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On December 28 2013 15:42 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.
A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad. Same can be said about a protoss and arbiters.
Are devourers so bad now nobody even include them in their lists? 
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Devourers are usefull late ZvZ only. And we all know how often we have late ZvZ....
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On December 29 2013 02:15 hitthat wrote:
Devourers are usefull late ZvZ only. And we all know how often we have late ZvZ....
Pretty good vs Corsair/Carrier
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On December 29 2013 01:41 Golondrin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 15:42 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.
A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad.
So we basically agree that Zergs who don't use defilers can be good? You just make 'em and use 'em and shake 'em and bake 'em and then it can make you an even better player.
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On December 28 2013 17:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?
Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.
Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.
The sprite bug is still in effect but it normally only happens on money maps because they're full of sprites, in a regular 1v1 you can have 12 or more valks and they will all fire in battle.
On another note, anyone remember that map that had a neutral CC in the middle that zerg could infest? Infested terrans are better in ZvP than in ZvT.
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On December 29 2013 03:52 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 17:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?
Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.
Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.
The sprite bug is still in effect but it normally only happens on money maps because they're full of sprites, in a regular 1v1 you can have 12 or more valks and they will all fire in battle. On another note, anyone remember that map that had a neutral CC in the middle that zerg could infest? Infested terrans are better in ZvP than in ZvT.
Holy World it was an interesting map....
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Infested terrans and queens...
and rarely scouts or valks
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On December 29 2013 02:15 hitthat wrote:
Devourers are usefull late ZvZ only. And we all know how often we have late ZvZ....
Devourers are used in ZvT as well, when you morph mutas into guardians you can morph one into a devourer to help ward off the first wraith that comes to shoot all the guardians.
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Netherlands5689 Posts
On December 28 2013 17:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?
Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.
Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.
The bug still exists. I love using valkyries in TvZ and from my experience having more than 7-8 valks to attack the same area, doesn't do more dps to that area.
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On December 29 2013 09:44 Peeano wrote:
The [valk sprite] bug still exists. I love using valkyries in TvZ and from my experience having more than 7-8 valks to attack the same area, doesn't do more dps to that area.
Thank you. So, most folks would agree that 7-8 is about the limit for # of valks you have before you run into the bug?
(And if so, why has Bliz never fully fixed the bug? Is it a matter of "thats the most the game can do on the listed minimum system requirements"?? =\ )
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On December 29 2013 01:41 Golondrin wrote:A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad. Same can be said about a protoss and arbiters. Are devourers so bad now nobody even include them in their lists?
I use defilers. Am I a good zerg player? 
For 'toss, to be fair, it was the race I played least, and a lot of those games didn't go to late game for me... I'd either clean the other person's clock in early or mid-game, or get mine cleaned. And my opponents didn't seem to use arbiters much, and when they did, it wasn't terribly effectively.
In retrospect it seems obvious that I played against 'okay' players, not real good ones. Which is why I'm asking you nice folks things. 
Far as devourers go, I remember using them. Ppl are saying they only work in ZvZ, but they were helpful to me in ZvP too... typical usage would be, "ZOMG, my air's getting pwned by 'sairs!". And then a combined force of devs, scourge, and mutas would then pwn their 'sairs right back.
Devs saved my scaly zerg behind more than once. Is that atypical?
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In competitive 1v1 you won't be able to get hive at the time that you need to deal with corsairs, so usually mass scourge is used to try to keep them under control. If sair numbers get too large for scourge, then you switch to hydra and spore colonies, and forget about getting air control for now.
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@Birdie – Yep, exactly, the 'sairs would terrorize my air for awhile before the devs would come out, and then the tables would turn.
And just as you say, once they had a certain critical mass of 'sairs, scourge alone couldn't do much.
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On December 29 2013 11:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:@Birdie – Yep, exactly, the 'sairs would terrorize my air for awhile before the devs would come out, and then the tables would turn. And just as you say, once they had a certain critical mass of 'sairs, scourge alone couldn't do much.
Usually by the time you have hive tech, it's much more efficient to use crackling defiler lurker than to try for air control, particularly as Protoss will have templar tech out by then.
Did you ever play on iCCup or the other private servers?
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On December 28 2013 03:49 Jumperer wrote:
Dark templars
Huehuehue
Scouts are pretty rare, more so than BCs I think.
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On December 29 2013 13:44 Birdie wrote
Usually by the time you have hive tech, it's much more efficient to use crackling defiler lurker than to try for air control, particularly as Protoss will have templar tech out by then.
Yep, for sure. But sometimes you don't have too much choice, like on island maps, or land maps that have island bases on them that you want to take out (Temple).
Did you ever play on iCCup or the other private servers?
Nope. I was out of BW long before iCCup showed up.
I was in a small league for awhile though. It was fun, extremely laid-back I guess by TL standards. 
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On December 29 2013 15:58 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 13:44 Birdie wrote
Usually by the time you have hive tech, it's much more efficient to use crackling defiler lurker than to try for air control, particularly as Protoss will have templar tech out by then. Yep, for sure. But sometimes you don't have too much choice, like on island maps, or land maps that have island bases on them that you want to take out (Temple). Nope. I was out of BW long before iCCup showed up. I was in a small league for awhile though. It was fun, extremely laid-back I guess by TL standards.
Yeah island maps aren't usually used any more in tournaments. I wasn't really around when they were so I'm not sure why (perhaps one race was imba on island maps?).
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On December 29 2013 03:35 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 01:41 Golondrin wrote:On December 28 2013 15:42 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.
A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad. So we basically agree that Zergs who don't use defilers can be good? You just make 'em and use 'em and shake 'em and bake 'em and then it can make you an even better player.
kwanro would never build a defiler if he didn't have to, bless his heart
On December 29 2013 10:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2013 01:41 Golondrin wrote:A zerg player that doesn't use defilers is just bad. Same can be said about a protoss and arbiters. Are devourers so bad now nobody even include them in their lists? I use defilers. Am I a good zerg player? For 'toss, to be fair, it was the race I played least, and a lot of those games didn't go to late game for me... I'd either clean the other person's clock in early or mid-game, or get mine cleaned. And my opponents didn't seem to use arbiters much, and when they did, it wasn't terribly effectively. In retrospect it seems obvious that I played against 'okay' players, not real good ones. Which is why I'm asking you nice folks things. Far as devourers go, I remember using them. Ppl are saying they only work in ZvZ, but they were helpful to me in ZvP too... typical usage would be, "ZOMG, my air's getting pwned by 'sairs!". And then a combined force of devs, scourge, and mutas would then pwn their 'sairs right back. Devs saved my scaly zerg behind more than once. Is that atypical?
seems more like you played against other players who were "casual" and don't really care about learning the way the game is played, not "okay" players
typically in zvp when toss has a whole control group of +1 sairs you won't even be close to greater spire so if you try to depend on devourers to take back air control you're going to have no overlords for a pretty long time
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On December 29 2013 16:46 Birdie wrote:
Yeah island maps aren't usually used any more in tournaments.
I wasn't really around when they were so I'm not sure why (perhaps one race was imba on island maps?).
I still dig 'em. Nor was my play ever solely determined by what was and wasn't used in tourneys.
// (is that a heretical thing to say on TL? )
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On December 29 2013 17:25 rauk wrote:
kwanro would never build a defiler if he didn't have to, bless his heart
seems more like you played against other players who were "casual" and don't really care about learning the way the game is played, not "okay" players
I dunno rauk... they were in a league, so I don't think I'd call 'em straight casual.
Now, did they sit around watching progamer replays all day long, in hopes of reaching something approaching that level? Nope, I will confess they did not. But they did play lots, and they had a good time doin' it. To me, that's the most important thing.
typically in zvp when toss has a whole control group of +1 sairs you won't even be close to greater spire so if you try to depend on devourers to take back air control you're going to have no overlords for a pretty long time
As Birdie and I were discussing, there are things you do stopgap to try to deal with sairs 'til the devs come out. Your ovies definitely can't roam far from home while the 'toss has air superiority, I think we all get that.
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EPT
