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@The coming patch
I am currently working on a new patch. First of all, I am quite pleased with the game and most of the match-ups. But there are still room for improvements.
List of remaining problems:
+ Show Spoiler + - In terms of gameplay/balance, the major problem is still TvP, and all of its match-up problems.
(With or without the Marauder/Immortal)
- Fix the Warp gate / Gateway system.
- Rework or take a second look at some unit relationsships (For example, Goliaths too good vs Carriers?)
- Make sure the design and balance is ok for unused units, like Devourer, Scout, Viper, Ghost, BC etc. (Might be due to the meta-game they never see play. I just want to make sure they are neither worthless or broken, at least.)
- Establish a decent balance between the races. (We are on our way.)
- Establish a decent gameplay, where "lame playstyles" are not the best way to play.
(For example make sure turtling, heavy deathballing, extremely greedy play etc can be punished. We seem to be on our way here too, and most of the match-ups look good IMO)
- Fix the economy. There might be additional tweaks needed.
- Fix bugs (My never ending list ) I am especially sad that Defilers can not burrow, due to the model lacks the animation for doing so. Not sure how to solve it.
As usual, this patch will contain a portion of bug fixes. In terms of changes to units/balance/stuff in the game, the main focus will be on TvP.
I have not changed anything in the game yet, except some bug fixes. I am not convinced which way to go.
Here is one solution I wrote about for TvP, without Immortal or Marauder;
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=341#6802(I might end up doing something like this for the coming patch, since it has potential to "solve" the match-up) We currently have the Immortal/Marauder in the game. If I remove them, they have to be gone. I can not go back and forth forever and remove them, re-add them, remove them etc..: / So I will base this post on the info written in my last major post, linked above. Here I will look at an alternative "solution", but with many similarities, just a few differences.
Another solution to the same TvP problems?
+ Show Spoiler +Out of the two units - Immortal and Marauder, I do like the Immortal more in Starbow. Even though it arguably overlaps with some units in the Protoss arsenal (Archon for example), it still has potential room in the game and in the match-ups. After all, it is a simple, strong and slow beefy midgame unit, who offers some diversity to Protoss, and feels different from the swift Stalker and fast Zealot. - The PvPs I´ve seen so far look more interesting with the Stalker > Zealot > Immortal > Stalker - dynamic. More room for variations, and with the Sentinel at the Stargate, that tech tree becomes a good alternative to the standard Robotic facility. (If I go for the solution I wrote in the post linked above, I still fear we will see mass Stalkers vs mass Stalkers + Reavers every game.)One problem with the current Immortal is that it is arguably too narrow atm, since there are few armored ground units it is useful against. If we change just change the damage, the stats will look like this: >>> + Show Spoiler +Cost 150/100
HP 100
Shield 150
Range 6
Damage maybe 15 vs light, 30 vs armored and medium (Instead of only dealing huge bonus vs armored)
Built from Robotic facility
Still no Hardened Shield.
This would make it a strong vs Vultures, Tanks, Goliaths, Hydras, Lurkers, Ultras, Stalkers, Immortals, Archons and structures. In other words, it would become more useful vs more units, and not be so narrow anymore. We might see more mixes of Stalker/Zealot/Immortal + other tech units, in different ways, in different match-ups, depending on Protoss playstyle. <<<
And why is it important to have a unit like this?
+ Show Spoiler +It would give Protoss a stronger midgame, so they do not have to "rush" to the higher tech units.
(That was one of the negative aspects players told me earlier in Starbow - P has Zealot and Stalker, then they must tech to Reaver/HT/Archon/Carrier to do something more meaningful. Though, we did not have the Sentinel in the game at that time.)
Simply put, the Immortal allows for more variation in the Protoss core units, in all match-ups.
Meanwhile, I have a hard time to fit the Marauder into the game. I look for solutions and rearrangements in stats, but I just do not find anything good enough. Everything I find has consequenses for the game and the match-ups, and the unit just feels redundant atm.
So what about having only the Immortal in Starbow, and not the Marauder?
The races would look like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
Gateway/Warpgate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT (Archon)
Robotic facility: Immortal, Observer, Warp Prism, Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier, Arbiter
Barrack: Marine, Reaper, Medic Ghost (Note I am talking about the modified Marine + Reaper now, in the post linked above)
Factory: Vulture, Tank, Goliath (Modified Vulture and Tank, as explained in the post linked above)
Starport: Viking, Dropship, Banshee, Vessel, BC
The problem is that Protoss would have 2 more units compared to Terran. 14 vs 12. It might not be the biggest deal in the world. But I would prefer if races have a even number of units, or at least 12 vs 13 or something. (Not a gap of 2-3 units in difference.)
So would Terran need another unit? Firebat? Marauder? I do not think anyone of them feels that exciting, and I doubt the first one would contribute that much.
Should Protoss need one less unit?
What could it be?
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe the Arbiter?
It was great in BW, but I have never been impressed with it in Starbow. It is a deathball unit. Look at combats with them - Protoss packs their ball together to gain protection from Cloaking field. Recall allows the Arbiter to teleport one deathball from location A to location B.
What can we do instead?
- Give a modified version of Stasis Field to the High templar. Requires upgrade at Templar archieves. 100 energy. Long cast range. Stasis 2-4 units/static defence for X seconds in a small area.
- Give a modified version of Recall to the Sentinel. Requires upgrade at Fleet beacom. Costs lot of energy. Teleport 4-6 units to the Sentinel.
Since Sentinels are cheaper than Arbiters, we might see more smaller Recalls all over the map, or if the Sentinels travel together, they can work as a large Recall. And that kinda gives us the same excitement as Overlord doom drops - 8 Overlords fly over the Turrets, only 5 survives into the base. (Compared to Arbiter who is either all or nothing.)
Ok, how would P look like now?
+ Show Spoiler +Gateway/Warpgate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT (Archon)
Robotic facility: Immortal, Observer, Warp Prism, Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier
HT - Hallucination, Storm, "Stasis Field" from Templar Archives
Sentinel - Null Field, Safeguard, Recall from Fleet Beacon
Tier 1: Zealot, Stalker
Tier 2: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Immortal, Warp Prism, Observer, Blink, Charge, Warp tech (
Requires upgrade + Twilight council?)
Tier 3: DT, HT, Archon, Reaver, Carrier, Storm, Recall on Sentinel, "Stasis field" on HT
Not as insane lategame anymore. More midgame strength. One more core unit.
Three strong tech choices in all match-ups?:
Twilight council + Templar archives: Blink, Charge, Warp gate, HT with new spell, DT, Archon
Robotic tech: Immortal, Warp prism, Observer, Reaver
Stargate: Corsair, Scout (maybe pimped), Sentinel with Recall, Carrier
Lots of diversity. Ways of dealing with Tanks, ways of breaking contains, good synergy between slow Immortals/Archons and small Recall at Sentinel. And so on.
To sum this up, I kinda feel like there are three ways to go ATM for TvP:
1) Either I remove the Immortal/Marauder and go for the "solution" posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=341#6802
2) I let the Immortal be left in the game, and just rearrange the Arbiter as described in this post, and implement the Terran TvP modifications described in the linked post. (As an other method of solving the same match-up problems)
3) I, and everyone who wanna participate, continue to look for a solution where both Marauder and Immortals are in the game.
Hope this made some kind of sense.
Thoughts?
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Oh, btw Viking ground dmg is 10 with 0.83 attack speed. Mass vikings + few banshees can rape zerg players. Watch my latest stream... http://www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow
Maybe I just played bad though....
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I do like the immortal-inclusive solution... With Immortals you can stay on tier 2 longer, which gives you more resources for units and econ.
I will try to think of a solution to the marauder, but nothing is coming to mind atm.
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http://drop.sc/351729
Just wanted to upload this bio vs mech replay of Solid vs me today. From this game I'd say, I like the marauder in this matchup. Note, this was my first dig into bio vs mech in Starbow. And I believe it didnt go too badly...
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So... I have thought of a (very weird) potential fix for the maruader.
The marauder's problem, as of now, is lack of a role. In SC2, it's role was as a bio anti-armor. In Starbow, that role is very limited, and with the proposed marine buff almost non-existent. So, the only way to keep the marauder in the game, is to come up with a new role for it. But, what role could it possibly have?
According to fluff, marauders shoot grenades.
...grenades...
Yes, it is a very, very weird concept. But, what if we had the marauder deal splash damage?
With the proposed marine changes, bio becomes less effective against non-armored units. The splash marauder could cover that easily. It would also make bio drops more desirable, because low-cost splash damage vs workers=profit.
I'm not very good with calculations, but what would happen if we had the marauder do, say, 12 damage, 6 vs armored, archon sized splash? Would this make a new role for the marauder? Would it mess with balance? If it turns out being too strong, we could move marauder to techlab only (as in SC2) and/or change around the damage values.
P.S. I chose 12 damage so four marauders could kill a worker (and any others right next to it) in a single salvo.
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I think you should leave both the Immortal and Marauder in the game for a little bit more, so we can test it out more.
I do like stasis being on HT (makes it harder to land on tanks), and Recall being on Sentinels. No more mass cloak tho  Maybe we can bring back the Obelisk from sc2 Alpha? (building that grants aoe cloak)
As for your solution on the other page - it seems a bit convoluted. If marauders are good vs stalkers early, and help break cannons, why remove them and then give marines bonus vs stalkers and reapers a spell vs cannons? If vultures were a problem in Mech-Vs-Bio, why nerf them vs marines when the marauder exists as a great counter? of the problems you listed in that post, the marauder solves 3 of them. - T must have a way to punish P who only mass Stalkers
- T must have a way of dealing with Cannons
- T must be able to apply pressure/harass/attack, with units that are not needed to be in perfect position to work
If you feel that marauders are redundant, why not make marines less omni-utile? We have reapers with bonus damage to light, marauders with bonus damage to armored... and despite only being able to attack ground units and being higher on the tech tree neither of these units is that much more effective than simply using marines. Why not reduce the marine's damage vs armored (from 6 to 4?), creating space for the marauder. You can give them range 5 default as a trade-off.
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@Big Js TvT Replay
I just watched the game, and it was an entertaining game, but it also demonstrated some of the problems/dilemmas I see in TvT.
- First of all, the good thing: Your early Bio attack was stronger than the Mech defence Solid had up at that time, which is good IMO. (It shall be a risk to tech too aggressively, or fast expand. Earlier, Bio was no threat what so ever, so both players teched safely to Siege tanks, or always fast expanded.)
- Solid, who went pure mech, got up enough Tanks and Turrets and secured his entire base around ca 15 minutes into the game. There was no way your Bio drops could work anymore. And Bio can ofc not attack straight into Tanks. At that point of time, you switched to Tank production too. Since Tanks are 2 supply, and Marauders are 2 supply, every Marauder you had was almost wasted supply, who could instead have been a Tank.
The problem is that it lead to a stale game in the mid/late game. No more potential for harassment. Ofc Solid shall be able to secure himself. It is good that Bio gets a "clock" on it, so it must deal damage before the Turrets are up, and then transistion into higher tech units, as you did. But I think it is problematic if the match-up has high potential to reach a stalemate in the mid-game, with little room for harassment. (I´ve seen a similar pattern in a couple of TvTs)
And here we see the problem with the Marauder - it does not matter if I give it even more damage, or more HP. It will still melt in straight up engagements vs Mech (as it should), and it will still not be able to harass, since it depends on Dropships to get anywhere. Just as the Marine.
This is why I consider to do these changes I have already talked about:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Reaper gains back the G-4 Charge ability, which allows them to throw a bomb at target location. After 5 seconds, it explodes and deals maybe 80 dmg to structures, maybe 40 to units.
Since Reapers do not activate Spider mines, this would allow you to still be decently aggressive with your Bio play style, despite Spider mines, despite Turrets. Move to the edge of his base, destroy a Turret, send in the Dropship. Or just keep harassing/poking at the edges. which forces him to send defences there. With good splitting it is even possible to destroy lonely Siege tanks who guards the borders. (This might give both Terran players more room for harassment, and more multitasking both in offence and defence.)
- Make Tanks cost 3 supply and take ca 5-10 seconds longer time to build. This would make Bio more "supply efficient" compared to Mech, instead of being inferior. It would also make it more dangerous to tech straight to Siege tanks, which would open up more room for early game action/pressure. Siege tanks shall still remain very strong ofc.
- If Marines and Medics are changed, as I consider to change them, with Combat shield, more energy for Medics=more Matrix, and Vulture get a damage nerf vs light units from the start, the Marine + Medic + Reaper will do everything the Marauder is suppose to do in TvT:
- harass even if Turrets are in the way
- out-multitask the opponent via Drops/harassment
- do early pressure
- able to kill/snipe lonely Siege tanks out of position, static defence, structures etc
- while at the same time die in straight engagements vs Mech!
So I doubt the Marauder is needed, after all.
@Imperator
+ Show Spoiler +So... I have thought of a (very weird) potential fix for the maruader.
The marauder's problem, as of now, is lack of a role. In SC2, it's role was as a bio anti-armor. In Starbow, that role is very limited, and with the proposed marine buff almost non-existent. So, the only way to keep the marauder in the game, is to come up with a new role for it. But, what role could it possibly have?
According to fluff, marauders shoot grenades.
...grenades...
Yes, it is a very, very weird concept. But, what if we had the marauder deal splash damage?
With the proposed marine changes, bio becomes less effective against non-armored units. The splash marauder could cover that easily. It would also make bio drops more desirable, because low-cost splash damage vs workers=profit.
I'm not very good with calculations, but what would happen if we had the marauder do, say, 12 damage, 6 vs armored, archon sized splash? Would this make a new role for the marauder? Would it mess with balance? If it turns out being too strong, we could move marauder to techlab only (as in SC2) and/or change around the damage values.
P.S. I chose 12 damage so four marauders could kill a worker (and any others right next to it) in a single salvo.
This is actually what the Reaper can already do. It can upgrade a splash attack at the Tech lab (Requires Factory), which makes it deal splash damage like this on every attack. (Deals ca 10 dmg vs light units) The thought is to make it even stronger when harassing workers, but also give it a role in the army, for example vs Zerglings/Zealots. It barely sees any use in the army, since Marines with their current damage takes care of everything anyway. This is why I consider to adjust Marine damage from 6 vs all, to 5 vs all, 6 vs armored. (And gain Combat shield as compensation). This might open up more need for Reapers in the army.
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As for your solution on the other page - it seems a bit convoluted. If marauders are good vs stalkers early, and help break cannons, why remove them and then give marines bonus vs stalkers and reapers a spell vs cannons? If vultures were a problem in Mech-Vs-Bio, why nerf them vs marines when the marauder exists as a great counter? of the problems you listed in that post, the marauder solves 3 of them.
- T must have a way to punish P who only mass Stalkers
- T must have a way of dealing with Cannons
- T must be able to apply pressure/harass/attack, with units that are not needed to be in perfect position to work
If you feel that marauders are redundant, why not make marines less omni-utile? We have reapers with bonus damage to light, marauders with bonus damage to armored... and despite only being able to attack ground units and being higher on the tech tree neither of these units is that much more effective than simply using marines. Why not reduce the marine's damage vs armored (from 6 to 4?), creating space for the marauder. You can give them range 5 default as a trade-off.
I see two solutions to these problems:
- T must have a way to punish P who only mass Stalkers
- T must have a way of dealing with Cannons
- T must be able to apply pressure/harass/attack, with units that are not needed to be in perfect position to work
1) Via small adjustements, make Marine, unsieged Siege Tank and Reaper do this. (In an arguably more interesting way than the Marauder)
2) Let the Marauder do this, but remain quite unuseful in many other situations and match-ups. (Unless we find a way to overcome it)
With Marauders current bonus damage vs armored, they are mainly useful in TvP. There are almost no targets in TvT or TvZ where the Marauders "speciality" matters. In the early/mid game, they are almost only useful vs Stalkers.
(Unless I rearrange the armor classes, or change the damage bonus in some way. Maybe a flat damage value vs everything? 15 vs all? 10 vs light, 15 vs medium, 20 vs armored or something?)
With the Reaper-ability, Bio get a unit that can actually do harassment on its own, in the mid game, much cheaper, without the need of Dropships, and do the same things the Marauder is suppose to do: Blow up buildings, blow up static defence, snipe lonely Tanks, make Bio harass stronger etc, all throughout the game, and it is hard to become completely immune vs them.
This is why I feel the Marauder has no real role in itself, that other Terran units can already do.
I do consider to make Marines being less "the ultimate answear to everything", by lowering their starting damage vs light and medium. (Makes more room for Reapers in the Bio army)
But I do like that Marauders might get a relationship vs Banelings, due to them being armored, so it is harder to just A-move into Marine+Medic+Reaper armies. (But I am also looking at other ways to solve that.)
But I can ofc be wrong! Just because I have not found a solution yet, does not mean there is not a solution.
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I do like stasis being on HT (makes it harder to land on tanks), and Recall being on Sentinels. No more mass cloak tho Maybe we can bring back the Obelisk from sc2 Alpha? (building that grants aoe cloak)
Note that I do not say I must do this. I just posted it as a potential way to go, if we want to keep the Immortal in the game, remove the Marauder, and at the same time make sure all races have almost the same amount of unit types. If Immortal is in the game, then we can remove the Arbiter, move its both spells to the other casters so nothing is lost, and still remain at an "even" unit type number.
Mass cloak will be gone though, but would that be a great loss for the game?
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On July 27 2013 03:29 Kabel wrote:
No no no, no Hercules or "slow spell" on the Dropship.
If Terran drop capability is too weak/bad atm, there are many other ways to improve it.
... Oh well i'll add it to the archive, you never know if i can convince you that mech needs better mobility. Moving on
Alright about.that TvT game. That actually looked really good actually.
Bio can do some early agreesion vs a teching mech player, GOOD there is suposed to be risk in that stuff.
Turrets shows that dropplay is on a timer. Again good, aggression is fun, but there should always be the option to make a counter.
So here is what went wrong.
You got the extra bases than the mech player, but never really got the saturation on those bases. This is very important in starbow.
Don't basetrade like that vs the mech player, you are strongest on the field, where as he is strongest in the chokes. You take the battles to the chokes while letting him get away with having units on the field. I feel it was at that point the game turned really.
About the marauders lack of targets. I don't really think that is fair to say. It got no less "prefered" targets in Starbow TvT than it got in SC2. Only other armored land units in SC2 are other marauders, Tanks and Thor. Same lineup in Starbow only the Goliath replacing the Thor. You won't go ahead and claim that the marauder is useless in SC2 TvT because of this.
The marauders role in SC2 goes deeper than just how many preferred targets it got. For a meatshield it is stronger than hellions and handles better. It is hard to say if the same applies for Starbow Marauder vs Vultures with mines.
Okay about the Reaper. I don't know if you read my former post. But i don't mind repeating myself here. The reaper SUCK! It is easiest the bio in the biggest mess and you want it to do the work of the marauder which we seems to be making progress with. We are making NO progress with the reaper. I am not sure how to convince you that the current reaper will ALWAYS have zero use outside of the very earliest game regardless of how many gimmicky abilities, speed and pitiful AOE you add to it. Because it simply doesn't carry the Stats to be a 2-supply unit. And it takes alot of power to make up for lack of basic stats.
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Ah ok, I did not know about the reaper AOE. Maybe I should play as the other races before making suggestions about them 
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On July 27 2013 08:25 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +I do like stasis being on HT (makes it harder to land on tanks), and Recall being on Sentinels. No more mass cloak tho Maybe we can bring back the Obelisk from sc2 Alpha? (building that grants aoe cloak) Note that I do not say I must do this. I just posted it as a potential way to go, if we want to keep the Immortal in the game, remove the Marauder, and at the same time make sure all races have almost the same amount of unit types. If Immortal is in the game, then we can remove the Arbiter, move its both spells to the other casters so nothing is lost, and still remain at an "even" unit type number. Mass cloak will be gone though, but would that be a great loss for the game?
yea i was just agreeing that that option could work.
mass cloak wouldn't be too big of a loss. it was never too useful. (for me, at least). I just like it for lore/flavor reasons.
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... Oh well i'll add it to the archive, you never know if i can convince you that mech needs better mobility. Moving on
If mech needs better mobility, or T needs to be better to pick up stuff, I rather do something with the Dropship than adding the Hercules. (I have fixed the bug now so Dropships can finally pick up sieged Siege tanks again. Thanks XiA!)
About the marauders lack of targets. I don't really think that is fair to say. It got no less "prefered" targets in Starbow TvT than it got in SC2. Only other armored land units in SC2 are other marauders, Tanks and Thor. Same lineup in Starbow only the Goliath replacing the Thor. You won't go ahead and claim that the marauder is useless in SC2 TvT because of this.
The marauders role in SC2 goes deeper than just how many preferred targets it got. For a meatshield it is stronger than hellions and handles better. It is hard to say if the same applies for Starbow Marauder vs Vultures with mines.
Spider mines prevents the Marauder from attacking, assaulting, moving around, which gives it a more limited role in Starbow TvT, compared to SC2.
Okay about the Reaper. I don't know if you read my former post. But i don't mind repeating myself here. The reaper SUCK! It is easiest the bio in the biggest mess and you want it to do the work of the marauder which we seems to be making progress with. We are making NO progress with the reaper. I am not sure how to convince you that the current reaper will ALWAYS have zero use outside of the very earliest game regardless of how many gimmicky abilities, speed and pitiful AOE you add to it. Because it simply doesn't carry the Stats to be a 2-supply unit. And it takes alot of power to make up for lack of basic stats.
As I have said already, I am willing to let the Marauder remain in the game, if I or someone else find a good solution for it.
So go ahread, write a solution on how to adjust the stats so it plays a role in more match-ups, so we reach desirable unit relationships, and helps to create better game dynamics.
I will continue now under the day to find some kind of solution, since I aim to get a patch up tonight. Finally a totally free evening!
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If we can create a somewhat similar effect without the maurauder and the immortal, I honestly don't think it matters that much whether they stay in the game or not.
Regarding Arbiter: Keep it as it is and nerf stasis. Stasis on HT is IMO a bad idea since it overlaps a lot with storm. Cloack is an absolutely pointless ability but whether you maximize efficiency by clumping a medium group of units together or not is IMO irrelevant. Cloack neither rewards not punishes deathball.
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As I have said already, I am willing to let the Marauder remain in the game, if I or someone else find a good solution for it.
Well, what do you want it to do? I mean, this has been discussed to death, but I feel like the marauder basically does what it was supposed to do right now. It's more that, what it was supposed to do was not a lot to begin with.
The general problem simply lies within it being a burst damage marine with more health and less damage against medium/light. There are only very few units that you can't use marines against anyways.
Just as a comparison, that is how my dreamsetup for Terran infantry would look like, where every unit gets quite some roles:
Marine - multipurpose infantry; strong against lowtier and noncombat units; weak against hightier units, fortifications and splash
Marauder - assault infantry; strong against armored units and cheap fortifications; weak against mobile and lowtier units
Ghost - commando unit; strong against light and mobile units; weak against fortifications and armored units
Medic - support unit; heals/supports other bio units during and after combat
Reaper - needed?
when I compare that to what we have now I'd analyze it like this:
Marine - allpurpose infantry; mediocre against everything in low numbers; strong against everything when massed; weak against natural armor, splash and bonus to light
Marauder - assault infantry; strong against armored units and cheap fortifications; weak against everything that is not armored and does reasonable damage to armored
Ghost - strong against fortifications and expensive/caster units? (not sure, haven't seen it too much)
Medic - support unit; heals/supports other bio units during and after combat
Reaper - strong harass unit early on; maybe a useful splash support vs light later on (not sure, haven't seen it too much)
Also, I simply don't believe that bio will ever rely that much on dropping without medivacs as you and Hider hope to achieve, nor do I believe it must rely on drops. If someone wants to shut down drops with 20turrets, I believe the best answer is still to build 3more bases. Even if this may lead to stale gameplay sometimes. The Starbow economy easily makes up for the disadvantage you may have from fielding the inferior composition.
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Alright brainstorming abit for the dropship then. In my other post i already explained the reasons why the Dropship can't even carry its own weight right now(pun fully intended).
Its health is only 150. Warp prisms are at 160 combined, while having protoss regen. Overlords are at 200. This is despite the fact that the dropship is the only one of the three costing gas.
There are various things we can do for its carrying capacity. We could say that Bio as a rule only takes 1 slot (marauders included). It is going to be a tight ride but hey would make bio dropping that much more dangerous. We could also make an upgrade that increase the dropships carrying capacity by 2 slots , giving us that extra 25% slots per supply.
Finally does the dropship need to be 2 supply? You don't need to tell me why the warp prism is with its potential to load 20+ units into a main, but Overlord costs 0 supply. Lowering the supply to 1 for the dropship would be a stronger capacity buff than anything else suggested here, but it might just be what we need.
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I´m gonna continue on my writing spree with yet another post. I am simply thinking out loud now.
I have posted two earlier suggestions, both with some larger changes in TvP.
(One withouth the Immortal/Marauder)
(One without the Marauder, but with the Immortal)
Time for a third one, which will stay true to the content already in the game - both Marauder and Immortal will be in.
This solution, just like my earlier two suggestions, mainly aims to overcome the below TvP problems, while at the same time have small but positive effects for the other match-ups:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- T must be able to apply pressure/harass/attack, with units that are not needed to be in perfect position to work.
(Maybe even be able to pressure early)
- Warp in + Warp Prism, or Blink Stalkers, can not be so strong as a threat, so it forces Terran to secure every part of the base in the mid game.
- P can not be so efficient at warping in units at every base, to stop smaller Terran pressure so easily. Or T must have ways to deal with warped in units.
- T must have a way of dealing with Cannons
- Viking/Scout must be slower, compared to Warp Prism/Dropship, so it does not completely prevent drop play.
- Spider mines can not be as insane as they are. They prevent P from even moving towards T´s base, since it is so easy to just lose a big part of the army by a small misstake. (Observer slightly out of position)
- P must have a way to deal with a Siege tank + Turret, or just mass Turrets, since neither ground or air units can hardly engage such a position ATM.
- T must have a way to punish P who only mass Stalkers.
Ok, first Bio:
We need to make all bio units useful and have their own role.
- Marine damage changed from 6 vs all, to 5 vs all.
- Marauder damage changed from 10 vs all, 20 vs armored, TO 10 vs light, 15 vs all
- Marauder 80 HP instead of 100 HP.
- Reaper can upgrade AoE attack and the G-4 charges ability in the same upgrade.
These values might ofc not be perfect. The thought is to give each bio unit its own purpose.
We now get the Marauder as the stronger damage dealer vs most ground units. (Not insane vs armored anymore)
Reapers are still strong vs light units.
Marine is still the anti-air option, cheap and generally quite decent vs everything.
(But not as specialised as Reapers and Marauders are)
- Marine, Marauder, Medic production lowered by 2 seconds. (To make T able to produce at a more even pace vs Gateways)
- Matrix duration lowered from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. (I rather have it as a starting ability, rather than a late game option. If Marauder HP is reduced a bit, early Matrix might not have the same risk of being broken)
Upgrades at tech lab:
- Stimpack
- Marine + Marauder range incrased by 1.
- Reaper upgrade for splash and ability (Requires Factory)
- Medic +25 extra starting energy (Requires Factory, encourages more Matrix use)
- Siege tank increased to 3 supply, +5 seconds build time, stronger attack when unsieged
- Spider mines are reworked so they are easier to micro against, and not as extremely punishing to walk into.
(Lower dmg, but in a larger area)
- Vulture speed upgrade replaced by a damage upgrade vs light units. Vultures now start with less damage vs light. (12 instead of 20) Slightly faster speed from the start.
- Immortal damage changed to 20 vs light, 30 vs all. (Both medium and armored)
- Zealot gains back an activated Charge ability. (Few seconds boost, long cooldown) Makes them better at dragging mines.
- Goliath gains +2 range from the upgrade, instead of +3.
- Viking, Scout, Dropship and Warp Prism now have more similar speed. (Earlier Vikings + Scouts were faster)
- Warp tech still requires an upgrade at Cybernetics core. The upgrade requires Twilight council.
Almost everything else can remain as it is in the game.
I´m not gonna bore you all with yet another monster post of "why and how." Much of the reasons have been covered already in previous posts. But I think these changes, or something similar, might be another way to improve mainly TvP in the desired way.
The reason I post so much about it is since I will have a new patch up today. I want to make the "correct" changes, so I do not disapoint you all. Three alternatives so far
1) Starbow without Immortal/Marauder http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=341#6802
2) Starbow without Marauder, but with Immortal http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=343#6841
3) Starbow with both Marauder and Immortal (This post ^^ )
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@marine only 5damage vs light, marauder only 10damage vs light... this can only work if the reaper is really useful against light and may lead to a Terran needing to build marauders, marines and reapers in the right ratio which might be too vulnerable to techswitching.
I think especially zerglings will have a great time against this, and then a sudden switch into mutas or ultras will wreck a Terran that is forced to build reapers.
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Well, what do you want it to do? I mean, this has been discussed to death, but I feel like the marauder basically does what it was supposed to do right now. It's more that, what it was supposed to do was not a lot to begin with.
You are indeed right that I do look impossible when it comes to this. I would just prefer if the Marauder was not as narrow.
It fullfills a small purpose, just as the Firebat did. Would be cool if the unit could become a bit broader, since it is a core unit after all : /
@marine only 5damage vs light, marauder only 10damage vs light... this can only work if the reaper is really useful against light and may lead to a Terran needing to build marauders, marines and reapers in the right ratio which might be too vulnerable to techswitching.
I think especially zerglings will have a great time against this, and then a sudden switch into mutas or ultras will wreck a Terran that is forced to build reapers.
Good points.
Marines remain at 6 dmg,
Marauder 10 vs light, 16 vs medium and armored (Just to make it useful vs some additional units, besides the few armored targets. )
I just fear of giving Bio/Marauder insane damage, so we do not fall into the "SC2 trap", where Bio balls have insane damage output.
I will play around with some values in the editor, and do some testing at least.
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The reapers role is even narrower and it is much worse at filling its suposed role then the marauder. The best i can compare our current reaper to is that early stalker harras with +range over a bunker. It is only moderately more useful because it adds scouting and have some more potential to kill workers. But same thing applies, once the enemy starts to be able to shot back, that roles dies down and the reaper, unlike stalkers got really nothing else to add.
Right now i am speculating if it could work to scrap the reaper and have both marauder and the firebat in game, with an interchange mechanic. The firebat afterall was much better at dealing with zerglings than any iteration of the reaper. That could allow this weaker marine to happen. Techlab would be absolutely needed for such a versatile unit i think.
Lets for a moment forget thinking how this interchange mechanic would work and just focus on how the Bio lineup would be.
Reactor: Marine
Tech lab: Firebat, Marauder, Ghost, Medic.
I am thinking maybe the Ghost could be a reactor unit while still requiring the Ghost Acadamy.
I don't think bio balls will be this insane damage, kill everything composition rather it would be a more specilized unit comp where having the correct ratios is important and making sure you get the position and use ghosts to disable to highest AOE treats in the enemy army, and if all that works out then the bio will potentially be able to win with a decent margin.
We have been tinkering with the reaper for so long now, and havn't been able to find a good solution for its lategame viability. Maybe scrap it, go with this and maybe look at other roads for harassment.
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EPT
