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On December 29 2013 19:29 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 17:25 rauk wrote:
kwanro would never build a defiler if he didn't have to, bless his heart
seems more like you played against other players who were "casual" and don't really care about learning the way the game is played, not "okay" players I dunno rauk... they were in a league, so I don't think I'd call 'em straight casual. Now, did they sit around watching progamer replays all day long, in hopes of reaching something approaching that level? Nope, I will confess they did not. But they did play lots, and they had a good time doin' it. To me, that's the most important thing. Show nested quote +typically in zvp when toss has a whole control group of +1 sairs you won't even be close to greater spire so if you try to depend on devourers to take back air control you're going to have no overlords for a pretty long time As Birdie and I were discussing, there are things you do stopgap to try to deal with sairs 'til the devs come out. Your ovies definitely can't roam far from home while the 'toss has air superiority, I think we all get that.
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras
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On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras
And you can be in a league and be not casual. So?
Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs?
Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible.
But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know? 
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That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match 
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On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match
I'm not here to upset anyone. And I'm actually learning a few things from ppl's responses.
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On December 29 2013 20:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras And you can be in a league and be not casual. So? Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs? Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible. But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know?
using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply
maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about
also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways
On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match
if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol
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On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:
using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs.
you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply
maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about
also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways
Sigh. Okay, I'm starting to understand TL better now. There's a LOT of experienced ppl with, ahem, strong opinions who like to jump right in and express them. I actually dig that. 
But, the issue is, insufficient data/not really getting where someone's coming from. So, since you seem to care about this and are experienced, I'll flesh out the picture for you, Rauk. Then I think you'll be able to critique in a more-knowing way, and I'll be happy to accept said critique (unless it's extremely douchey).
So, to my best recollection, an example of what I'm talking about (this was a tourney game in the 'just for fun' league I used to play in):
Me and this other guy had one of our best-of-3 games on Lost Temple. He was Protoss, I was Zerg. I got the top position, and he got the eastern plateau.
I don't remember what happened in early game, but by midgame I had a shit-ton of hydras camped just outside his natural. He would try to break out from time to time with storm plus speedy zels and goons, but he would get beaten back every time. On the ground, he was contained.
He had 3 bases total: His main, his natural, and the island at lower-right. I had 4 or 5 bases (maybe 5 most of the time). At times he'd 'convoy' out via air (shuttles) and try to expand, or would drop on or near one of my smaller and further-away expansions. For awhile I'd beat back his drops with my very-mobile mutas, and would clobber his fledling expansion attempts with same. But then he got 'sairs.
My mutas were going poof then, so it was mostly up to speed hydras plus a lot of scouting to defend my expos and snuff his. My ovies couldn't leave their bases. But I had enough of a resource advantage that I could send hydras all over the map and STILL maintain my hydra contain on his main + natural. He wasn't able to establish a base beyond the 3 mentioned.
His main offense (beside the 'sairs and the failed breakout attempts) was to arbiter recall a bunch of goons into my main from time to time. But, I had several sunkens there, which would last just long enough so that the hydra cavalry from my contain could ride to the rescue and wipe out what was left of his 'goons. I'd lose the sunkens and a few hydras, but it was a fair trade and one I was willing to make considering I had more resources. He was punching himself out.
Nor could he break the contain while I was splitting my forces, because he was splitting forces too. Though in retrospect, the 'hydra cavalry' would've been faster had I made some Nydus Canals, as the observers to the match noted at the end. D'oh!
Though the flip side of that is, he kept on doing the recalls because to him they looked like they were ALMOST working. Had I had Nyduses, he might've gone a different, and better, route. I guess a mistake can work in your favor sometimes (though Nyduses to defend my expos would've been real nice, had I thought of it...)
I also got to scourge a couple of those Arbiters, 'til he got more careful with his air support.
Anyhow, his main was pretty much mined out, and his natural was getting there. It became obvious that his island expo was the main thing keeping him going. I think I tried to drop on it once, but sairs helped mess that up, along with some spore colonies.
I really, really, REALLY hated his sairs by this time. So I got devs.
I had lost every air battle up to this point (if you don't count scourging a couple of his arbiters), so it was really satisfying when my mixed air force beat him in the pivotal air battle. Devs went in first, drawing fire and putting some acid spores on him, scourges hit his flanks from both sides, and then the mutas (spaced out as best I could manage) came in. Acid spores let muta splash/richochets do a LOT of damage. 
With his air superiority gone, a doom drop took out the island. GG.
So, there's an example. You're free to tell me I suck from an INFORMED perspective now. 
(Sigh, TL. Thy name is drama.)
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On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras And you can be in a league and be not casual. So? Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs? Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible. But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know? using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol
sounds like you're getting trolled to me
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Starlight, it seems like you're coming back to Brood War and posting on these forums because you want to learn what's changed and possibly get better. That's great. Your last few posts with Rauk, however, have been a sort of argument over whether or not devourers are a good choice in PvZ. But if you're trying to learn, you're not really in a position to argue your own point, right?
In fact, Rauk's right, and he's laid out several very good reasons why devourers are not a good choice in PvZ. In fact, outside of the legendary game, Stork vs GGplay on Andromeda, and a few other PvZs on maps that are really good for Sair+Reaver, I can't remember a single time that I've ever seen devourers. And in that game, GGplay wasn't using devourers to just counter corsairs; he was using them to counter Corsair+Scout+Carrier+Arbiter. Protoss usually gets to a Corsair+Carrier combination from a Corsair+Reaver opening, as Stork did in this game. But at that stage, where P has maybe two control groups of +1 or +2 sairs along with 2 or 3 shuttles with reavers, you'll notice that high level Zergs DO NOT get devourers. They do exactly what Rauk said: speed overlords + mass hydras. They'll also research burrow, and use that to snipe shuttles and reavers. Getting devourers to counter sair+reaver is a good way to lose immediately.
Also, it's very difficult to analyze someone's game from a synopsis. It's always better if you have a replay that you can post. The biggest reason is that if you want us to analyze a game of yours, we'll be looking for your mistakes, so that we can tell you, "Here is where you made a mistake, and this is how you correct it." We do that because you don't know where your own mistakes are. If you knew exactly where you made each mistake, you could correct it and improve yourself without having to ask others for help. However, if you don't know what mistakes you're making, you're clearly not going to mention them when you describe what happened in your game, so we don't know how to help you!" You said yourself, in your synopsis, "I don't remember what happened in the early game!" This is by far the most important part! Just about everything you do wrong in your game will be the result of a mistake you made in your early game, snowballing into the mid- and late-game.
Still, from your game synopsis, I'm going to guess that busting his natural would have been a better choice than containing with hydras. Zerg usually tries to contain Protoss with lurker+ling, with scourges and speed overlords to snipe observers. If you have pure hydras, on the other hand, you should be able to bust through the natural.
Also, people are saying you're not very good because of a few indicators.
1.) You mentioned your friends played in a "league," but unless it's one of the ones that Rauk mentioned (iCCup, PGT, WGT), the league probably wasn't that good. And you haven't said it was one of those leagues, so we're assuming it's not.
2.) You say things like, "He got the eastern plateau." Starcraft lingo usually just uses clock numbers to describe positions, so in this case, on Lost Temple, you're 12 and he's 9. And instead of "plateau," terrain that is at the top of a ramp is called high ground.
3.) You're making very basic threads asking questions that could be answered with the most basic research. If you want to know units that don't get made, just watch some replays and see what units the pros don't make. There will always be exceptions, but you can get a general idea if you watch 20 ZvTs and queens only show up in one game.
I know BW forums here (and everywhere else, too) are not very active. It's been pretty dead ever since people switched over to SC2. The reason they're not active, though, is because we don't have people starting *NEW* discussion. The solution to this problem is not to ask basic questions that people have answered years ago. We have a search function for that.
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I think the point of devourers being good vs sairs isn't midgame he's going sairs I'll go devourers, it's oh late game he's going sairs (maybe with carrier) a couple devourers will help
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Valkyries are basically standard in TvZ/TvT
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On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras And you can be in a league and be not casual. So? Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs? Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible. But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know? using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol
It depends what your playstyle is. If you open 3 hatch muta +1 cara in which case you are often going to transition into guardians anyway, having a few devourers to stop protoss from regaining air-dominance late game isn't such a bad idea.
Thing is we didn't get to see much of muta/scourge ZvP because it developed just at the time Proleague transitioned to SC2. Protosses gave up trying to regain air-dominance and tried to take it on the ground but they would get finished by guardians. I'm pretty sure if the Protoss responded by building more sairs, that the Zerg would probably consider getting just a few devourers to slow him down and allow the transition to guardians.
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On December 29 2013 22:17 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:
using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs.
you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply
maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about
also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways Sigh. Okay, I'm starting to understand TL better now. There's a LOT of experienced ppl with, ahem, strong opinions who like to jump right in and express them. I actually dig that. But, the issue is, insufficient data/not really getting where someone's coming from. So, since you seem to care about this and are experienced, I'll flesh out the picture for you, Rauk. Then I think you'll be able to critique in a more-knowing way, and I'll be happy to accept said critique (unless it's extremely douchey). So, to my best recollection, an example of what I'm talking about (this was a tourney game in the 'just for fun' league I used to play in): Me and this other guy had one of our best-of-3 games on Lost Temple. He was Protoss, I was Zerg. I got the top position, and he got the eastern plateau. I don't remember what happened in early game, but by midgame I had a shit-ton of hydras camped just outside his natural. He would try to break out from time to time with storm plus speedy zels and goons, but he would get beaten back every time. On the ground, he was contained. He had 3 bases total: His main, his natural, and the island at lower-right. I had 4 or 5 bases (maybe 5 most of the time). At times he'd 'convoy' out via air (ovie transports) and try to expand, or would drop on or near one of my smaller and further-away expansions. For awhile I'd beat back his drops with my very-mobile mutas, and would clobber his fledling expansion attempts with same. But then he got 'sairs. My mutas were going poof then, so it was mostly up to speed hydras plus a lot of scouting to defend my expos and snuff his. My ovies couldn't leave their bases. But I had enough of a resource advantage that I could send hydras all over the map and STILL maintain my hydra contain on his main + natural. He wasn't able to establish a base beyond the 3 mentioned. His main offense (beside the 'sairs and the failed breakout attempts) was to arbiter recall a bunch of goons into my main from time to time. But, I had several sunkens there, which would last just long enough so that the hydra cavalry from my contain could ride to the rescue and wipe out what was left of his 'goons. I'd lose the sunkens and a few hydras, but it was a fair trade and one I was willing to make considering I had more resources. He was punching himself out. Nor could he break the contain while I was splitting my forces, because he was splitting forces too. Though in retrospect, the 'hydra cavalry' would've been faster had I made some Nydus Canals, as the observers to the match noted at the end. D'oh! Though the flip side of that is, he kept on doing the recalls because to him they looked like they were ALMOST working. Had I had Nyduses, he might've gone a different, and better, route. I guess a mistake can work in your favor sometimes (though Nyduses to defend my expos would've been real nice, had I thought of it...) I also got to scourge a couple of those Arbiters, 'til he got more careful with his air support. Anyhow, his main was pretty much mined out, and his natural was getting there. It became obvious that his island expo was the main thing keeping him going. I think I tried to drop on it once, but sairs helped mess that up, along with some spore colonies. I really, really, REALLY hated his sairs by this time. So I got devs. I had lost every air battle up to this point (if you don't count scourging a couple of his arbiters), so it was really satisfying when my mixed air force beat him in the pivotal air battle. Devs went in first, drawing fire and putting some acid spores on him, scourges hit his flanks from both sides, and then the mutas (spaced out as best I could manage) came in. Acid spores let muta splash/richochets do a LOT of damage. With his air superiority gone, a doom drop took out the island. GG. So, there's an example. You're free to tell me I suck from an INFORMED perspective now. (Sigh, TL. Thy name is drama.)
look at it from our perspective: a newbie who hasn't played in a very long time is trying to tell active players who are relatively higher level that they're wrong. there's no drama here; you're wrong and i'm trying to explain to you why you're wrong
you were claiming that devourers should be a standard response to sairs. the only real time devourers are useful in zvp is late, late game when you've split the map and it's 50+ minutes, not as a solution where you're trying to hold on vs sairs with scourge and hydra until finally you reach hive and morph devourers. in your game making them wasn't terrible i guess, but from the way you described the rest of the game there are a lot of things wrong with what you were doing
first, nydus once you have hive is standard and you should have a nydus from your natural to each expo so you can be very mobile in your defense. second, you contained with hydras instead of lurkers. with a lurker field you can stop him from breaking out with a much lower investment in the forces outside his natural; he has to use reavers + obs and that's easy to snipe with speed overlords and scourge. you also didn't build lurkers and spores along with the sunkens for defense in the late game, because that plus cracklings means protoss has to commit his entire army to break a base. third, you didn't build defilers. if you're trying to break his natural, you need dark swarm. defilers are also great against sairs because you can plague them all and then they're completely useless. fourth, late game and no crackling/ultra? cracklings destroy goons so hard and are much faster than hydras, so if you tried to defend his goon recalls with cracklings instead of hydras you'd be trading maybe 300-400 minerals for 1k+ minerals and gas, which is way more efficient than hydras. plus crackling ultra wipes goon zeal so hard, and it doesn't sound like you had any problems with archons or reavers
On December 30 2013 02:31 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 20:53 rauk wrote:On December 29 2013 20:05 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 29 2013 19:33 rauk wrote:
you can be in a league and still be casual
if you're trying to use devourers to stop sairs you're a bad player, end of story
you stop mass sair with overlord speed and mass hydra and you a-move his base because he has a bunch of sairs and no army. or you can turtle with +1 air armor, scourge and spores and then a-move his base with cracklings and ultras And you can be in a league and be not casual. So? Far as dev usage making you a 'bad player', I dunno... devs + scourge + mutas sure beat 'sairs for me. Maybe the other guy just didn't have enough sairs? Your points on ground-attacking a guy going heavy air are well-taken, and I agree that's a good way to go where possible. But, I couldn't really mass ground-attack his island base with his sairs shooting down the drop attempts, y'know? using devourers against sairs is bad because it's a situation that will never happen in a standard game. rushing hive tech to defend forge fe stargate +1 sair is a monumentally terrible idea because it sets you incredibly far behind in economy because you've wasted gas on a queens nest, hive, greater spire, and then however many devourers you make just to defend a couple of +1 sairs. you should spend your gas on overlord speed, which is incredibly good anyways, and make hydras which you need for a midgame army anyways, and you've defended sairs without even deviating from a normal hydra oriented zvp. or you can turtle to hive on 4gas but instead save all your gas for things like upgrades, defilers, and ultralisks. getting devourers just requires so much tech and money to defend something that can be defended far more cheaply maybe hive rush vs sair is a "good" idea specifically on an island map where your starting position has enough gasses to support all your tech, but true island maps (not counting stuff like monty hall) haven't been played in competitive broodwar for at least 9 years, so it's not a situation i care about also zerg always loses on island maps because you can never get gas expansions anyways On December 29 2013 20:07 hitthat wrote:That discusion above looks like an eve of a grudge match if he's never even played iccup/pgt/wgt it would be an extremely boring grudge match lol It depends what your playstyle is. If you open 3 hatch muta +1 cara in which case you are often going to transition into guardians anyway, having a few devourers to stop protoss from regaining air-dominance late game isn't such a bad idea. Thing is we didn't get to see much of muta/scourge ZvP because it developed just at the time Proleague transitioned to SC2. Protosses gave up trying to regain air-dominance and tried to take it on the ground but they would get finished by guardians. I'm pretty sure if the Protoss responded by building more sairs, that the Zerg would probably consider getting just a few devourers to slow him down and allow the transition to guardians.
yeah i might get devs to defend my guards in that case. for me 3hat muta zvps are typically pretty allin and i like transitioning to hydra lurker better than rushing hive. if i still have any mutas left over i'd get a casual greater spire and make some guards just because i have money when i reach hive but i don't think i'd make them the main focus of my gameplay so i probably wouldn't get any devourers in that case, more gas wasted on sairs = fewer ht/archon/reaver
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On December 30 2013 01:16 traceurling wrote:
I think the point of devourers being good vs sairs isn't midgame he's going sairs I'll go devourers, it's oh late game he's going sairs (maybe with carrier) a couple devourers will help
Yup.
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On December 30 2013 21:09 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 01:16 traceurling wrote:
I think the point of devourers being good vs sairs isn't midgame he's going sairs I'll go devourers, it's oh late game he's going sairs (maybe with carrier) a couple devourers will help Yup.
sair carrier almost never happens because it requires protoss to turtle for an incredibly long time and you can break him long before he begins any kind of carrier production with drops or just swarm and amove. if he attempts to go 2 base carrier then he's lost the game anyways
also plague is a much better option in that case because if you plague his interceptors they go back inside the carrier and don't regen hp and carriers don't send out interceptors with low hp so his carriers literally sit there doing nothing. since you research plague to begin with in a standard zvp unless you started off with a mass muta midgame and aimed to go for guardians there's still no real reason to get a greater spire
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I feel we're being troll somehow.
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On December 30 2013 07:03 rauk wrote:
look at it from our [?] perspective: a newbie who hasn't played in a very long time is trying to tell active players who are relatively higher level that they're wrong.
Well, when I think 'newbie', I think of a guy who types 'NO RUSH GAME' at the start, and then proceeds to turtle in his main while I or someone else takes the entire map. Or maybe a bunch of guys who manage to lose a 6 humans vs 2 cpu's match (actually saw this in-person at a computer gaming place one time  ).
And I'm not trying to tell 'high level active players' that they're wrong... I'm telling one specific player that, IME and in certain situations, devs aren't completely useless. You believe that they are – okay, fine – but the comments of some others in the thread don't seem to completely square with that.
So, it's not that I'm not listening to you, Rauk, because I am. It's that I'm listening to everyone else too, plus what's happened to me in my own games.
you were claiming that devourers should be a standard response to sairs.
No. If you look back through the thread, I didn't really say that. I did say they worked for me when I did use 'em, but that was absent the context(s) in which I used 'em.
So, I later provided a (long) example/sample situation where I used 'em... in late game, to break an opponent's air control so I could doom drop an island expansion. Even you say elsewhere that what I did there 'wasn't terrible' (backhanded compliment, but I'll take it), though I certainly did make a number of mistakes in that game.
from the way you described the rest of the game there are a lot of things wrong with what you were doing
first, nydus once you have hive is standard and you should have a nydus from your natural to each expo so you can be very mobile in your defense
Yup, absolutely, and I already noted that I screwed up there.
second, you contained with hydras instead of lurkers. with a lurker field you can stop him from breaking out with a much lower investment in the forces outside his natural; he has to use reavers + obs and that's easy to snipe with speed overlords and scourge. you also didn't build lurkers and spores along with the sunkens for defense in the late game, because that plus cracklings means protoss has to commit his entire army to break a base. third, you didn't build defilers. if you're trying to break his natural, you need dark swarm. defilers are also great against sairs because you can plague them all and then they're completely useless. fourth, late game and no crackling/ultra? cracklings destroy goons so hard and are much faster than hydras, so if you tried to defend his goon recalls with cracklings instead of hydras you'd be trading maybe 300-400 minerals for 1k+ minerals and gas, which is way more efficient than hydras. plus crackling ultra wipes goon zeal so hard, and it doesn't sound like you had any problems with archons or reavers
See, now this is good stuff, and exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear. I did go 'hydra happy' in that game, and it's good to hear someone say, "Don't do that, dammit."
So, I do thank you for the good critique, Rauk. I already knew some of my errors from the game (including some, but not all, of the things you mention above), but its good to hear it confirmed and expanded upon. I got away with being inefficient due to my considerable resources advantage, and you certainly can't count on that every game.
And this is one of the nice things about TL... great advice. If one has a thick skin.
Thank you again.
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sair carrier almost never happens because it requires protoss to turtle for an incredibly long time and you can break him long before he begins any kind of carrier production with drops or just swarm and amove. if he attempts to go 2 base carrier then he's lost the game anyways
I think it was quite popular on Arcadia, Requiem and Andromeda. Any map that is good for corsair reaver is ok to transition into carriers as well. Basically any map where protoss can get a lot of bases and take advantage of islands with an air fleet and 3+ gases. On Arcadia it felt like literally every PvZ sometimes.
Similar to queen usage in ZvT. It's a response to a huge mech army on several bases. Devs are a response to a huge corsair fleet. Valks are a response to huge wraith fleets.
All Brood War units are beautiful But the games Starlight is describing are in no way too bad or too nooby. His league may be a microcosm and everyone in it may be have 80 APM, but it's still good competition between them. I really enjoyed when I played in a microcosm like that. It forces players to try to innovate on their own, and that is part of the joy of SC.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
I only play Terran and I only play mech so the units I don't think I've managed to build even once since coming back is medics and firebats. I rarely use ghosts as well but I would like to mix them in at some point in late game TvT but I like BCs too much if it gets to that phase.
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On December 30 2013 21:21 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 21:09 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 30 2013 01:16 traceurling wrote:
I think the point of devourers being good vs sairs isn't midgame he's going sairs I'll go devourers, it's oh late game he's going sairs (maybe with carrier) a couple devourers will help Yup. sair carrier almost never happens because it requires protoss to turtle for an incredibly long time and you can break him long before he begins any kind of carrier production with drops or just swarm and amove. if he attempts to go 2 base carrier then he's lost the game anyways also plague is a much better option in that case because if you plague his interceptors they go back inside the carrier and don't regen hp and carriers don't send out interceptors with low hp so his carriers literally sit there doing nothing. since you research plague to begin with in a standard zvp unless you started off with a mass muta midgame and aimed to go for guardians there's still no real reason to get a greater spire
Or it can happen in around 25 minutes as a transition from sair/reaver/disruption web
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I personally play on Fish and I see lots (lots) of Arbiters. Queens are only made against me in the case where I make BCs (imagine a BC with Ensnare on it, you know it will never reach the Zerg bases. Infested Terrans are sometimes made to troll me (or once or twice in very long games) . Dark Archons are never made though but a korean friend of mine told me Dark Archon are strong in late game PvZ, I don't know if those are commons though. I personally make use of Valks against Zergs whom have good muta micro (when I can't get SV fast enough and when the Zerg is heavily committing to mutas). I sometimes amke Ghosts in TvT or TvP (late game, when zoning the opponent is crucial). Scouts however seem to me as being a rather useless unit to me.
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EPT
