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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Oh you would be surprised how much sense this setup makes to me. I remember seeing ~2 control groups of Ultralisks ramming a wide open flank on a Terran... and they were slaughtered... done 3 times in a row (well the last time there were fewer due to exhausted econ). Think it was Zero or someone similar in skill who did that. Point is, Tank vs Ultralisk battles were heavily Tank favored as long as they were spread decently. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On September 02 2013 19:05 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: @Hider Oh you would be surprised how much sense this setup makes to me. I remember seeing ~2 control groups of Ultralisks ramming a wide open flank on a Terran... and they were slaughtered... done 3 times in a row (well the last time there were fewer due to exhausted econ). Think it was Zero or someone similar in skill who did that. Point is, Tank vs Ultralisk battles were heavily Tank favored as long as they were spread decently. They weren't in my tests. It was in a clump. Further remember that maps in Sc2 are much more narrow than in BW. Thus splash units needs to in general be a bit worse. The scenario Itested in the unit tester is quite unlikely to ever happen in real life. In real life it would favor terran much more. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Zealots are good at dealing with Tanks because they force a lot of wasted shots and have an easy time surrounding tanks when they get close. Ultralisks let Tanks become cost effective with every single shot (without even factoring splash), and have a hard time surrounding Tanks. If Chitinus plating did not add armor but instead HP, Ultralisks would become MUCH better against Tanks, but then they would melt to Marines. One possible solution is to make Chitinus plating reduce incoming damage by 20-30%, letting Ultralisks be just as good against Marines and Zealots, but also good at soaking damage from Reavers or Tanks. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On September 02 2013 19:51 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: Hmm, that a bit intese yeah. But the fact is that the highest possible DPS a tank can have is when it shoots Ultralisks. And Ultralisks have a hard time dealing damage to Tanks due to unit size. Sure an Ultralisk that actually manages to be on top of a Tank will kill it easitly, but that does not help when 5+ tanks kills half your army before it can close the gap. Zealots are good at dealing with Tanks because they force a lot of wasted shots and have an easy time surrounding tanks when they get close. Ultralisks let Tanks become cost effective with every single shot (without even factoring splash), and have a hard time surrounding Tanks. If Chitinus plating did not add armor but instead HP, Ultralisks would become MUCH better against Tanks, but then they would melt to Marines. One possible solution is to make Chitinus plating reduce incoming damage by 20-30%, letting Ultralisks be just as good against Marines and Zealots, but also good at soaking damage from Reavers or Tanks. I think we should just keep the upgrade, and also give them a speed upgrade as well. Im pretty sure Ultras need to be better than in BW for these reasons; 1) Mech seems stronger early game vs zerg than in BW due to reactor vulture openings (assuming slow vultures get their speed back) and mutalisk threat less early game. 2) We have maurauders and immortals in Sc2 which means that standard protoss and bio compostiions fares better vs ultralisks. 3) Terran has better tools at harassing late game vs zerg which means the economic assymetry won't be as large as in BW. 4) I think Kabel, Dirty and I agree on the premise of giving Dark Swarm a less important role in the matchup. I think in BW it seemed pretty decent due the different mechanics of that game, but it feels really boring in Sbow. This means that standard zerg units should be a bit better in the late game vs tanks. So it is important that we understand the way these differences between Sbow and BW impacts the matchup dynamics and make changes accordingly (rather than blindly implementing BW stats). | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
then lings and ultras slaughter everything else.. point is.. terran need tanks or zerg can trade effectively.. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
ultras move very fast in bw, almost as fast as a speed zergling | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Hopefully nothing is broken. Gotta drop off the GF ! See you guys on in an hour. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
They overkill. Keeping them in a clump is inferior to spreading them out, especially vs a group of attackers that attack when more spread out. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On September 03 2013 03:25 decemberscalm wrote: BTW Hider, tanks are not smart in SBOW. They overkill. Keeping them in a clump is inferior to spreading them out, especially vs a group of attackers that attack when more spread out. I was basing this off your quote below But also consider how damn good Terran aoe (siege and mines) are compared to BW because of the smart pathing system. Anyway, if I have misunderstood something. My bad. But I would still like to see tanks with lower damage vs normal (wouldn't affect TvP then), so they rape hydras less, and instead terran should be compensated with the old strenght of the reaper + vulture harass oriented opening. I believe that makes the game a bit more dynamic and actionpacked. In BW mech tvz seemed to didn't have a midgame as nothing really happened untill mutas came out (based on a few tvz's i watched earlier today). | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Edit: Throwing in my bit on the Chrono situation. Chrono should not require an upgrade, because there is little decision involved in it. If the spell is powerful enough to justify an upgrade, players will almost always get it as soon as they are able to, because there is no opportunity cost involved on the Nexus. The short amount of Probe build time you lose will be made up very rapidly by the Chrono itself, and 75-100 minerals is pittance. On the other hand, if the spell is not powerful enough, they usually won't bother upgrading it. The reason Orbital Command works as an upgrade is because Command Centers also have the option to become Planetary Fortresses - that means there is a mutually exclusive upgrade path, an opportunity cost. The reason Queens work is because they are a versatile and vulnerable mobile unit, which is a whole different animal entirely than macro spells on the main structure. It's just plain unnecessary. If Chrono is available too early, there are other ways to delay it - make the spell have a prerequisite structure, like requires Forge or Cybernetics Core. An upgrade is needless added complexity. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
This is, imo, a pure early-game problem. As my numbers show, SCV-calldown is one of the stronges eco-mechanics in the game atm, and I think it is underused because it pales in comparison with the M.U.L.E. I know my tests are not "real Starbow" and that terrans get an OC later than what I did (usually). But give the OC 3-4 call-dows and you are neck and neck with toss economy IF he chornos ONLY workers! The problem is not eco, imo and it seems to be your opinion as well, the problem is the early pressure that chorno can buff. So my suggestion remains: 1. Let chronoboost (and maye rift for that matter) be activated once the first gateway is finished and let the nexus start with 0 energy. It takes about 45-50 sec to regen 25 energy (ca. 0,58 / sec) so you can only chronoboost the last part of your second zealot. This should make the PvZ and PvT tmings easier to deal, but still make them quite strong (we should have some early-game aggression after all, and not just turteling..). 2. Let chornoboost have approx SC2 stats. This is to keep up with eco. Hopefully it won't break tech, as this is not a huge buff. Point is, chrono pales in comparison to call-down SCV as an eco ability no matter how you put it. 17 sec vs 14 sec is HUGE! 3. Sure, let OC be 75 minerals. We might see them earlier. Heck, we might see players who call down like clockwork have really good eco and nerf it back to 100 minerals  I think this is the most optimal solution atm. I will gladly do so tests in numbers IF there is a consensus to do this (or else I am just wasting my time...) | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
why do u want chrono boost for free so badly? If scv calldown is better, simple nerf it? Or buff chrono even more? you said it is 14sec vs 17sec. I thought it was something more complicated than this tbh, I just played with it, it feels great. More fun. More rewarding. More fair. You can come up with builds with it, it gives so much instead of simple having it for free. Orbital command must be upgraded for 100minerals/35~ sec Buildtime = 2~scvs lost while upgrading on every command center. Chronoboost makes protoss have more probes than terran. Before 1min. Right when he uses his first CB he gets an advantage, how is this good in anyway? Everytime protoss makes a nexus, he gets CB for free. A real game is very diffent than your testing. What if protoss goes two fast expansions = Three xChronoboost for free. In your test terran upgraded to OB right hwen barack finished. Right now it is not the case and in a real game no one sits on one base for 15min. Which means after every comamnd center terran lose scvs by just upgrading it =even more behind The problem is not eco, imo and it seems to be your opinion as well No, the eco is one of the problems. And it is a big one. We dont even yet have the right stuff from BW. So gameplay will change. Alot probably. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
No, the eco is one of the problems. And it is a big one. We dont even yet have the right stuff from BW. So gameplay will change. Alot probably. All economy values in Starbow are the same as in SC2BW. The only difference is that workers build 2 seconds slower. But in return, races have macro mechanics to speed up worker production. SC2BW economy might not be exactly identical to BW. But still close enough, I assume. Do you think the economy feels bad? Cause everything is identical in Starbow now to SC2BW O_o | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 03 2013 08:49 Kabel wrote: All economy values in Starbow are the same as in SC2BW. The only difference is that workers build 2 seconds slower. But in return, races have macro mechanics to speed up worker production. SC2BW economy might not be exactly identical to BW. But still close enough, I assume. Do you think the economy feels bad? Cause everything is identical in Starbow now to SC2BW O_o Already told you this in game, but not convinced SC2BW works at the same scale. Will have to test with a timer, different builds from BW to SBOW. Also, how long each worker takes to travel. | ||
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