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On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote:They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon.
Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4
2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4
4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4
2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4
8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4
The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields.
Now - mobility issues aside which is the next problem a lot of Protoss problems have and why you don't go over the map with them - what would you rather use against something that doesn't shoot back like workers:
- Immortals - who gain nothing from their high HP in that situation, since the opponent isn't fighting back and when he is you have to run anyways
- something cheaper with higher dps
You know, the game is made in a way that you can have marines or banelings dropped into your mineral line and you can react to their damage output. Guess which units won't be worth dropping. The ones with lower damage output which do even less if your opponent is on top of his defense. That's one of the main problems with Protoss harassment play. You can give dragoons all the blink in the world, they will still only kill very few SCVs before they have to retreat if you harass with them. Meanwhile zerg suicides 15zerglings without doing anything 2-3times, but when they hit the opponent, oh man does he bleed.
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these changes feel like too little too late.
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On February 13 2014 04:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote:On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote:They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4 2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4 4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4 2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4 8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4 The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields.
That is a simplistic way of looking at units. In a real game, you have to account for survivability to. For example, a marine or a zergling have high DPS, but they will most likely die very fast, effectively having little time to do their DPS. An Immortal, Archon, Tank (due to range), etc have lower DPS but survive much longer thus still being very good dmg dealers.
The Immortal with it's above average DPS against armored and super high survivability makes it a FANTASTIC DMG dealer to armored units.
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On February 13 2014 04:12 Big N00b wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote:On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote:They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4 2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4 4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4 2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4 8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4 The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields. Now - mobility issues aside which is the next problem a lot of Protoss problems have and why you don't go over the map with them - what would you rather use against something that doesn't shoot back like workers: - Immortals - who gain nothing from their high HP in that situation, since the opponent isn't fighting back and when he is you have to run anyways - something cheaper with higher dps You know, the game is made in a way that you can have marines or banelings dropped into your mineral line and you can react to their damage output. Guess which units won't be worth dropping. The ones with lower damage output which do even less if your opponent is on top of his defense. That's one of the main problems with Protoss harassment play. You can give dragoons all the blink in the world, they will still only kill very few SCVs before they have to retreat if you harass with them. Meanwhile zerg suicides 15zerglings without doing anything 2-3times, but when they hit the opponent, oh man does he bleed.
That is a ridiculous way to look at it.
Especially when I specifically mentioned its unmatched ability to survive vs tanks.
A key thing about most protoss units is that they have high survivability, not high dps.
This is TL.net in a nutshell - only argue against one part of someones argument and leave out the other parts which were needed to make a point in the first place.
And what about the archon? You conveniently forgot to comment on that.
Why don't you show me some calculations about the poor damage output of the archon while ignoring the fact that it does splash damage and has 350hp.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 13 2014 06:12 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 04:12 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote:On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote:They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4 2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4 4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4 2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4 8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4 The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields. Now - mobility issues aside which is the next problem a lot of Protoss problems have and why you don't go over the map with them - what would you rather use against something that doesn't shoot back like workers: - Immortals - who gain nothing from their high HP in that situation, since the opponent isn't fighting back and when he is you have to run anyways - something cheaper with higher dps You know, the game is made in a way that you can have marines or banelings dropped into your mineral line and you can react to their damage output. Guess which units won't be worth dropping. The ones with lower damage output which do even less if your opponent is on top of his defense. That's one of the main problems with Protoss harassment play. You can give dragoons all the blink in the world, they will still only kill very few SCVs before they have to retreat if you harass with them. Meanwhile zerg suicides 15zerglings without doing anything 2-3times, but when they hit the opponent, oh man does he bleed. That is a ridiculous way to look at it. Especially when I specifically mentioned its unmatched ability to survive vs tanks. A key thing about most protoss units is that they have high survivability, not high dps. This is TL.net in a nutshell - only argue against one part of someones argument and leave out the other parts which were needed to make a point in the first place. And what about the archon? You conveniently forgot to comment on that. Why don't you show me some calculations about the poor damage output of the archon while ignoring the fact that it does splash damage and has 350hp.
You can go around in circles with this forever. It's 100/300 at the cheapest, it can be EMP'd for 100 damage, has 10 hp once you get through the shields (and shields aren't generally upgraded), tanks have splash too but that's always ignored, archons can be kited and are short range, etc. etc.
Everyone needs to stop comparing units in a vacuum. Seriously, knock it off, it isn't helpful to anyone.
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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
Archons and Immortals are pretty big though, which helps to mitigate splash damage in general + EMPs. Ghostmech should be better against them than it actually ends up being, specially since the EMP radius nerf.
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On February 12 2014 14:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 13:23 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 12 2014 13:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have. He has the kernel of a point, wrapped in a cocoon of an onion of encasings of non-points. Protoss do not routinely get nerfs to interesting things. Phoenixes and Warp Prisms both got buffed in/around HOTS. High Templar hasn't been touched. This nerf is only being considered as a measure of last resort, and although I think we'll come to that last resort, I don't think this is the nerf DK will end up going with. (I hope not, anyway!) Well yeah, it's not so much Protoss get nerfs to make them less interesting, more they don't really get tweaks to make their units more microable and rewarding to play. Phoenixes are close to the perfect harass unit that exists in SC2 so at least we have that, with other cute things like lifting your own units to save them. Speaking purely hypothetically, how would pre-snipe nerf Ghostmech fare against Swarmhost turtling? Snipe range is 11 right?
Pre-nerf snipe was only good aginst broods and ultras due to their relatively fewer numbers and larger size. I don't think it would have much impact against the locusts that swamhosts produce. Tanks with 13 range can barely get into range with seige mode, I don't think the 10 range on snipe can really threaten swarmhosts very easily. Oh yeah its 10 range btw.
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Snipe vs swarm hosts would be almost impossible even if it would oneshot them. Zerg will have spores everywhere, fungal and abduct would fuck the ghosts up no end. You'd just lose a bunch of ghosts for very little gain.
I suppose some kind of mass ghost/raven attack with a tonne of PDDs to soak damage could happen, but it doesn't seem very plausible.
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What if there was no autospawn for locusts?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 13 2014 06:43 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 14:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2014 13:23 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 12 2014 13:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
He has a point, like or loathe them Blink Stalkers are close to the most microable and skill-scaling unit Protoss have. He has the kernel of a point, wrapped in a cocoon of an onion of encasings of non-points. Protoss do not routinely get nerfs to interesting things. Phoenixes and Warp Prisms both got buffed in/around HOTS. High Templar hasn't been touched. This nerf is only being considered as a measure of last resort, and although I think we'll come to that last resort, I don't think this is the nerf DK will end up going with. (I hope not, anyway!) Well yeah, it's not so much Protoss get nerfs to make them less interesting, more they don't really get tweaks to make their units more microable and rewarding to play. Phoenixes are close to the perfect harass unit that exists in SC2 so at least we have that, with other cute things like lifting your own units to save them. Speaking purely hypothetically, how would pre-snipe nerf Ghostmech fare against Swarmhost turtling? Snipe range is 11 right? Pre-nerf snipe was only good aginst broods and ultras due to their relatively fewer numbers and larger size. I don't think it would have much impact against the locusts that swamhosts produce. Tanks with 13 range can barely get into range with seige mode, I don't think the 10 range on snipe can really threaten swarmhosts very easily. Oh yeah its 10 range btw.
Might be able to nuke the swarmhosts using some cloaked ghosts to snipe overseers that try to spot the ghosts, or at least nuke the static defenses.
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On February 13 2014 06:12 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 04:12 Big N00b wrote:On February 13 2014 02:57 one-one-one wrote:On February 13 2014 01:54 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:48 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 01:43 Big J wrote:On February 13 2014 01:02 TheDwf wrote:On February 13 2014 00:59 ejozl wrote:They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I think this could be cool as in a Race feature and could definitely be used for the campaign for LotV, but from a pure multiplayer standpoint, Warp Gate tech is one of the mechanics that really differentiate the Protoss race from the rest, which is even more important. Sure it differentiates them, but is it in a positive way? And Protoss had a "queuing production" too in SC1, and it did not make them similar to Terran for all that. It did not make them a better race than SC2 Protoss either. Unsure where you want to go with that sentence? That I actually think that warpgate production makes them a little more different from Terran, while I don't think the main reason why Protoss balls up or allins stems from something like warpgate, but rather from "untradeable" expensive, lots of survival, little damage output units like the stalker, the dragoon, the immortal, the scout, the Archon... The immortal? Holy shit. You mean the unit that owns 5 siege tanks single-handedly and survives with only shield damage? Low damage output indeed. And I'm not even gonna get started about the Archon. Immortal: 14-35dps for 250/100/4 2*Marauder: 20-40dps for 200/50/4 4*Marine: 42dps for 200/0/4 2*Zealot: 27dps for 200/0/4 8*zergling: 57.6dps for 200/0/4 The Immortal is a bad damage dealer for its price, it's barely over average against armored. Point is that it has 200life + 100hardened shields. Now - mobility issues aside which is the next problem a lot of Protoss problems have and why you don't go over the map with them - what would you rather use against something that doesn't shoot back like workers: - Immortals - who gain nothing from their high HP in that situation, since the opponent isn't fighting back and when he is you have to run anyways - something cheaper with higher dps You know, the game is made in a way that you can have marines or banelings dropped into your mineral line and you can react to their damage output. Guess which units won't be worth dropping. The ones with lower damage output which do even less if your opponent is on top of his defense. That's one of the main problems with Protoss harassment play. You can give dragoons all the blink in the world, they will still only kill very few SCVs before they have to retreat if you harass with them. Meanwhile zerg suicides 15zerglings without doing anything 2-3times, but when they hit the opponent, oh man does he bleed. That is a ridiculous way to look at it. Especially when I specifically mentioned its unmatched ability to survive vs tanks. A key thing about most protoss units is that they have high survivability, not high dps. This is TL.net in a nutshell - only argue against one part of someones argument and leave out the other parts which were needed to make a point in the first place. And what about the archon? You conveniently forgot to comment on that. Why don't you show me some calculations about the poor damage output of the archon while ignoring the fact that it does splash damage and has 350hp.
Oh, I like how you changed his name to "Big N00B" in the quote just because you disagree with him.
He said that Immortals have low damage output for their cost, you attacked him and stated how 1 Immortal kills 5 Siege Tanks which doesn't have anything to do with Immortals "godly" dps, but with the fact that it is actually "immortal" against Siege Tanks. On the other hand, Immortals are quite bad against Zerglings, Zealots, Marines etc. so I don't see your point where you pick Immortal and say how it amazingly handles units that it is supposed to counter.
Then you are saying how "this is a ridiculous way to look at it" and how "this is TL.net in a nutshell" which sounds quite quite ironic from your previous post, I must say.
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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote:
Snipe vs swarm hosts would be almost impossible even if it would oneshot them. Zerg will have spores everywhere, fungal and abduct would fuck the ghosts up no end. You'd just lose a bunch of ghosts for very little gain.
I suppose some kind of mass ghost/raven attack with a tonne of PDDs to soak damage could happen, but it doesn't seem very plausible.
Who cares about plausible, it'd be so damn cool to see Ghosts again  Having their old snipe would give them more offensive whack and make them worth getting to at least try to use nukes to force the Z to root and have to re-manouvere, increasing the chances they screw up. I dunno, I just have an irrational hardon for Ghostmech, that shit was cool man.
I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors. It's not that they were/weren't broken but the balance team moved really damn fast to change them. My personal view is that it was to fit their idea of asymmetric design, in that Protoss/Zerg are 'supposed' to have stronger endgame comps, but I'm not sure.
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On February 13 2014 06:50 wUndertUnge wrote:
What if there was no autospawn for locusts?
What if there was no autoshoot for units? Making the unit stupidly awkward to use is not a good solution.
As for snipe vs zerg, I'd be all for it, I was just expressing my doubts that even with a damage buff it would be very useful against swarm hosts. Fuck it, let's give them a portable nuke launcher a la Starship Troopers. We have the weapons, we have the technology, we have the raven count!
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There is no swarmhost tutle in ZvT. It's the Terran who does turtling. You don't have to break through swarmhost, you just have to defend. If you defended and taken 5 bases, you have won.
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Ghosts versus infestors was conceptually quite nice. Ghosts would use snipe to kill patrolling overseers, nukes to deal with spore crawler defense, cloak to avoid various things, all to get the desired EMP hits off. It's like a clever tactical element in the game that rewards players with finesse. Very starship troopers-like, really.
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Northern Ireland26005 Posts
Need I remind anyone of THAT Gumiho game vs Life on iirc Entombed Valley?
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4713 Posts
On February 13 2014 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Need I remind anyone of THAT Gumiho game vs Life on iirc Entombed Valley?
Yep, I remember it, Gumiho had a snipe build prepared specifically for the style Life was using at the time, and also took precautions against burrowed infestor runbys. As a result Life sacrificed early eco for aggression, got no damage done, fell behind in eco and then got beaten to a pulp over the course of 10-15 minutes, was quite beautiful.
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On February 13 2014 00:25 b0ub0u wrote:
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make.
I agree but I would like to take a suggestion Toastysc2 made in another thread: Have energy units spawn without energy if warp gates are used and I would like to ad that units with a cool down mechanic would be warped in with the cool down active. This will not solve everything obviously but I wouldn't even apply this for the sake of nervs but just to make Protoss more interesting and have them a little extra to do/ consider.
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On February 13 2014 06:48 Squat wrote:
I'd be interested to hear any theories as to quite why snipe was nerfed so relatively quickly, likewise with things like Thors.
There was a famous Blizzcon finals, I think it was 2012 where Nestea's broodlord army got owned by an army of MVP Ghosts. MVP used a little mech, but mostly ghosts and sniped everything Nestea had.
This strategy had been gaining in popularity up until that point and I think that game was the straw that broke the camel's back. Ghost snipe was nerfed shortly thereafter.
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On February 13 2014 07:43 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:25 b0ub0u wrote:
They should create benefits of not turning all your gates into warpgates.
Let`s say with gateways units would be a little faster to built but you can`t warp-in. You build like a terran.
With warpgates you would have the warp-in but the build time is a little bit slower.
That would make interesting choices for the Protoss to make. I agree but I would like to take a suggestion Toastysc2 made in another thread: Have energy units spawn without energy if warp gates are used and I would like to ad that units with a cool down mechanic would be warped in with the cool down active. This will not solve everything obviously but I wouldn't even apply this for the sake of nervs but just to make Protoss more interesting and have them a little extra to do/ consider.
There's multiple options;
A - No Energy
B - No Shields (+ Regen for 20s)
C - Abilities on cooldown (doesn't affect early game warpgate tho; Charge and Blink are both research)
D - After WG is reseached, Gateways produce units faster than warpgates (this, in fact, is a buff to Protoss)
E - Extra cost to WG warp in
F - Twilight/Fleet Beacon (depending on how late you want it in the game) research for Energy+Shields at warp in
G - If you don't do F, we can add Khaydarin Amulet back into the game :D!
H - We can exclude these negative benefits at Warp Prism
I - We can make units warping in take extra damage / take longer to produce
This all weakens Warp Gate as an offensive mechanic, but strenghtens Gateways. This also allows for room to potentially buff certain Gateway units and rebalance/design Protoss as a race without causing tooooo much damage. Just a trade-off between Warpgate and Gateway is a hugely interesting change!!
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EPT
