydras can be increased with a couple of seconds, since you can build more at the same time? --- I think Inject is an ability that is unique, has a proper animation and works. I DO NOT want Inject to be a crucial part of Zerg, like in SC2. I want it to be similar in strength as Calldown SCV & Chrono Boost. It gives a small boost if you choose to spend APM on it... Adding a few extra larvas is a small benefit, just like chrono boost makes you get a unit out a little bit faster.. Did you read my post? ^^ | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
yea, but I accidently deleted the content before I posted my reply : ( Added it as an edit instead And remember everyone, if you think Inject is a bad idea, stop me before I add it! | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
Poll: Should Inject larvae be added again? No. (8) Yes. (1) 9 total votes Your vote: Should Inject larvae be added again? | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
Its a nice idea and Blizzard actually used it before Beta. The Queen could evolve. But the problem is the models. I only have acess to one Queen model, and the only difference will be their size and maybe color. If Inject needs to be delayed, I think there are other ways to overcome that problem , rather than to make Queen devlop in 3 stages. Unless there are more ideas on what the Queens can do in the differenent stages" just change the dependencies for the abilities. Inject needs hive and transfuse needs lair. | ||
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SoulFilcher
Brazil43 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Goliaths can now be built with Reactors. Lurkers cost decreased by 50 minerals. They now cost 50/100. (Plus 75/25 for the Hydralisk) Scarab upgrade damage reduced from 50 to 25. Shield lasts 15 seconds instead of 20. Spider mines have slightly larger explosion area. Firebats & Medics build time decreased by 3 seconds. Small fixes. And the big bomb: Inject Larva has replaced Infect Creep.. You can only have 1 Queen per Hatchery. Inject adds 2 extra larva every 45 seconds. (In SC2 they add 4 larva every 40 seconds) The build time for Queens have been increased from 40 to 60 seconds. A hatchery can only store 5 larvas. (19 in SC2!) So Inject now adds a small boost to a hatchery. But it is not necessary to use Inject here to macro, like it is in SC2. You still need more hatcheries. Will this work? Is this the worst idea ever? Well, I will give this a try. If any other better ideas for Injects are brought up, then it can be adjusted. (I know some ideas has been presented already, but they need to be nailed down why it is a good idea that will bring good things to the game.) On August 09 2012 01:03 SoulFilcher wrote: @Kabel: Hey man, I see you used some of my icons and ideas, great concept. Maybe we can "trade" more stuff between our mods Hi there Thanks a lot for all help and everything! Starbow is unlocked, so if you need anything just open it via the editor and have a look just change the dependencies for the abilities. Inject needs hive and transfuse needs lair. True, that is easy to fix. But why shall Inject be a Hive ability? If is shall be in the game at all, why limit it to be used in the late game? | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
why did i open a poll?  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On August 09 2012 03:07 TaShadan wrote: "And the big bomb: Inject Larva has replaced Infect Creep.. " why did i open a poll? 8 people have voted no and nobody has given me a reason... I am saying it again: Why will Inject, in its current form that I have suggested, be bad for the game? Feel free to analyze, critize and discuss this. If you all just click "no" on a vote-button, how am I supposed to know your thoughts? Many of you might have good reasons to not add Inject back again. Let me hear em! People have given me some ideas and I say it again: Please devolop your ideas further! | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1978 Posts
But its only hypothetical. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Larvae inject had to be casted repetitively every 40sec or you would fall behind. You couldnt choose to not you use it cause you would fall behind pretty quickly. Now, with completly redesign of races situation has changed. There are still holes to fill, but i think reintroduction of larvae mechanic will be step back. Yes it has to be casted every 40 seconds otherwise Zerg fall behind. That is horrible design. Thats why I suggest it to only give a small boost. You still need more hatcheries, and you can if you want use Queens to give some extra larvas. But I do not want Zerg to depend upon using Injects to be able to macro. Why is that a step back? I personally do not like Larvae Inject. Just going to say that right now. I hate it. Yes I hate it too. As it is in SC2. But we have to see potential in stuff too. Otherwise we won´t have any progress at all. why? spread creep is pretty strong cause in most cases its hard or impossible to run away from z units on creep cause they are just much faster and auto surround more easy which forces you to fight. Also queen improve the z defense alot. Its harder to harass and rush z, especially with p and z (compared to broodwar). Creep spread is awesome and important. I think it makes a good counterbalance to injecting. You can choose between 2 good things, but you won´t have energy for it all and you can´t build unlimited Queens either. I think that adds interesting decisions. Problem with inject beeing available right away is that hydra bust or droning up fast will be even stronger and i doubt that it will be possible to scout it in time and even if you scout that he used inject you cant tell if he drones up heavily or which bust will come. If the queen has 3 stages this problem is solved. Best argument so far. It is a risk that Inject enables early pushes that are impossible to scout. But if early Inject is a problem, I think that can be adjusted in other ways.. Queens starts with no energy or with a starting cooldown of 60 seconds on Inject creep or something. On August 09 2012 03:56 TaShadan wrote: I already told you why it might be not a good idea. But its only hypothetical. Yep, it can add inflation on larvas early on, which make Zerg able to build lots of stuff too early. But if we assume that we find a solution on that matter, either by making Inject requires lair/hive, or add a cooldown at start for Inject.. are their any other reasons you think Inject should not be in the game at all? Here are my numbers again regarding Inject: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=54#1065 | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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