EPTNewbie Mini Mafia VIII - Page 43
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
On April 18 2012 17:41 Xatalos wrote: Willz's defense is good, but if he's the Mafia leader, it would make sense. Everyone also keeps saying the Mafia team is good, which means they have superior argumentation skills (the average Mafia is more skilled than the average town in this game). I don't think I can beat Willz straight-on with logic and argumentation, but I'll try breaking his defense later when I have more time. Although I have more confidence in you than myself making him slip his defense right now... For now, I ask everyone to think about this: Willz is clearly one of the most skilled players in this game, yet his almost only pro-town contribution so far is his weak and forced case against BroodKingEXE. Does that make any sense for a town player? This argument about willz actually makes sense. You would think a player who can give such good arguments defensively would make better cases while he's not preoccupied with defending himself, or would actually make any good cases for that matter. As for you, your defensive arguments sometimes make little sense but then so do your cases. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily good play but at least it's consistent. Note that consistency doesn't necessarily make a player town, but inconsistency is a scum tell, and willz is guilty of it. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 18 2012 19:51 KharadBanar wrote: This argument about willz actually makes sense. You would think a player who can give such good arguments defensively would make better cases while he's not preoccupied with defending himself, or would actually make any good cases for that matter. As for you, your defensive arguments sometimes make little sense but then so do your cases. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily good play but at least it's consistent. Note that consistency doesn't necessarily make a player town, but inconsistency is a scum tell, and willz is guilty of it. Haha, I don't know if I should be happy or sad that my consistent bad play scores me credibility..... As for Willz, indeed, it's weird to play really well when needed (avoiding lynch for example) and really bad otherwise (making cases, pushing lynches, keeping the town on right track...). To me, it just looks like he's trying to avoid pushing any town agenda while playing the noob card ("I really suck at finding Mafia, that's my weakness, but I'm really really good at crushing any pressure towards me"). It just makes no sense to suck so much at anything pro-town but being otherwise a really good player. At least I'm equally bad in my play (I'd say my Mafia hunting is even stronger than my self-defense). It seems a lot of people have yet to vote, and I'm set to be lynched at the moment. However, there is still 30 hours left, so I remain hopeful. I guess KharadBanar is already leaning on Willz being Mafia, but I'll try making a more convincing case against Willz later today to convince the remaining townies. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
First off, making good cases isn't necessarily indicative of good play (see Acrofales a flipped town making the case that lynched our own doctor HiroPro? Yeah that went well) We can all agree that Acro made a good case on Hiro, which is why we all supported it, but it ended up screwing town over a lot in hindsight. Do you really think it's easy to build cases against Mafia when you have low credibility and you are incurring claims of OMGUS every time you try to point something out? I had upwards of 6+ votes at one point, it's obviously mathematically impossible to say that only Mafia voted me, fellow town also did. I'm trying to read through the logic and see where the real Mafia are, but I am stuck with defending Dittert and myself, giving me no time to push my reads. Also I'm in this newbie game along with all of you, and my only full game was Newbie V where we lost as town (and I was wrong about the last Mafia). I was killed off N2 in Aperture and did not really participate much in that either, saying I'm such a good player is really a stretch, I've also never referred to myself as a good player, I only stated that I believed my opinion should have more weight than Dittert's because this is his first game and I at least have played before and understand the game better. Do I think I'm a better player than Dittert? Sure, but at this point that's not really saying much is it? (Sorry Dittert, nothing personal) Especially comparing our martyrdom situations, I at least continued to be active and post while I was the majority vote, Dittert saw himself as the majority vote and clammed up without providing any other useful information. Brood did the same thing with his scumslip and not even posting anything useful by the time he died. Both these actions were considered scummy enough to lynch for, but now you're lynching me for behaving the exact opposite way? Second, lets move on to Xatalos's continuing to claim that I was unhelpful to town when I attempted to suicide D1. I am quoting our "conversation" when I was on the chopping block D1. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:55 Xatalos wrote: Hmm.. I can see where you're coming from. It's reasonable you would get angry as a townie when someone keeps tunneling on you for 30+ hours with bad reasoning. A big part of why I agreed to vote for you was your refusal to share your opinions on (pretty much) anyone, and now you have done so, which decreases my will to lynch you. If I was Mafia and in such a situation as you are in now, I would just create chaos and not give away any new information to town, but you have made some very reasonable posts although your lynch seems likely. Keep posting, I'm already almost ready to consider another lynch target at this point. Even if you do get lynched regardless, if you flip town after that, everything you say now will carry great weight tomorrow. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:27 willz22912 wrote: @vonKlaust That is a fair point, I should have not have been a hypocrite, I was worried that if I jumped the gun on my case and my suspicions too early, the Mafia would have enough time to coordinate a defense of it. In my mind this made sense, but I can see where everyone else thinks that it's hypocritical, which it is, but it's really too late to argue. I am posting my reads now, but if it's not going to sway you, it's not going to sway you. I fully accept that I over-reached and was too aggressive and now I am getting lynched for it. I may disagree with the basis, but I understand why it has come. I will continue to poke holes in people's logic for why they are voting me in an attempt to save myself, but it's mostly so the rest of the town can see who's scum and hiding on my bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 02:33 willz22912 wrote: Xatalos, you may agree with the case against me, but please correct this statement here: I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop. If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 03:16 willz22912 wrote: Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can. I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 03:54 willz22912 wrote: You need to look at the math I already posted. I am dead by voting, but that doesn't mean I'm not posting. My alignment flip will show the town that I really was green all along, and that the people pushing my case made a mistake. I'm not going to convince anyone I'm not Mafia until then, but I know I have been right all along. Don't say that I'm content with my fate and that is an admission to not being able to explain myself. I already stated why I'm already dead, I could just shut up entirely and not contribute but I'm not doing that am I? Acrofales, Dittert, BroodKingEXE are three votes that won't switch for various reasons, that means I won't be able to save myself even if I wanted to, so I'm not even going to try and waste time trying to change the vote, and I'm trying to be as productive as I can until I get lynched. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:03 willz22912 wrote: Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia? I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good. Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me. Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind. Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out. vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes. Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself. Anything else I need to post? + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:07 willz22912 wrote: @ Xatalos You may be right about Yomi, but I feel it's most beneficial for town at this point to confirm my lynch and get the information from my flip to decide about others. If you are right, then when I flip green, your case on Yomi is stronger because of it. If you leave me alive and we lynch Yomi instead and he flips green as well (which I still think is possible), then you have no choice but to lynch me next and then we have 2 mis-lynches in a row. It's better to have me martyr myself for town than to try and save me at this point. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 04:31 willz22912 wrote: @ ArcticFox Read Xatalos' argument, it makes sense. If yomi was Mafia and he knew I was the likely lynch target, and he knows I'm really town, he can post that in his defense freely without giving too much away, it gains him credibility. The only reason he would post that without any other support is if he had inside knowledge I think Yomi is newbie because he's tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert is tunneling me. Do you think Dittert is Mafia for posting the original case against me and trying to lynch me? How is this any different from Yomi against Dittert? They're both newb towns tunneling everyone. I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I suppose he could be Mafia making an easy case because of previous circumstance (Dittert/BroodKingEXE responses to me) but that's up to you to figure out since I won't be around now will I? What do you want me to do, save myself by changing my vote to Yomi? And what happens if he flips red, all is forgiven and everyone will overlook my behavior? What happens if he flips green, then how do I explain myself? I'm in a lose-lose situation personally, and the best thing I can do for town is let my lynch go through and flip green to prove I was town. These are all the posts I made when I was getting lynched and trying to still be helpful to town. This is also what convinced numerous people to switch off my case, including Xatalos, again a mathematical impossibility that all of you who switched are Mafia, some have to be town in there as well. If you think I'm good enough to lynch D3 now over Xatalos because of my WIFOM post about Acro during the night, what do you think of Xatalos' behavior in the meantime? You're going to say this is one of the good reasons why I should be lynched? Because I haven't provided town with good enough information, and I act constantly defensive because I have to constantly defend myself? I'm sorry but it's pretty true, it's hard to put up good cases under pressure, I can quote a post by Acrofales mentioning this. The two choices for D3 are either myself or Xatalos. Xatalos has provided town with good information where? Tunneling Yomi for so long, spamming the thread, arguing about blue roles and what they should be doing to Acro and Arctic, telling the DT to claim during N2 for no reason, buddying Acrofales so hard during the night phase of all times? We've both played terribly as town, the only debate as to who to lynch should obviously be who is more likelier to be scum since this is mylo and if we mislynch we lose. We're not going to have differing arguments as well to convince the rest of town, I think Xatalos is scummier, Xatalos thinks I am scummier, this doesn't really help town pick, but just clutters up the thread unless we're willing to speculate as to the other members of the Mafia team, which we are both unwilling to do because we both disagree on who they are and we have to guarantee a mafia lynch today no matter what in order to keep the game going as town. I've made my case against Xatalos supported by Hiro's previous case of his behavior and Xatalos's actions. Xatalos has made his case against me supported by Acrofales previous case against me and the reads he made during his last night alive as well as my actions. We are pretty evenly matched in scumminess in my honest opinion, I'm leaving the rest of the town to decide our fate, but I'm willing to answer any questions other than from Xatalos in order to keep the discussion going. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
On April 18 2012 12:34 yomi wrote: So you were afraid to post because it would make you look guilty. But when you were up on the chopping block you were willing to sacrifice yourself to give us the "connection" info that your flip would give us. At one point you are willing to engage in fearless town play, and at another trying to avoid suspicion at all costs. How can you reconcile these two positions? This is a fair point. When I decided to suicide myself, I had posted pretty much everything I could to be helpful, and I was agreeing with Xatalos' logic upon you defending me with no substantiation, something which you still haven't done. My flip would have shown that Dittert could be possible scum for tunneling a townie all game, or that you were Mafia as well because of how you buddied me and kept saying you thought I was town without backing it up with why. However, that was the D1 lynch, town can afford two mis-lynches, three in a row causes the game to be over, which is why I ramped up my defense as the game went on. I know I am town, I cannot afford to let my lynch go through now because we would lose the game. In the past, you've criticized Xatalos for spamming the thread and posting suspicion on 9/12 players in the entire game, do you find this transparent behavior by him better and more town-like? I have been attempting to be more transparent where I can, but I don't have the time with my school schedule to sit around and keep reading through the entire thread trying to overthink single words and phrases like Xatalos has done to try and prove my scumminess, ie "the town has lynched their doctor" instead of "our doctor," is a scumslip in his eyes" You used to consider me highly town, and Xatalos highly scummy, do you still hold this opinion, and please explain if you've changed your mind what did it? You haven't really posted much about the Xatalos/Willz vote started except for this. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
The Lack of Transparency You post this pretty early in the game: On April 13 2012 10:36 willz22912 wrote: You are trying to dissuade town from being transparent and posting their thoughts for fear of being a target by Mafia. I had this opinion too, why share your information so openly so early, but I learned from Gonzaw in Aperture Mafia that it's better to give 100% effort as town no matter if you die, in order to help the rest of the town figure out who's scum. Transparency and an active town is key to winning, you seem to be against this for fear of your own mortality, this is bad for town. I fully agree with this post, but it seems like you didn't. You only mentioned some exceptionally vague suspicions (imallinson and BroodKingEXE) and continued to hide your opinions until very late in Day 1. Even then, all you have is a pretty apathetic case on BroodKingEXE. It doesn't convince anyone, and you don't seem really convinced about it even yourself. BroodKingEXE actually does get lynched later, but it has nothing to do with your case. You promise to be more transparent after this, but I can't really see how you have achieved that. You take no stances during Day 2 except that lynching me "would give good information". Even more apathetic and lackluster reasoning than what you had for BroodKingEXE. After BroodKingEXE you haven't actually even made a single case or accused someone of being Mafia (except in a vague and forgettable way). All you have done is avoid suspicion or being identified with any particular lynch. The Apathy and the Hesitation I already touched on this point with the previous section, but your apathy towards lynching Mafia is spectacular. You seem to have no interest at all in lynching any particular player, except for information or confirming townies. Look at this post for example: On April 16 2012 02:24 willz22912 wrote: I know for myself that I am town, but I cannot prove it, so we should use this lynch to see what the real relationship is (if one of is us [Xatalos/Willz] scum) You seem to have a neutral / slight town read on me at that point, and you don't really offer any reasoning for voting me expect that my town flip would help yourself or my Mafia flip would implicate you (since I helped you during the Day 1 lynch). Considering you are Mafia, you already know I'm town, so this is a perfect opportunity to lynch me and get yourself some "credibility" considering past events. But if you are town, there is absolutely NO reason to lynch someone with a neutral / town read just for a small bit of information. You never take hard stances towards lynching, but rather say something vague like "his flip would give us information" or "he seems a bit suspicious lately". The Inconsistencies Your playstyle is very inconsistent. On the other hand, you avoid putting on pressure or making any kind of analysis. But on the other hand, when you are yourself under pressure, you become like a different person. Suddenly your posts are very convincing, logical and direct - the exact opposite of the usual hesitant, useless and vague. The Noob Card Although you are certainly one of the most skilled players in this game (at least when looking at your pressure deflection), when asked for explanations about your lack of interest in Mafia hunting, your answers are like this: On April 18 2012 22:39 willz22912 wrote: Do you really think it's easy to build cases against Mafia when you have low credibility and you are incurring claims of OMGUS every time you try to point something out? I had upwards of 6+ votes at one point, it's obviously mathematically impossible to say that only Mafia voted me, fellow town also did. I'm trying to read through the logic and see where the real Mafia are, but I am stuck with defending Dittert and myself, giving me no time to push my reads. What's the point in using all your energy to defend a random player and yourself? It's in no way helpful, actually it's confusing to only post defensively and never take stances on who you think are Mafia. I also find it highly unlikely you haven't had any (non-vague) Mafia reads in this game, while the rest of the town have been extremely suspicious of a lot of players. I also find your way of constantly playing the noob card disturbing: you are certainly among the better players here, you have had the best pressure deflection of anyone so far, yet you are too noob to have Mafia reads? This combination of facts doesn't make any sense, and you repeating the noob card over and over makes it even more suspect. The Henchman The last and the least of my arguments: funcmode. When you made your post that everyone called as "weird", "suspicious" or even "the most scummy post in the game"... What did funcmode have to say about it? At least that it was "weird" or "useless"? No, not at all. According to funcmode, it was a very pro-town post...! On April 18 2012 05:45 funcmode wrote: -This whole post comes across as very pro-town, largely in part because it agrees with many of the things I'm currently thinking. -(/facepalm) suggests some genuine townie disappointment. -Comments on defense of Acro by Xatalos. -Brings something new to the table (both winners in a previous mafia as scum which gives them an extra out with meta arguments, admits it's flimsy but still worthy of noting. I can see no reason for such a strange defense of Willz's (and the whole game's) worst post so far - unless Willz and funcmode are both Mafia. Granted, weird things can happen even without a malicious connection, but this just looks completely too weird and out of place. When you add this up with the earlier sections, them being Mafia&Mafia makes a lot of sense. However, I'm in no way suggesting a funcmode lynch right now, since Willz is even higher on my suspects - and we HAVE to lynch one Mafia now for certain or we lose. | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
You generally bring good arguments why you should not be considered as scummy as Xatalos here, but I noticed some details here and there which I'm not completely sure about: willz22912 wrote: Saying that too little defense is bad does not mean that more defense is always better. There is an optimum somewhere, and both of you have missed it by pretty much. Every sentence you write while being defensive could be used as a weapon against scum, instead of using it as a tool to escape your own lynch. You didn't really provide town with a better target after you were done with the initial defense, you let Xatalos do that job by making a good case against yomi (one of his real cases) which saved you.Comparing our martyrdom situations, I at least continued to be active and post while I was the majority vote, whereas Dittert saw himself as the majority vote and clammed up without providing any other useful information. Brood did the same thing with his scumslip and not even posting anything useful by the time he died. Both these actions were considered scummy enough to lynch for, but now you're lynching me for behaving the exact opposite way? willz22912 wrote: I'm actually saying this because you didn't have a whole lot of pressure on you on Day 2. Nobody ever voted for you that day, yet you pretty much only made some forgettable posts (I'm calling them that because I forgot about them; I had to read through you filter to find them). In hindsight after reading what you wrote there it makes quite some sense though, so I guess that's actually not too bad.You're going to say this is one of the good reasons why I should be lynched? Because I haven't provided town with good enough information, and I act constantly defensive because I have to constantly defend myself? I'm sorry but it's pretty true, it's hard to put up good cases under pressure, I can quote a post by Acrofales mentioning this. That said, mafia are usually the ones that care most about making their posts forgettable because they don't want to be in the spotlight, but they also want material to point to when they get suspected, so your Day 2 posts still make sense from a mafia point of view (clearly not only from there, I'm just considering possibilities here and that's not one to be discounted.) That's my advice for/case against willz. I haven't yet decided which of the two I should go with as I'm still very unsure of his alignment. Stay tuned for the next post, where I discuss Xatalos! | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
On April 19 2012 02:31 KharadBanar wrote: This is that post.Stay tuned for the next post, where I discuss Xatalos! I will take a different approach from willz here, because I had a very good defense post from willz to go from. With Xatalos, I am going to try to make some comments based on his general posting style which have been made before but need to be reminded of, and again they are meant to be good advice if he is town, but something for the others to consider as to if you're actually scum. My official opinion: I haven't decided yet whether to go with Xatalos or willz here. First off, some general remarks: One of the biggest problems I have with your posts is that some of them come about as giant walls of text. If you want people to trust you, they have to understand you first. If you want people to understand you, you have to make it easy for them. To make it easy for people to understand your posts, it would be advisable to post in a style people actually want to read. People want to read something with colour. People want to read something with weight. People want to read something with a pattern. People do not want a post which starts out decently only to devolve into a giant messy wall of text which their eyes can't follow and which is probably not all too well thought out in advance and has little to no interpunction and no paragraphs and just repeats itself over and over again and repeats itself over and over again and makes them want to stop reading at every corner because they are tired of making sense of your big sentence which grows ever longer and in the end has no real conclusion. You don't want to bury your important points inside a paragraph where no one will look twice because it's buried in between lines and lines of rambling which no one will ever get the gist of because you have preoccupied their concentration with making sure your sentence is actually grammatically correct and has all the right words in the right places to be actually still listening to what you are saying. Not all of your posts are like that. But if you really want to make something count, it will have to look more readable than for instance your defense against HiroPro. This has been alleviated somewhat in your recent postings, but I'm still writing about it here because I still think it is pretty damn important. Now about the implications of this: As I have said before but not elaborated too much upon in my post about willz, scum actually wants us to not remember what they said in their posts. This gives them the opportunity to say what they want first without you noticing it, then either cite it to hold it against you later or completely forget about it themselves and not have to worry about it. It also makes the town think "Yes, yes, this player is actually contributing" when in actuality all of it had no real meaning*. What this says about Xatalos I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. (Hint: It doesn't automatically make him scum, which is why I still haven't decided yet.) *INB4: If you're suddenly thinking "This man is a hypocrite! He said every post should carry meaning inside the game yet this has nothing to do with the game at all, it's just a posting style rant!", consider the following: Making yourself heard is an important subject in a Mafia game. If this advice helps you write more understandably in the future, more people will actually read what you have to say, and more people will actually understand it. Therefore if you take the time to have read and understood this, other people will take less time to read and understand your posts, and they can respond better to what you have to say. Reading this is not a waste of your time. Thank you for your attention. Everyone, get out there and post, and do so in a readable fashion! | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 19 2012 03:34 KharadBanar wrote: This is that post. I will take a different approach from willz here, because I had a very good defense post from willz to go from. With Xatalos, I am going to try to make some comments based on his general posting style which have been made before but need to be reminded of, and again they are meant to be good advice if he is town, but something for the others to consider as to if you're actually scum. My official opinion: I haven't decided yet whether to go with Xatalos or willz here. First off, some general remarks: One of the biggest problems I have with your posts is that some of them come about as giant walls of text. If you want people to trust you, they have to understand you first. If you want people to understand you, you have to make it easy for them. To make it easy for people to understand your posts, it would be advisable to post in a style people actually want to read. People want to read something with colour. People want to read something with weight. People want to read something with a pattern. People do not want a post which starts out decently only to devolve into a giant messy wall of text which their eyes can't follow and which is probably not all too well thought out in advance and has little to no interpunction and no paragraphs and just repeats itself over and over again and repeats itself over and over again and makes them want to stop reading at every corner because they are tired of making sense of your big sentence which grows ever longer and in the end has no real conclusion. You don't want to bury your important points inside a paragraph where no one will look twice because it's buried in between lines and lines of rambling which no one will ever get the gist of because you have preoccupied their concentration with making sure your sentence is actually grammatically correct and has all the right words in the right places to be actually still listening to what you are saying. Not all of your posts are like that. But if you really want to make something count, it will have to look more readable than for instance your defense against HiroPro. This has been alleviated somewhat in your recent postings, but I'm still writing about it here because I still think it is pretty damn important. Now about the implications of this: As I have said before but not elaborated too much upon in my post about willz, scum actually wants us to not remember what they said in their posts. This gives them the opportunity to say what they want first without you noticing it, then either cite it to hold it against you later or completely forget about it themselves and not have to worry about it. It also makes the town think "Yes, yes, this player is actually contributing" when in actuality all of it had no real meaning*. What this says about Xatalos I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. (Hint: It doesn't automatically make him scum, which is why I still haven't decided yet.) *INB4: If you're suddenly thinking "This man is a hypocrite! He said every post should carry meaning inside the game yet this has nothing to do with the game at all, it's just a posting style rant!", consider the following: Making yourself heard is an important subject in a Mafia game. If this advice helps you write more understandably in the future, more people will actually read what you have to say, and more people will actually understand it. Therefore if you take the time to have read and understood this, other people will take less time to read and understand your posts, and they can respond better to what you have to say. Reading this is not a waste of your time. Thank you for your attention. Everyone, get out there and post, and do so in a readable fashion! You didn't really mention much else than my writing style. What do you think of that case I made against Willz just a bit earlier? | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
 It's pretty good, both contentwise and stylewise, but the last argument didn't really convince me. funcmode was probably in crunch mode and didn't think much about the posts he commented about when he wrote that. To draw a possible mafia connection there seems really arbitrary to me. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 19 2012 03:57 KharadBanar wrote: Oh sorry. I was so occupied with putting my word out there that I didn't catch your post It's pretty good, both contentwise and stylewise, but the last argument didn't really convince me. funcmode was probably in crunch mode and didn't think much about the posts he commented about when he wrote that. To draw a possible mafia connection there seems really arbitrary to me. It just caught my attention since everyone else was suspicious of that post, but not funcmode. He even went as far as said it was "very pro-town", although it set my Mafia alarms ringing instantly. But I don't want the discussion to divert to funcmode, it should be focused on Willz for now (I just mentioned funcmode because it would look odd if nobody supported Willz, and there I found a pretty obvious supporting statement of his most Mafia-like moment.) | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 19 2012 03:57 KharadBanar wrote: Oh sorry. I was so occupied with putting my word out there that I didn't catch your post It's pretty good, both contentwise and stylewise, but the last argument didn't really convince me. funcmode was probably in crunch mode and didn't think much about the posts he commented about when he wrote that. To draw a possible mafia connection there seems really arbitrary to me. And also: thank you for the compliment, but did the other points convince you then? | ||
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KharadBanar
Austria463 Posts
This may sound waffly and bandwagony, but there are reasons behind it. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:13 KharadBanar wrote: I am going to wait to hear the other players' opinions until I make my final decision, since I a) don't want to influence the others too much while I'm not entirely sure what to do, and b) want to let their arguments influence my final decision, because it's final. This may sound waffly and bandwagony, but there are reasons behind it. Actually, I can think of a good reason for you to do that... Okay. Let's see what happens in the thread. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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imallinson
United Kingdom3482 Posts
##Vote: Willz22912 | ||
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funcmode
Australia720 Posts
First I'll address my defense of Willz's post, which I stated sounded very pro-town based on the fact that it agreed strongly with my own reads at the time (specifically Acro and Xatalos being a scummy tagteam - based largely on HiroPro's last statement and the seemingly great lengths both were willing to go to defend each other). You (Xatalos) state that I was the only person to defend his post which "everyone called as "weird", "suspicious" or even "the most scummy post in the game."" The reality is, only you and Acro originally called out the post as suspicious, which is obviously to be expected as it focused on both of you specifically. Only later did KB come out and say it sounded a bit suspect. Everyone else (Yomi, imallinson, Dittert and vonK) let it mostly slip under the radar. So I don't think it's fair to call me out on defending this post in the manner you did, especially since the underlying theory behind why I agreed with it and cited the post as "pro-town" ended up being completely false anyway. Moving on, I have a 99% town read on KB. If he knew I was town (aka he was mafia) it would have been easy for him to agree with the above accusation but instead he readily disputes it. Based on the fact that I know I'm town, there's no reason for him to do this other than him being town also. The only other alternative is that both of us are scum, which the two of us already know isn't true. After KB, the most townie read I'm getting is actually from Xatalos. Either you're a really, really good mafia or well, you're town obviously. Without a doubt the most active poster alongside the now proven townie Acro (who also went out of his way to defend Xatalos especially recently). There were (at times accurate) accusations of excessive clutter and lack of real direction, but I think you've definitely stepped up in that respect while maintaining a very active presence and pro-town attitude throughout the thread. Definitely worthy of congratulations if you end up winning as mafia, but for now I'm getting quite a strong town read. If though, Willz gets lynched and flips green, without a doubt Xatalos is scum but by that point it's already too late. Next on my least-scummy list would be vonK - though it's worth noting his presence recently has been a shadow of what it was earlier in the thread. He's slowly becoming slightly more suspicious, but already had a fair amount of town credibility based on the way he's been posting. I'm desperate to see what he thinks about the current Xatalos vs. Willz dispute, which could make or break the game right now. Overall a town read but some skepticism pending his next real post. After this it all starts getting a bit more hazy. Willz, Yomi, Dittert and imallinson's contributions to the thread have overall I think been rather lacking (I know coming from me this doesn't necessarily have much credibility but the point still stands). It wouldn't surprise me at all for any 3 of these 4 being the scum team. Dittert's posts and mentality confuse me a fair bit, the others just don't seem to have the most pro-town agenda even when themselves are being suspected. I'm not discounting Xatalos potentially being scum, but I do think one of either Xatalos or Willz has to be, and at this moment I'm leaning towards Willz. So much so I think I might even be more concerned with the matter of - if we lynch Willz/Xatalos and they are scum, where does that leave us in terms of finding the other 2? Perhaps trying to make a case for Willz/x/x or Xatalos/x/x is the best way of going forward, I'm not sure. If Willz and Xatalos ended up actually both being town, then that leaves Yomi, Dittert, imallinson and maybe even vonK as possible suspects - which to me is still totally plausible though far less likely than either Willz or Xatalos being involved. | ||
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Others, I'm just having a hard time understanding what exactly you want from us. Do you want me to post my other scum reads besides Xatalos? I will and have done so in the past 24 hours, so what is the point? This is the last lynch we will get as town, if we mis-lynch we lose the game, we need to guarantee a lynch goes through on everyone we can agree is Mafia, either myself or Xatalos, there are no other candidates so asking for other reads seems pretty counter-intuitive unless you want to try a hand at connection play (which made Acro decide that Hiro was aligned with Dittert and imallinson and got him lynched.) I'm also curious by the fact that none of you ever brought up the point I made about Xatalos mentioning a DT claim during the night and how even Acrofales thought that was a really dumb idea and anti-town. Why would any town think up that plan, why is everyone ignoring this, especially imallinson when he decided to vote me instead of Xatalos? | ||
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